RodAZ Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I was wondering what you thought was worse, Excommunication OR requesting to have your name taken off the records of the church? When someone is facing a disciplinary council they might have a decision of excommunication or requesting they be removed? Thanks for your advice and feedback. My friend is facing a big decision. RodAZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalenfehl Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hmmm, being excommunicated means you have sinned grievously and need to get back on the path. This might mean your heart is no longer on the path or it was a moment of weakness. Wanting to be excommunicated means your heart isn't on the path and you're turning your back on the path although you haven't necessarily sinned grievously. In either event, you're turning your back but only one seems to indicate the possibility of returning to the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodAZ Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Thanks Skalen, You are right, but we were wondering about the " possibility of returning to the light." if you request your name is withdrawn. Maybe the better question would be which is BETTER! I appreciate your words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisyn Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I was wondering what you thought was worse, Excommunication OR requesting to have your name taken off the records of the church?When someone is facing a disciplinary council they might have a decision of excommunication or requesting they be removed?Thanks for your advice and feedback. My friend is facing a big decision.RodAZMy take:Requesting to have your name removed is basically being in open rebellion with the church and the restored gospel. Excommunication implies you committed a serious transgression but have not/will not voluntarily rebel. Does this make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwen Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 are you talking about willfully having your name removed so as to circumvent the repentance process? i would think if you want to come back you will have to face what you did regardless so may as well start the process with the disciplinary counsel and get it over with. if you don't want to come back then i guess it doesn't matter. you being said for reason to say something, i know you said this was about your friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) Thanks Skalen,You are right, but we were wondering about the " possibility of returning to the light." if you request your name is withdrawn.Maybe the better question would be which is BETTER! I appreciate your words I believe you are trying to split hairs. There is no difference between having your name withdrawn and being excommunicated - the process is the same, the result is the same and the repentance process afterwords would be the same. Other than that - if one request their name be withdrawn and their request was granted as apposed to being excommunicated - during the process it could be determined that excommunication is not necessary.The Traveler Edited January 26, 2009 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I believe you are trying to split hairs. There is no difference between having your name withdrawn and being excommunicated - the process is the same, the results is the same and the repentance process afterwords would be the same.The Traveler QFT.I thought of it this way: both separates one from God's church after having allying oneself with it for a time. Both are devastating and, if the spiritual causes for the excommunication/name withdrawal are not fixed, will result in one's eternal damnation in the hereafter.However, I've seen and heard multiple accounts where someone excommunicated was re-baptized; same thing for someone who had their name withdrawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtterPop Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Since when did Mormons believe in "eternal damnation"? Whatever happened to the telestial kingdom being so glorious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I agree, it seems that asking for your name to be removed is never right, unless youo don't believe the Church is true. If it is your intention to repent and return, then the only path is to let the disciplinary council convene. Then, accept its decision and work hard to be re-baptized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Since when did Mormons believe in "eternal damnation"? Whatever happened to the telestial kingdom being so glorious?'Eternal damnation' can be used to express the lack of 'eternal progression'. No matter how glorious the telestial kingdom is, there will be no increase of glory- those going to the telestial kingdom are forever barred from fulfilling the intrinsic potential of every human being.Of course, the kicker is that eternal damnation is as much a choice as eternal progression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtterPop Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) Your understanding seems to be a very harsh interpretation. I did a quick search on "eternal damnation" on lds.org, and that term appears to be generally used in connection with Satan, with those who followed Satan in the pre-existence, and with those who deny the Holy Ghost. Edited January 26, 2009 by OtterPop Typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalenfehl Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Are they not damned as well? Did they not accomplish their design in preventing the progression of those who gave ear to them? It's not so black and white in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtterPop Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 skalenfehl, Could you explain your comment? I'm really not sure who you're referring to, or who is preventing the progression of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalenfehl Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Sure, while Satan and his followers are damned, in that their progression was cut off when they rejected God's plan in the preexistence, those who gave ear to these tempters while in this life and deny the Holy Ghost effectively cut themselves off from the Lord. The only difference here is that Satan and his followers never received a body and are cast out, while those who did receive a body, born into the world, are indeed partakers of some glory, though it ends there forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtterPop Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 To me, "denying the Holy Ghost" -- that is, sons and daughters of perdition -- are people who have had a "sure knowledge" but then deny it. This hardly represents most people who have their names removed from LDS church records. Your post seems to assume that anyone who leaves the LDS church has been led away by "tempters." Real people with real lives and real struggles don't always fit into simple categories -- as you said yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleWyvern Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Your understanding seems to be a very harsh interpretation. I did a quick search on "eternal damnation" on lds.org, and that term appears to be generally used in connection with Satan, with those who followed Satan in the pre-existence, and with those who deny the Holy Ghost.I think there might be a misunderstanding of words here.If you understand eternal damnation as eternal punishment/agony/torment/etc., only outer darkness, or hell, fits that description. We believe that very few people will go to hell, as the qualifications for hell are incredibly "low," so to speak (you'd have to see Jesus in the flesh and deny he is Jesus, for starters).Eternal damnation is also used mostly within the LDS church to mean a lack of progression. With this description in mind, anything other than exaltation (part of the celestial kingdom) fits this description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtterPop Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 When I grew up LDS, I honestly don't remember the term being used at all. And, as I said, your description is not what a cursory glance at lds.org shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleWyvern Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 When I grew up LDS, I honestly don't remember the term being used at all. And, as I said, your description is not what a cursory glance at lds.org shows.It's not a common term because of the ambiguity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtterPop Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I wonder if you would find the term eternal damnation ambiguous if it was being applied to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JHM-in-Bountiful Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I don't come in here as aften as I used to. A few months ago this site took a major toll on my mental health. However this topic caught my eye. I fisrt joined the church back in 1989. I was semi-active up to 1993. I was dealing with personal problems and rarely felt the spirit. I thought the church was too judgemental. By 2001, I had my name removed from the church records. My family did not find out until a couple years later. Then in 2007 I went to a family reunion. I started to feel the spirit again. I disclosed some of the issues that were bothersome to me to my family. After some discussion, I contcted the local ward in my area and started the repentance process. I attended church for one full year ad was re-baptized in July 2008. My father did the re-baptism. I've gotten my preisthood fully restored to Elder status and have been to the Winter Quarter's temple to do baptisms. For the first time, this summer I will be able to attend the temple for my endowments. ANyone who has been excomunicated or had their name removed from the church records can have an oppurtunity to return to the church. You have to truly be repentant and dedicated to serving the Lord and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I wonder if you would find the term eternal damnation ambiguous if it was being applied to you. Nope, I would find the term biting and acerbic. Then again, the hit bird flutters.Eternal damnation is very real, however, it's not the 'eternal damnation' that some Christian churches teach (fire and brimstone, etc.). Also, there are multiple uses of the same term to imply the varying degrees of the punishment it is. LittleWyvern and I both explained its basic meaning earlier. In essence, it means any 'cap' on progressing in glory in the life after this, no matter where it is. Only those who inherit Celestial glory will have no cap at all, therefore inheriting eternal progression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtterPop Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) "The hit bird flutters." So, if someone doesn't enjoy being told by other limited, flawed, mortals who lack the wisdom and perspective of an eternal God, that they are damned to hell because their spiritual experience differs from that of Mormons, this is because they know those flawed mortals are actually correct? That's a simplistic point of view. When conservative Christians say that Mormons are not Christians, can I assume that Mormons "flutter" because they've been "hit"? (Just for the record, I think Mormons are Christians.)I was taught in Mormonism that there is outer darkness, there is salvation, and there is eternal life. I was not taught that it is all or nothing -- either eternal life or eternal damnation. And in my discussions with Mormons, they tend to very quick to point out that they don't believe in hell, that other churches have a "measure of the truth," and that those who kept their first estate are not damned. Edited January 26, 2009 by OtterPop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I sense you're angry at my remark. Your understanding of my meaning is entirely off base, as well. When someone hears a doctrine taught that affects them because of their lifestyle, they react in someway. If someone told me that all 21 year old white men who like to watch movies are actually Cuban in origin, then I would have to react someway to the information: either dismiss it, be amused by it, or look into the claim. If it were something much more serious, like my eternal progression, it would be no laughing matter. However, I would still be forced to react. If someone called me 'eternally damned', I would have to react in some way, and my human nature wants to revile against it. However, I have to look at my own life and see if I am actually living in a way that merits eternal damnation. What you were taught in Mormonism is all correct. It is not all or nothing, there are degrees of glory. However, the lesser degrees are not as glorious as the greater degrees. If we look at glory like a ray of light, and the farther the ray travels is the amount of glory each kingdom possesses, then ray representing the telestial kingdom is stopped ('damned') before the ray representing the terestrial kingdom would, which would be stopped before the ray for the celestial kingdom would. Eternal progression is expressed by a ray that is never stopped- going on forever. 'Eternal damnation' is a characteristic of all the other rays because they, somewhere, are stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleWyvern Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) I was taught in Mormonism that there is outer darkness, there is salvation, and there is eternal life. I was not taught that it is all or nothing -- either eternal life or eternal damnation. And in my discussions with Mormons, they tend to very quick to point out that they don't believe in hell, that other churches have a "measure of the truth," and that those who kept their first estate are not damned.You are absolutely correct here. :)EDIT: I fear we may be just competing with verbal gymnastics. Edited January 26, 2009 by LittleWyvern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtterPop Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) No, we're not. How can salvation also be damnation? That's what is being asserted here. Edited January 26, 2009 by OtterPop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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