Explain Your Rebirth, Mormons

[Shawn]

Most of you posters are claiming Latter-day Saints believe in spiritual rebirth. Please, in a paragraph or two, honestly explain how you have experienced this event as a member.

[Ray]

Why does it matter to you whether or not I or anyone else in the Church has been spiritually reborn? Aren’t you more concerned with learning how you can be spiritually reborn, and whether or not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can teach a person what it means to become spiritually reborn?

Take a look at the following scripture references and see what the Church and our prophets have to say about this. And btw, when I say our prophets, I'm referring to the people the Church accepts as people who were divinely inspired by God, including people mentioned in the Book of Mormon who talked about what it means to be spiritually reborn. If you do not accept our scriptures, you do not accept our prophets, and you have that much less information to work with to help you understand what the "born-again" process involves.

MAN, NEW, SPIRITUALLY REBORN

HOLY GHOST, BAPTISM OF

JESUS CHRIST, ATONEMENT THROUGH

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 03:35 PM

Most of you posters are claiming Latter-day Saints believe in spiritual rebirth. Please, in a paragraph or two, honestly explain how you have experienced this event as a member.

The inference, being that Latter-Day Saints who would respond, would or might be dishonest in their responses... and of course, that they really aren't reborn.

How's that for being offensive? Dishonest and ignorant both. Nice.

[Shawn]

Two posts from what seems to be active LDS posters, and neither of them can directly describe their OWN spiritual rebirth. Let's see, Latter-day Saints claim to be Christian, they claim to believe in spiritual rebirth, but two of their very own e-scholars who attempt to answers everything else under the sun but are unable to respond to a simple, straight-forward request. Is Bill Clinton on this board? Next thing I' ll read is some Latter-day Saint writing, "Well, I dunno that we really teach that today, Don . . ." Somebody who claims the LDS Church believes in spiritual rebirth, I'd appreciate a response that is direct and heart-felt.

Shawn

[Guest bat]

Dude,

Your intentions are bad, and everybody can see that. Good luck with the demanding of an explanation.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 05:48 PM

Two posts from what seems to be active LDS posters, and neither of them can directly describe their OWN spiritual rebirth. Let's see, Latter-day Saints claim to be Christian, they claim to believe in spiritual rebirth, but two of their very own e-scholars who attempt to answers everything else under the sun but are unable to respond to a simple, straight-forward request. Is Bill Clinton on this board? Next thing I' ll read is some Latter-day Saint writing, "Well, I dunno that we really teach that today, Don . . ." Somebody who claims the LDS Church believes in spiritual rebirth, I'd appreciate a response that is direct and heart-felt.

Shawn

Let me point something obvious out.

I have read only three post of this Shawn kid and have found them to be both insulting and dishonest.

How is this one dishonest? He says that neither myself or Ray can describe our spiritual rebirth. Anyone with a brain knows that because one does not address a topic, does not mean that one cannot address a topic. We assume this Shawn kid has a brain and so didn't mistakenly say that we could not. That leaves dishonest.

What a shocker... a dishonest Mormon critic.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 2 2004, 06:49 PM

What a shocker... a dishonest Mormon critic.

.....which is fine to point out, because no mormons are dishonest.....

[Snow]

Not the point bat. There are honest and dishonest Mormons, antiMormons and neverheardof-or-don't care-Mormons. However, Shawn's problems is that he is dishonest when it comes to proselytizing to his cause. What makes that hilarious is that Shawn tells us that he has undergone "a completely genuine and undeniable spiritual regeneration" that is so superduper magical that it "can only be described as otherworldly." Ohhh.

So while he proclaims that he himself has "a natural revulsion to sin and temptation, a fruitful desire to know, love, serve and please God," he is, in reality not revulsed enough to avoid calling Mormon he does not know dishonest, deliberately misstating what is being posting, and generally insulting them.

Oh and here's a bit of a kicker. When he says that he has undergone a "completely genuine and undeniable spiritual regeneration" - you know - the one that makes him insult Mormons and post dishonestly - does not succumb to dogma or religious doctrine, he conveniently forgotton to mention that his own view of Christ and the atonement is 100% dogmatic and driven by religious doctrine. So I guess it is bad to be doctrinally dogmatic unless you agree with his dogma.

This guy is as smooth as Major Spike Douglas.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by bat@Feb 2 2004, 07:00 PM

Dude,

Your intentions are bad, and everybody can see that.  Good luck with the demanding of an explanation.

Exactly Bat!

It most likely won't last so quickly click onto this link to see who we are dealing with here.

[Shawn]

Dear members of this board,

I am writing to offer a sincere apology to any and all I have offended by my probing. I have a tendency to dig in deep before I know all the facts and should have known I was making a mistake by trying to discuss such hot topics in an electronic medium. Before December 30th, I have never been on a message board forum before and I'm sure this is more than obvious. I will defend my honesty and intentions to a fault, but readily apologize at my feeble attempts to express them through this venue. I accept all blame for the anger I've caused and all the blame for phrasing things that have incited such responses (especially the responses from myself). You have each taught me an important lesson in communications, let alone humility, decorum and self-expression. I am fully committed to my doctrinal positions and stand to the death behind the purpose, intents, and mission of our ministry, but I have been guilty of inept execution and initiating contention and stand corrected, reproved and permanently removed from every attempting to communicate in this way ever again. Please forgive me.

In Jesus,

Shawn McCraney

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 07:59 PM

Dear members of this board,

I am writing to offer a sincere apology to any and all I have offended by my probing.  I have a tendency to dig in deep before I know all the facts and should have known I was making a mistake by trying to discuss such hot topics in an electronic medium.  Before December 30th, I have never been on a message board forum before and I'm sure this is more than obvious.  I will defend my honesty and intentions to a fault, but readily apologize at my feeble attempts to express them through this venue.  I accept all blame for the anger I've caused and all the blame for phrasing things that have incited such responses (especially the responses from myself).  You have each taught me an important lesson in communications, let alone humility, decorum and self-expression.  I am fully committed to my doctrinal positions and stand to the death behind the purpose, intents, and mission of our ministry, but I have been guilty of inept execution and initiating contention and stand corrected, reproved and permanently removed from every attempting to communicate in this way ever again.  Please forgive me.

In Jesus,

Shawn McCraney

Snow,

You're not allowed to use multiple usernames. I'm telling Heather!

[Guest Starsky]

Well....

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 07:59 PM

Dear members of this board,

I am writing to offer a sincere apology to any and all I have offended by my probing.  I have a tendency to dig in deep before I know all the facts and should have known I was making a mistake by trying to discuss such hot topics in an electronic medium.  Before December 30th, I have never been on a message board forum before and I'm sure this is more than obvious.  I will defend my honesty and intentions to a fault, but readily apologize at my feeble attempts to express them through this venue.  I accept all blame for the anger I've caused and all the blame for phrasing things that have incited such responses (especially the responses from myself).  You have each taught me an important lesson in communications, let alone humility, decorum and self-expression.  I am fully committed to my doctrinal positions and stand to the death behind the purpose, intents, and mission of our ministry, but I have been guilty of inept execution and initiating contention and stand corrected, reproved and permanently removed from every attempting to communicate in this way ever again.  Please forgive me.

In Jesus,

Shawn McCraney

You're a silly little guy, now aren't you? You know...there is medication to treat what ails ya.

[Jenda]

I have to say that I am not even mormon, and I am insulted by Shawn. Why? Because much of his phraseology is geared to demeaning other people (especially people who don't agree with him.)

Take this phrase for instance (off his website): Mary is a member of the LDS Church but has accepted Jesus as her personal Savior and is the greatest Born-Again Mormon I know. This phrase specifically points out how Shawn cannot believe that anyone who is not a born-again mormon could possible have accepted Jesus as their personal savior. (The key word in your phrase, Shawn, is but. Without the word but, your statement would have been perfectly acceptable.)

Shawn, believe it or not, it is entirely possible to present your side of a discussion without demeaning anyone else in the process. But it takes learnin'. And compassion.

One of the rules of this board is that we don't allow postings of anti sites, so I am going to delete the links you have provided for us. You can stay and present your discussion, but please delete the link from your signature.

Thanks. Jenda.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Shawn+Feb 2 2004, 07:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Shawn @ Feb 2 2004, 07:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Dear members of this board,

I am writing to offer a sincere apology to any and all I have offended by my probing.  I have a tendency to dig in deep before I know all the facts and should have known I was making a mistake by trying to discuss such hot topics in an electronic medium.  Before December 30th, I have never been on a message board forum before and I'm sure this is more than obvious.  I will defend my honesty and intentions to a fault, but readily apologize at my feeble attempts to express them through this venue.  I accept all blame for the anger I've caused and all the blame for phrasing things that have incited such responses (especially the responses from myself).  You have each taught me an important lesson in communications, let alone humility, decorum and self-expression.  I am fully committed to my doctrinal positions and stand to the death behind the purpose, intents, and mission of our ministry, but I have been guilty of inept execution and initiating contention and stand corrected, reproved and permanently removed from every attempting to communicate in this way ever again.  Please forgive me.

In Jesus,

Shawn McCraney

<!--QuoteBegin--Shawn@ Feb 2 2004, 07:59 PM

I am writing to offer a sincere apology to any and all I have offended by my probing. I have a tendency to dig in deep before I know all the facts and should have known I was making a mistake by trying to discuss such hot topics in an electronic medium.

Wait a minute. What do you mean by “dig in deep”? Can you be a little more specific with your “sincere” apology? What was it exactly that you were doing that you think most of us found to be offensive?

And which facts are you talking about? You implied that you are aware of all the teachings of the Church, so I’ll assume that you weren’t talking about those facts. Are you referring to the facts about us, or those of us who claim to be latter-day saints? Are you saying that since you don’t know all the facts about us, you shouldn’t have “dug in deep”?

And what do you mean by “hot topics”? Are you talking about the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I don’t have a problem with people trying to discuss such “hot topics”, as long as they do so with consideration for the people who have such beliefs. If you think you know something that can help illuminate our understanding, by all means, please share. But those “all means” should include the spirit of humility and love for us, as you try to teach us what you understand and consider to be better or more complete than what we understand. Many people are in error, and only the truth can set them free, as they feel the spirit of truth conveyed to them through the spirit of love.

Before December 30th, I have never been on a message board forum before and I'm sure this is more than obvious. I will defend my honesty and intentions to a fault, but readily apologize at my feeble attempts to express them through this venue.

The venue is not the problem. Can you admit that? You seem to be fudging a little on your “sincere” apology. This “venue” is probably one of the best reasons that people come here, and communicating to other people through written messages has many advantages.

For one thing, you can take all the time you want to compose your message, meaning that you don’t have to hit the “Reply” button until you are ready for your message to be sent. When writing your message, you can use a word processing program, and you don’t need to be on the internet except to send or receive other messages. And now, thanks to the gods, we have an Edit feature, with which you can improve and modify your message after posting.

You can also find what other people have had to say about things, with many messages dating back several months and covering lots of different topics. You’ll usually find that other people have had similar thoughts to your own, and reading the responses they got can save you a lot of time and misery.

In other words, don’t blame the venue. The venue was not the problem.

I accept all blame for the anger I've caused and all the blame for phrasing things that have incited such responses (especially the responses from myself). You have each taught me an important lesson in communications, let alone humility, decorum and self-expression. I am fully committed to my doctrinal positions and stand to the death behind the purpose, intents, and mission of our ministry, but I have been guilty of inept execution and initiating contention and stand corrected, reproved and permanently removed from every attempting to communicate in this way ever again. Please forgive me.

I don’t have a problem with forgiving people, as long as they say they are sincerely repenting and will try not to ever make the same mistake again, but their apology must be sincere. If you’ll address the points I mentioned above, and clarify your mistake and what you wish to be forgiven for, sincerely expressing a desire to avoid doing such things again, I will forgive you. That is what my Lord expects from me, and that is the type of forgiveness that I hope to receive from others when I discover that I have done something to offend them.

[Lindy]

One of the rules of this board is that we don't allow postings of anti sites, so I am going to delete the links you have provided for us. You can stay and present your discussion, but please delete the link from your signature.

RATS! I missed out on that link! And I was looking forward to reading some good entertainment today too!

[Lindy]

I received the link from someone and would like to apologize to Shawn for thinking bad things....I found nothing but a good feeling with :

BEHIND THE SCENES OF BORN-AGAIN MORMON

His 3 daughters and wife are members of the church, and I applaud him for teaching his children the importance of a relationship "with God through His Son"

I choose to find the good things in people and concentrate on that. Sometimes that just gets me in trouble...but that's who I am.

[Lindy]

Hey all,

I think that the man is sincere with his apology and that he honestly would just like to comment on his stance of what he believes...I don't think that he had any intention at all to have anyone think he was here to do any "anti" crap. Just a normal guy looking for a place to fit in and share, learn and do what we do. I agree with Snow.... let's give him a chance and welcome him instead of lambasting the poor guy right off the bat. And Mr Snow if you will remember I stood up for Redbone and didn't throw out aucusations at him.......huh huh huh?

I am going to respond to his post in and hopefully answer something he was looking for...

I will agree with you Shawn, that the Mormons do look at God in a different light. That was one of the reasons Why I joined the church...I had always thought of God having a body with form, and having the ability to walk, talk, etc. There are a lot of members who have lost sight of the importance of Jesus in His relationship to the church, I will give you that one, I think you are right, but I don't think it is based on a false premise, just a lack on their part to want to experience the joy of really knowing who Christ is or what He did for them. A lot of the members that I have ran across never had (or wanted to ) experience the repenting process to come unto Christ. They figure that once they are baptised it's a done deal....they are missing out on so much more...you know it and I know it. Whether they figured that they didn't need to repent of something or that they couldnt be bothered is not up to me to decide. I guess what I am saying is that I will agree that there are tons of members in the church who don't have a personal relationship with Christ. Because they go thru the motions but don't understand the feeling. It's not that it's not being taught, I think it is...it's just that the message is not being absorbed by many who hear it.

Does that help answer your question?

I appreciate anyone who loves their family enough to let them choose what they feel is right for them. And not try to dissuade them from the church, but just build on what is being taught in the church....I think that many of you missed the whole point of what Shawn was trying to say with his link.

Lindy

[Ray]

I think we should look for the good qualities in other people, Lindy, and I think we should also look for opportunities to help other people whenever we can. One of the things we can do to help other people is to share the truth about things that we know will help them to be happy. Whenever someone says something on this board that we know is not true, we should try to help them understand the truth, otherwise they might continue to not know things that would help them to be happy.

Shawn spoke out and said that, according to his understanding, Joseph Smith is not essential to our salvation. That is not true. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and through him God revealed some things that we otherwise would not have known. And why should we give thanks and honor to Joseph Smith, and appreciate him as someone who is essential to our salvation? Because of the teachings that God revealed through him, and for his efforts and diligence in doing what he did. God could have also revealed those things through someone else, I suppose, but then we would be praising and giving thanks to that man, whatever his name would have been.

Without Joseph Smith, or someone else who did the work that he did, we would not have the Book of Mormon, a record that describes the revelations that were revealed by God to the ancient inhabitants of the American continents. A record that had to be translated by the gift and power of God, otherwise nobody would have known how to accurately translate those records. A record that gives a second witness that Jesus is the Christ, the God of the whole world, and not just the God of people who lived in the Eastern hemisphere. A record that helps us to know and understand more about God than any other book on Earth, and helps to clarify things that are recorded in the Bible.

And what else did Joseph Smith do? He received the keys of the priesthood, and once again established the kingdom of God on Earth. He also received other revelations, and the guidance to help him help us better understand our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the way our Lord works with the inhabitants of the Earth to bring about our Lord’s righteous purposes.

Praise to the Man who communed with Jehovah! Disregard him and the work that God brought about through him, and you will never know what salvation is all about.

[Lindy]

Sorry Ray,

You know that I hold you in the highest regard, but I cannot say that Joseph Smith is essential to my salvation.

I realize that he was a prophet and I know the contribution he gave us translating the plates and restoring the church of Christ. But my salvation comes from Christ, not depending on my acceptance or what came from JS. He was a man..... and don't get me started on what I think of men right now...you wouldn't like me very much after I was done....

Yes, as a man he did great things....and as a man he screwed up IMO. I know that there are great men, and great prophets, but I will never say that my salvation rests on them, any of them.

I accepted Christ way before I joined the church...what I have learned since then has just been icing on the cake. My eyes were opened to a different way of thinking, a different feeling in my heart and the knowledge of things I had questioned. I like where I am at in my relationship with Christ.

I love what he (JS) did for the better of man, but JS just doesn't have a place in that relationship.

My 2 cents,

Lindy

[Guest Starsky]

I agree with you Ray.

I am seeing something these days that tells me we are closer to the end than we think...

Remember in the 4th Nephi:

22 And it came to pass that *two hundred years had passed away; and the second generation had all passed away save it were a few.

23 And now I, Mormon, would that ye should know that the people had multiplied, insomuch that they were spread upon all the face of the land, and that they had become exceedingly rich, because of their prosperity in Christ.

24 And now, in this *two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in apride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.

25 And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them.

26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ.

27 And it came to pass that when *two hundred and ten years had passed away there were many churches in the land; yea, there were many churches which professed to know the Christ, and yet they did deny the more parts of his gospel, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.

[Guest Starsky]

Of course there is this also:

3 Nephi:

20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his bdeath and sufferings.

21 Now there were many of the people who were exceedingly angry because of those who testified of these things; and those who were angry were chiefly the chief judges, and they who had been high priests and lawyers; yea, all those who were lawyers were angry with those who testified of these things.

22 Now there was no lawyer nor judge nor high priest that could have power to condemn any one to death save their condemnation was signed by the governor of the land.

23 Now there were many of those who testified of the things pertaining to Christ who testified boldly, who were taken and put to death secretly by the judges, that the knowledge of their death came not unto the governor of the land.

[Ray]

Originally posted by lindy9556@ Feb 3 2004, 02:01 PM

I love what he (JS)[Joseph Smith] did for the better of man, but JS [Joseph Smith] just doesn't have a place in that relationship. – [clarification added]

That doesn’t make sense to me. It is because of Joseph Smith and the teachings revealed through Him that you know many of the things you know about our Lord. How can you say that Joseph Smith plays no part in your relationship with Christ? Isn't that like dismissing the person who tells you something about someone, thinking that you would have come to know everything there is to know about that person without that other person's testimony?

Do you also take the credit for knowing everything you know about our Lord despite the testimony of other prophets? Does any prophet play an essential part in your relationship with Christ? If you consider the Jewish prophets to be essential in helping you to know the things you know through reading the Bible, I don’t see any good reason why you wouldn’t consider Joseph Smith to be essential in helping you to know the things you know through the Book of Mormon, and the other things that God revealed about Himself through him.

Btw, the original issue was that Joseph Smith is essential in our salvation, not merely our relationship with our Lord. Joseph Smith is essential in our salvation because of the importance of the teachings that God revealed through him. For future reference, if any prophet of God ever comes to you and says that God has a message that you need to hear, and that message affects your salvation, you can rest assured that your salvation will be influenced by your acceptance of that message and the person who delivered it.

[Lindy]

Does any prophet play an essential part in your relationship with Christ? If you consider the Jewish prophets to be essential in helping you to know the things you know through reading the Bible, I don’t see any good reason why you wouldn’t consider Joseph Smith to be essential in helping you to know the things you know through the Book of Mormon, and the other things that God revealed about Himself through him.

Sorry Ray, I guess I just missunderstood what you were trying to say.

Of course I think that JS has an essential part of the knowledge I have found, I won't dispute that at all. I thought that you were just saying that JS had an essential part of the whole salvation unto Christ thing. Of course he was essential in helping me to know those things I know, but I don't pray to him or give my life unto him...He was a great man in respect to what he has done...But the word salvation I do reserve for Christ.

I can be pig headed but I know what I feel. :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Feb 3 2004, 03:01 PM

Does any prophet play an essential part in your relationship with Christ? If you consider the Jewish prophets to be essential in helping you to know the things you know through reading the Bible, I don’t see any good reason why you wouldn’t consider Joseph Smith to be essential in helping you to know the things you know through the Book of Mormon, and the other things that God revealed about Himself through him.

Sorry Ray, I guess I just missunderstood what you were trying to say.

Of course I think that JS has an essential part of the knowledge I have found, I won't dispute that at all. I thought that you were just saying that JS had an essential part of the whole salvation unto Christ thing. Of course he was essential in helping me to know those things I know, but I don't pray to him or give my life unto him...He was a great man in respect to what he has done...But the word salvation I do reserve for Christ.

I can be pig headed but I know what I feel. :)

Wow...Now I understand where the dividing line has come...LOL

Salvation cometh only through Christ...knowledge of Christ comes through prophets and personal revelation.

Now we have the chicken and the egg question....which comes first...the prophet who gives the knowledge of Christ, or Christ's salvation?