Treasonous Reason Us

[Lyle]

Ah when to the heart of man

Was it ever less than a treason

To go with the drift of things

To yield with a grace to reason

And bow and accept at the end

Of a love or a season.

-Robert Lee Frost

Some reason that God does not exist. Some through this same reason prove that their gods are the creators of nature. those who reason, reason that god is and always was because...

James ch3

" 1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

3 Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:

8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?"

So what kind of reasoning do you guys trust? what do you think of these things? i believe in Love but there is no reasoning that can clearly justify this who can explain. John Grey, a world reknown psychologist says that men do not know what they are feeling when they are thinking" science confirms that it may not be possible for a mans brain to connect to his feeling part of the brain while thinking logically and vica versa... does that make men think clearer than women? or does that make women think more justified then men?

so i thought i'd throw this curve ball out there and see what kind of doctrinal support or antitheses can be found as well as opinions on the this.. thanks

[pam]

Lyle I think you've opened up a can of worms with the men thinking part. hahahaha Would that not be an oxymoron? Okay sorry...Will be interesting to see the responses.

[Justice]

Another topic I can sink my teeth into; another topic I have been intently studying and pondering.

I thought immediately of Moroni 7, which is actually the words Mormon taught to the church.

Mormon 7:

11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

Seeing this from Mormon's perspective brings new light to why this is. Why is it that a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water? Because the bitter has contaminated the whole. Think of it like poison. Poison is poison no matter how much good water you mix with it. Why can't a good fountain bring forth bitter water? Using the poison analogy, it is clear. Once you mix in the poison, it is poison. Both are contaminated for the exact same reason.

With that analogy, he goes on to teach this:

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

So, apply the principle we learned about poison water to evil in the above two passages and you see that evil is evil, no matter what the intent is. And, good is good if it is done with honest intentions.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

Is it possible that we are ever confused about what is right or wrong? Can the excuse be justified that we didn't know it was wrong? No, not members of the church. We have perfect knowledge what is right and wrong. And, if we don't believe this, and still try to justify ourselves, he offers the following clarification where there can be no mistaking:

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

I think we often mistake things that are "not bad" to be "good." We say, "I saw that movie and it was okay to watch because there was nothing bad in it." When, what we should say is, "I saw that movie and it was not good because it did not help me think about Christ."

There has been much talk of degrees lately. We have heard "good, better, and best" spoken of by several General Authorities. What they are saying is that the "best" things are the "good" things spoken of by Mormon. The best things are the things that persuade and entice us to beleive in Christ.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

Then, from that point in the chapter he goes on to explain how we can lay hold of every good thing...

20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?

The rest is worth serious study and contemplation.

So, to sum up, Lyle, I don't think it's as much as we are knowingly treasonous, or knowingly rebellious, but I think it's that we have downgraded what is good and we spend far too much of our time in good things, and too precious little time in the best things. We need to raise the bar.

The part that is most compelling to me is that as we spend more and more time doing those precious best things, those things that persuade us to believe in Christ, the Spirit instills in us a love and desire for those things. Those things become "delicious" to us. It is a feeling and sensation that we cannot have if we spend our time doing good or better things.

The flesh nature, if we follow it, desires us to seek happiness from the flesh, something the Savior said can never satisfy us. If we fill ourselves with the good things, or the things of the flesh, we will hunger for them again tomorrow. But, if we fill ourselves with the best things, or the things of the spirit, we will not hunger for the good things anymore, because we have found something far greater... a Pearl of Great Price.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Justice

[DigitalShadow]

So what kind of reasoning do you guys trust?

I trust logical reasoning. The rest is rather questionable and often incorrect and/or contradictory.

[Lyle]

I trust logical reasoning. The rest is rather questionable and often incorrect and/or contradictory.

Heres my question to you how can you logically reason that any Love is right or wrong? what reasoning can explain what a Dream is or the reason for it? or why does psychology work for some people and not for others? its not possible to reason that god exists or not. can reason prove anything that we cannot see? other than mathematics....which is only most accurate on paper.

so here is my delema... and i am a scientifically minded man. President Eyring, also a scientifically minded man discusses some things about rationality he says that it is important to know that satan wants us to yield to "Rules of Rationality". i quote from his book to draw closer to god page 115

"...there are voices competing for our belief. they claim authority of truth.

Some of those voices--some of the loudest--tell you that the questions which matter will yield to reason. And they even warn you that those who purport to answer questions without using their rules of rational analysis are to be distrusted and even despised.

...some are clearly lying some are not...We need to know. And we need to be sure."

so what makes rationality worthy? what makes it true if its like the tongue or the poisonous fountain?

[Lyle]

i believe that their are things in this world that are of no consequence except that they are waists of our time they do not do evil or good. i also believe that a man who is doing good is not sinning but if he can do more good then he certainly should simply because he will reap more from what he sows. who doesn't want blessings? many a prophet has said that something to the extent that there will never come a time as a faithful Latter Day Saint that your curiosity will cease and you will have learned all that there is to learn in this life that your day of rest will come in mortality.

[DigitalShadow]

Heres my question to you how can you logically reason that any Love is right or wrong?

Love is neither right nor wrong, it just is. Logical reasoning is the only source I trust when searching for the truth, but that doesn't mean feelings are irrelevent or useless.

what reasoning can explain what a Dream is or the reason for it?

There are many different theories for why we dream, but there are no widely accepted ones at the moment and I am perfectly fine with saying "I don't know" if there is not enough evidence to make a proper conclusion yet.

or why does psychology work for some people and not for others?

Because we don't yet of a sufficient understanding of the human brain.

its not possible to reason that god exists or not.

It is not possible to reason that an invisible unicorn exists or not, but is it useful to believe it exists if there is no evidence for one?

can reason prove anything that we cannot see?

Reason shows that many things we cannot see most likely exist and we use those things to better our lives, it's called science.

other than mathematics....which is only most accurate on paper.

We trust our lives to mathematic principles every day. We use theories from math and science because they provide testable, repeatable results. Logical reasoning is what brings us all the wonderful technology that we have today.

so here is my delema... and i am a scientifically minded man. President Eyring, also a scientifically minded man discusses some things about rationality he says that it is important to know that satan wants us to yield to "Rules of Rationality". i quote from his book to draw closer to god page 115

"...there are voices competing for our belief. they claim authority of truth.

Some of those voices--some of the loudest--tell you that the questions which matter will yield to reason. And they even warn you that those who purport to answer questions without using their rules of rational analysis are to be distrusted and even despised.

...some are clearly lying some are not...We need to know. And we need to be sure."

so what makes rationality worthy? what makes it true if its like the tongue or the poisonous fountain?

I don't think I can help much with your dilemma since I am not LDS, but I am wary of people who want you to throw out rationality. In my experience, the truth does not require you to disregard your rational mind or solid evidence.

[selek]

Ah when to the heart of man

So what kind of reasoning do you guys trust? what do you think of these things? i believe in Love but there is no reasoning that can clearly justify this who can explain. John Grey, a world reknown psychologist says that men do not know what they are feeling when they are thinking" science confirms that it may not be possible for a mans brain to connect to his feeling part of the brain while thinking logically and vica versa... does that make men think clearer than women? or does that make women think more justified then men?

so i thought i'd throw this curve ball out there and see what kind of doctrinal support or antitheses can be found as well as opinions on the this.. thanks

Contrary to the hype, hyperbole, and just plain foolishness that circulates about the net, Lyle, I want to make something absolutely clear.

Ideally, an LDS testimony is a reasoned faith, rather than a blind one.

We are never expected to choose between faith and reason- it's simply a false dichotomy.

We are frequently admonished in Scripture that we are to be profitable servants, and must not- cannot- be led in all things.

On spiritual matters- most especially our testimony of the Church- we are commanded to "study these things out", and then ask in faith and humility whether they be right.

We are expected to learn, to reason, and to discern between good and evil, and then to judge righteously.

When we kneel in prayer before God and ask for his guidance, it isn't a matter of "warm fuzzies" or any of the other sneering that people are wont to do out of ignorance, spite, derision, or self-important condescension.

Before God will give us an answer, we are expected to use our intellectual faculties- our knowledge, our "wisdom", our experience, and above all our reason.

"Lord, show me the way" as a prayer, is almost never answered. "Lord, this is what I think- is this what you would have me do?" is much more likely to be answered- and more edifying to the petitioner.

God is not a machine who automagically provides you with a pellet of distilled wisdom if you hit the right button or ask the right question. He is a loving and caring father who wants us to mature and grow to become like him.

Contrary to the stereotypes and the deliberate disinformation, we are not commanded to accept on faith alone, nor to accept blindly, nor to swallow meekly whatever happens to cross the pulpit on a given Sunday.

We are commanded to have a reasoned faith, rather than a blind one. Satan wanted blind followers- he wanted us to toe the line, do as we were told, and on that basis alone, would have redeemed us. God (and most of the rest of us) knew better.

Had we gone with Satan's plan, we would have learned nothing- virtue enforced is virtue denied. Just as you cannot know bitter if you cannot know sweet, there is no value in choosing the right if you cannot also choose the wrong.

Our mortal probation serves many purposes- but the penultimate one was that we learn to choose and reason for ourselves. That we learn for ourselves how to discern between the bitter and the sweet, the true and the false, the redeeming and the damning.

Without that experience, without that capacity, we are no better off than a child in a playpen, safe from all harm.

We only truly grow when the walls are removed and we move into the big, bright world of skinned knees, burned fingers, drinking from the garden hose and bugs up our noses.

Edited January 8, 2009 by selek

[Justice]

i believe that their are things in this world that are of no consequence except that they are waists of our time they do not do evil or good.

According to the scripture I posted, this isn't true.

It says if it persuades to beleive in Christ it is good, and of God, if it does not, it is of the devil. This is how we may have perfect knowledge whether something is good or not. Just as a fountain cannot be both good and bad, or even neutral, so are all things.

We just need to raise the bar above what we consider "not bad."

Read those scriptures carefully.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Justice

[HiJolly]

So what kind of reasoning do you guys trust? what do you think of these things?

We are given the ability to reason by our creator. I think He expects us to use reason in our lives. But we need to keep in mind the limitations and purposes for reason, emotion, and 'truth'.

Logic is great, but has two major limitations. First, all premises must be 100% accurate, not only in fact but in scope (or, application) as well. Not only that, but we must be sure we have included all applicable premises before we begin to reason. These things are absurdly difficult if not impossible in context of metaphysics. Second, we are essentially *emotional* beings. We like to think we are reasoning beings, but that is only a veneer. At heart, we are emotional. Thus our accuracy under fire in all things logical is highly suspect. Some of us are better at this than others, it is true, but we are all ultimately *emotional*.

i believe in Love but there is no reasoning that can clearly justify this who can explain. John Grey, a world reknown psychologist says that men do not know what they are feeling when they are thinking" science confirms that it may not be possible for a mans brain to connect to his feeling part of the brain while thinking logically and vica versa... does that make men think clearer than women? or does that make women think more justified then men?

I have to admit it: I'm a sexist. As a general rule, women find it easier to 'feel' or 'emote' than men do. And visa versa, where men find it easier to 'reason' or be 'dispassionate'. There are always exceptions, of course.

I think that feelings, emotions and intuition are closer to the true nature of God than logic, reason and mental calculations are. Thus we often hear people say that women are more 'spiritual' than men. That's not really true, but due to our observed gender-related proclivities, it appears that way to many. Again, it's a crude generalization, but I have to agree with it in general when we boil it down to essence, or exaggerate it to logical absurdity. It adds up to the roughly same thing, in my world.

The Jewish mystics believe in 10 attributes of Godliness, and actually have them in order, from 'closest to God' down to 'remotest from God' --- but all are attributes of God, nonetheless. Here they are:

1. The Crown

2. Wisdom

3. Understanding

4. Mercy

5. Justice

6. Beauty (atonement, balance)

7. Will (emotion)

8. Reason

9. Foundation (spiritual emination)

10. The World (physical emination)

There are 'oppositional' or contrasting attributes. These are:

Understanding <---------> Wisdom

Justice <----------------> Mercy

Reason <----------------> Emotion

All of these are brought into Balance via the Beauty of God, or, the Son. Just for your contemplation, Lyle.

so i thought i'd throw this curve ball out there and see what kind of doctrinal support or antitheses can be found as well as opinions on the this.. thanks

No doctrine here. Heh.

HiJolly (the mystic heretic)

[Moksha]

Some things we come to believe since they seem right and so we abide in them. They do not need proof since we are making a leap of faith in asserting these beliefs. I trust science, but as Blaise Pascal would point out, "The heart has its reasons, of which reason knows nothing".

[Lyle]

wow lots of very interesting point-of-views. i completely agree that reasoning is great but limited by our other facilities. that whole jewish mistic thing ....very interesting... never heard of such a thing. thank you all.

oh and by the way i would never throw out reason for anything. everything i do every job every task every thought is wrapped tightly around reasoning having motion keep in check my reasoning.

i am an emergency medical technician . i work for the national youth football league. and i have been trained to treat children in injuries but the extent of recognizing injury/ or the like throughout all my training was little many books simply say that children show no signs of failior of their body symptoms because the child body compensates like no adults is capible. that being true doesnt help any. children do show signs their very subtle signs and after witnessing them i have a changed point of view but many times i have to go on a gut feeling children are very dramatic when their hurt. they either pretend like nothing is wrong or like the world has stopped and their wont be cartoons when the sun rises tomorrow. but my gut deceifers that and my logic cares for any wounds