NEW YORK HILL CUMORAH ARCHAEOLOGY by Alan C. Miner

[Hemidakota]

[AAF - email]

Editor's note: The geographical location of the Hill Cumorah where the Book of Mormon says the last battles of both the Nephites and Jaredites took place has been a controversial question.

The early Church members including Church leaders naturally assumed the Hill Cumorah in New York where the gold plates were retrieved by Joseph Smith was the Cumorah hill and battle ground in the Book of Mormon. Some students committed to that belief to the present day have developed highly imaginative geography maps around the New York Cumorah-Great Lakes region for studying Book of Mormon history that are a disservice to the historic reality of the Book of Mormon, These maps have contributed to scholars and students of early American history reasons for rejecting the Book of Mormon as fiction. In the absence of archaeological evidences in the 1830's there was no reason to consider Book of Mormon geography seriously. That began to change in the 1840's with discovery of extensive ancient Maya ruins in Central America where Joseph Smith located the land of Zarahemla in 1842 (Times and Seasons "Zarahemla" editorial, Oct. 1, 1842).

We cannot hope to defend or understand real Book of Mormon history based on an imaginary geographic setting. To get a correct geographic perspective, we encourage those who do no yet have it to order AAF's Book of Mormon historic geography study map and booklet on AAF's web site and to share this study tool with family and friends to help them discover the real world of the Book of Mormon. This study map brings the full historic geography of the Book of Mormon to bear on locating the Cumorah of Book of Mormon history in Mesoamerica. There are alternative prospects for the location of the Hill Cumorah with the most evidence pointing to the Tuxtla mountains of Southern Vera Cruz.

For those of our readers who may still hold a traditional belief in the sacred Hill Cumorah in New York as a matter of faith, we offer the following excerpt quotes from Alan Miner's "Step by Step Through the Book of Mormon" as a good starting point to begin shifting gears toward discovering greater truths both in and about the Book of Mormon. Other past research notes have examined archaeology and the New York Cumorah question (see AAF web files). While lack of evidence is not negative evidence, lack of evidence is a factor that has to be taken seriously, and should always help us to keep an open mind in objective historic study.

The following quotes show that the criteria identified in the Book of Mormon relative to the Hill Cumorah where the last great battle took place are not found in the New York Hill Cumorah. The criteria that do not fit the New York Cumorah do fit in Mesoamerica. The question invariably comes up in discussions as to how the plates got to New York if Cumorah is in Mexico. The answer is quite simple: we don't know. Moroni could have transported them there in Joseph Smith's day. Since Moroni survived for 35 years after the last battle, he doubtless had time after completing the Book of Ether and the sealed portion engravings (see Ether 4) to carry them over the 3,000 mile hazardous wilderness journey if directed by revelation.

***

Excerpts from authors compiled for “Step by Step Through the Book of Mormon” by Alan C. Miner

Letter excerpt from Langdon Smith of New Haven, Vermont in "No Artifacts at Cumorah" in The Book of Mormon Archaeological Digest, Vol. III, Issue I (Feb. 2001), p. 5:

Working with state archaeologists I get to see things the average person does not see. A while ago I saw the state site map for the state of New York. With my interest in history and pre-historic times, I looked around Palmyra. South of Syracuse on the east below this area there were several campsite areas as well as below Rochester to the west, but up around the Palmyra area it is several miles to the closest listed sites. - Having this interest in artifacts out I drove to the Cumorah area. I have made the seven-hour drive twice to search out these supposed battle areas. It was in the early planting season. The fields had been recently worked and planted. It was the ideal time, for it had just recently rained. There are some areas which cannot be searched, such as the pageant seating area and the parking area. About half of the area around the Hill is plowed.

I searched the field on the east then went to the farm north of the hill. I did not find one single piece of evidence of any kind. There were not any arrowheads, nor were there any pieces of broken flints that would have been left over from making points--the waste. People do not generally pick up the waste materials. There is about 75-85 percent waste in making artifacts.

Before one of my trips, I received the name of a man from a friend. His name was J. [sheldon] Fisher, an 86-year-old retired New York State archaeologist. He owns what is called the Valentown Museum. It is a large three story barn just full of antiques and all kinds of prehistoric artifacts. He is not a member of the church, but asked him about Mormonism in that area of Cumorah. It is unbelievable what he knows about history, etc. He stated that he had a standing agreement with all of the bulldozer and backhoe guys. They would be doing jobs in the general area. Many times, he said, "I would beat them to the job." But, of all these years he had never found any kind of artifact around the hill [Cumorah] area. He had read the Book of Mormon trying to figure it out. I have spent several hours talking with him on the area's history. His comments always come down to, "There just aren't any artifacts of the kind spoken of in that book around that hill. Oh, I hope this doesn't shake your faith." My remarks were, "It sure doesn't. The Church is still true. The Book is the second witness, and it came from that hill. But the battle, well, it must have been fought at some other hill."

***

Letter from Richard W. Jackson of Salt Lake City with Commentary by Joseph L. Allen, Editor, in Book of Mormon Archaeological Digest, Vol. III, Issue II (June 2001), p. 14.

The following letter is printed from: Richard W. Jackson, Salt Lake City, UT:

Richard W. Jackson wrote:

I obtained a TIME-LIFE book titled Mound Builders and Cliff Dwellers. It tells of two groups of native Americans that settled at the mouth of the Mississippi River and expanded northward clear to southern Canada. One, the Adena, started about 500 BC and ended about AD 100. The other, the Hopewell, started about 50 BC and ended about AD 400.

I send you herewith a print of the map contained in the interesting volume for your review. It is interesting to note that four Hopewell sites and one Adena site are located in western New York. Also one of each are located only about ten miles apart and about five miles away from the Hill Cumorah.

Joseph Allen responds:

Thank you for your letter and the map, which we have included with your letter. - The evidence of one small camping Adena site and four Hopewell sites DOES NOT establish the New York area as the place where the great Lamanite -Nephite Cumorah battle was fought. Nor does it take the place of the Olmec [Jaredite] evidence in the Gulf of Mexico [region].

Any criteria of Book of Mormon study should at least answer the following questions in an affirmative manner [partial list]:

Is there evidence of a high civilization living in New York from 1200 B.C. - 300 B.C. that:

a. built buildings?

b. had a written language?

c. had a centralized government with kings?

d had a religious hierarchy with prophets and priests?

e. developed a systematic trade system that included silks, agriculture products, mining, etc.?

f. had a city/state located by both a gulf and a narrow neck of land?

g. had a land southward where wild animals lived?

All of these evidences exist among the Olmecs of the Gulf Coast, and none of them existed in the area on the map in western New York, which shows one Adena camping site or the four camping sites of the Hopewell. The camp sites probably never exceeded more than 500 people per site. On the other hand, over 2 million Jaredites had been destroyed near the hill Cumorah prior to their last civil war (Ether 15:2, 8, 11).

Why would anyone propose New York to be lands of the Book of Mormon by suggesting that a few mounds would establish the identity of the last Nephite/Lamanite battle ground? Your map shows that the bulk of the Adena and Hopewell lived in OHIO, not New York. If tradition did not take us to New York, we would never consider that area as the final battle ground of the Jaredites or the Nephites-Lamanites.

***

David C. Asay Excerpts from “Why Study Book of Mormon Geography” in a pamphlet of The Book of Mormon Archaeological Foundation inaugural luncheon, April 19, 2002:

In a recent publication David C. Asay writes the following:

In recent years there was a Church sponsored project which included infrared aerial photography of the Palmyra, New York area seeking any evidence of fortifications. When I asked a Church official who was involved in this project what they found, he replied, absolutely nothing. He further stated that not only did they not find any evidence of fortifications, but they found no evidence of any large population groups to inhabit the area during Book of Mormon times.

Alan C. Miner Commentary:

As a follow-up to Asay's article, I called him and discussed the source of his information. He said that he had talked to T. Michael Smith, an archaeologist of the Museum of Church History and Art. I subsequently made a telephone call to Mr. Smith in which he verified numerous site surveys, but no infrared aerial photography or use of sophisticated equipment. He said no official archaeological dig had ever been done. However he noted that the ground in the area had been disturbed any number of times with farming and with the bulldozers and equipment needed to put in facilities like light poles and parking lots required for the Hill Cumorah Pageant. He said that as far as he knew, no artifacts had ever been found that might indicate that this was a scene of such final battles described in the Book of Mormon either for the Jaredites (Hill Ramah) or the Nephites (Hill Cumorah). [Telephone conversation with T. Michael Smith, April 22, 2002]

Concluding thought from Joseph Smith on distinguishing tradition from truth:

I feel that it might be worthwhile to leave the reader with some words of Joseph Smith. In 1844 he said the following: "I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions." (Joseph Smith, D. H. C. 6:183-185, January 20, 1844) I would hope that such is not the case with those who read this paper. --- Alan C. Miner

[Ghost_Rider]

Ok here is my take on this. Couldnt there be a few hill Cummorahs?

here is my therories on this so bear with me Hemi.

All you have to do is look on a present day map of the US and look for one city. Columbus. you would be surprised how many that you will find. Now take this one step further. Look up some small towns here in America. Or even better look at the link for the pionner trail that I believe our Good Friend Hemi gave us. Notice that in just a few short years certain citys had thier name changed.

Today what we call a place one thing. through out its existance who knows how many times that Hill or mountain has had its name changed. Also. Could not Moroni escaped the Hill cumorah site where all the battle actually took place and fled to the spot where the tablets where found and he called it cumorah?

I dont know...what say everybody else? I know i am more than likely wrong.

[Hemidakota]

This is what we all suspect as to naming rivers and cities after themselves or the old world from the days of Noah and the deluge.

Thanks...

[Ghost_Rider]

got ya hemi! thanks....

Oh on a side note...made a group for The BoM Archy studies...if anyone is interested...this is one of my hobbies is archeology.

[Moksha]

Moroni could have transported them there in Joseph Smith's day.

Yes, with a time-space portal he could have transfered them from the spot they were on in 400 AD, to the stone box (as well as the cavern) in the New York Cumorah hillside in the 1800's. Even the cavern could have been transported to another time and space after is served its purpose.

Couldn't there be a few hill Cumorahs?

How about a past, present and future Cumorah.

:)

[Justice]

Sorry, God has never worked that way.

I believe this country, and the Smith family, was prepared to be in the right place to find where the plates were buried.

I don't know all the answers, but I believe the plates were found right where Mormon buried them.

[justamere10]

I believe this country, and the Smith family, was prepared to be in the right place to find where the plates were buried. I don't know all the answers, but I believe the plates were found right where Mormon buried them.

I don't think many active Latter-day Saints question the location of the plates when Joseph Smith acquired them. It was near Palmyra, New York of course. Mormon gave those plates to his son Moroni about 385 AD. Moroni wandered for some 35 years after the battle at Cumorah.

But most LDS scholars today think that Nephite events we read about in the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica; primarily in southern Mexico, Belize, and Guatemala. It is most likely that Cumorah of the Final Battles was located in Mexico. There are two specific hills in Mexico that although unproven are favored by many to be the original Hill Cumorah.

You can read a lot of information about the Mesoamerica theories of Book of Mormon Geography at:

Mormon Sites - rising from the dust...

Or discuss them with Drs. Ainsworth and Poulsen at:

http://www.lds1.org

[rameumptom]

Moroni had almost 40 years of wandering, wherein he could bring the gold plates to the New York hill Cumorah from Mesoamerica's Cumorah.

The internal evidences from the text just CANNOT be satisfied for the Nephites in the New York area. Where Moroni finally buried the plates CAN be easily satisfied in the NY Cumorah, and is supported by the fact that is where Joseph dug them up.

As for all the other records, we gain the story of them being in the hill via hearsay. Brigham Young retold a story he'd heard decades before by Oliver Cowdery, about returning the plates. Given that the side of the hill opened up for Joseph and Oliver, chances are very good they saw it all in vision, or were transported to another location.

There is no evidence of a major battle in the past occurring there. Given hundreds of thousands of Nephites (and I would imagine as many Lamanites as well) were killed at Cumorah, we should find archaeological evidence.

One of the biggest evidences is written language. No written language was ever found to be used in North America. Mesoamerica, OTOH, not only had written language, but it was a form of hieroglyphic that could potentially be described as "reformed Egyptian."

[Ghost_Rider]

I agree with the wandering of Moroni. however there is texts that HAVE been found here in the states. It isnt reformed Egyptian but it IS Hebrew.

here is an excelent link for that.

Los Lunas Decalogue - Introduction

i have done a litle reasearch on this. One of the things that strikes me is that nowhere else is there a pictoglyph with a crown. only in this area. Also of note is that there is now a therum that the Anasazi learned a great deal about the Lunar and Solar charts from someone. As is evident in thier buildings and some of the solar events that take place with thier windows. will look for the link on this. but one of them ( i believe Pueblo Bonita) has a spiral on the wal and it only has light on it during one day a year. Also of note that some of the "Myan" buildings were quite large. The anazazi built impressive buildings also. One was 5 stories tall and had approx 800 rooms in it. The stone work also reminds me alot of the "Myans" very closly fitted together.

all of this is just a thought. but they say that the Hoikam culture is closly related to the Myans with ball courts and some of thier beliefs. Only through more learning about these great and ancient cultures and alot of digging and further analasys will we really understand them better.

[justamere10]

i have done a litle reasearch on this. One of the things that strikes me is that nowhere else is there a pictoglyph with a crown. only in this area.

Please explain the "crown" thanks.

[justamere10]

I agree with the wandering of Moroni. however there is texts that HAVE been found here in the states. It isnt reformed Egyptian but it IS Hebrew.

here is an excelent link for that.

Los Lunas Decalogue - Introduction

The book shown at the URL you provided was written by Barry Fell whose work has been pretty much discredited by scholars as I understand it. Those inscriptions probably exist, I haven't seen them, but the translation/interpretation is questionable.

[Ghost_Rider]

Los Lunas Decalogue - Petroglyphs

Its tied to the same article. As far as I know this is the only known example of this Pictoglyph anywhere here in america. All of it is an interesting read about the area and such. if you scroll down to the bottem you will see a picture of the crown. and if any one can tel me what the other symblol means I would be really greatful!

[Ghost_Rider]

The book shown at the URL you provided was written by Barry Fell whose work has been pretty much discredited by scholars as I understand it. Those inscriptions probably exist, I haven't seen them, but the translation/interpretation is questionable.

I am still trying to find the article that I found that was from a NON lds scholar. I actually have asked a friend of mine that is in the field right now to throw me the perverbial bone on this.

Alot of this is still up for debate. Just like any find that throws acheologist into a tizzy.*couchKinniwickmanCough* sorry. Kenniwick Man kinda had all the historians and Archeologist stumped for awhile and they really had to take a look at therois that they thought were engraved in stone. (no pun intended) The thing is that America has only had very little of its land surveyed for archeology. Alot has been lost. a prime example would be Newark ohio. the city was BUILT on an old mound complex that was very large. Itself a lunar and solar calendar so to speak.

If I find that article or my friend comes through with the link I will post it here or in the BoM Archeology group.

Edit: here is the other link that I remembered. this is from the OSU archy department.

Los Lunas NM Decalogue Inscription And I will agree that there is no diffenitve provenance for the stone. the area does greatly intruge me.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Ghost_Rider
Buddy from OSU came through!

[rameumptom]

I agree with the wandering of Moroni. however there is texts that HAVE been found here in the states. It isnt reformed Egyptian but it IS Hebrew.

here is an excelent link for that.

Los Lunas Decalogue - Introduction

I agree that Los Lunas is a good example. But it is closer to Mayan territory than it is to New York. Linguistic evidence shows that the Los Lunas area was settled in part by peoples further south. So there is a definite tie-in there.

There is also the Bat Creek Stone, found in Tennessee over a century ago, with hebrew writing on it ("For the land of Judea"). It dated to about 200 AD, so is on the far edge of Nephite period.

This could have been left by any number of means: such as a Nephite traveling through the area, and dying, so they buried him with his amulet. If Moroni can wander that far, so can others. Had it been a common language, we would have found much more than has been found.

Some people discount these two, but acclaimed Prof Cyrus Gordon has confirmed them and said we have to follow the evidence, not discount it.

There's also the chance that both Bat Creek and Los Lunas were left behind by a group distinct from the Nephites. Who's to say there weren't other groups that also made it here?

Edited February 2, 2009 by rameumptom

[Justice]

Mormon gave those plates to his son Moroni about 385 AD. Moroni wandered for some 35 years after the battle at Cumorah.

That's the thing, Mormon did not give *ALL* "those plates" to his son. Mormon felt the need to protect and preserve the plates passed to him by Ammaron. This is the whole purpose behind why he even made an abridgement.

Mormon 6:

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, (Large Plates of Nephi) and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

This single verse teaches us a lot about what happened. Mormon made a complete abridgement of the Large Plates of Nephi (from Lehi through 4th Nephi) and was about to give them to Moroni. He buried all the other plates (Large Plates of Nephi, Small Plates of Nephi, Plates of Ether, Brass Plates, and any other plates he may have had). He did not want these plates that had been passed down to him to be destroyed. I can only imagine Moroni was instructed the same thing by Mormon.

Shortly after this above verse, or one of the next things Mormon writes, can be found in the Words of Mormon.

You have to read these verses slowly and carefully:

Words of Mormon 1:

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

...

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, (Again, Large Plates of Nephi) down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, (Small Plates of Nephi) which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.

If you read this until you see what he's doing it becomes clear.

He's making an abridgement of the Large Plates of Nephi for Mormon to have while he wanders the land, so that he can bury all the plates that carry the promise that he would protect and preserve. He knows he needs to bury them, but he does not want his son, Moroni, to dwindle in unbelief because he spends the remainder of his days without scriptures to read. His only solution is to make a copy, including only the things of worth, or an abridgement, and give it to his son.

After he makes this abridgement of the Large Plates of Nephi, he finds the Small Plates of Nephi, which he preferred over his abridgement of the same time period (from Nephi through King Bejamin). This is easy to see because Nephi wrote the more spiritual things on the Small Plates, just as Mormon noted that he discovered. So, he pulls out his abridgement of the same time period and replaces it with the Small Plates, then writes a few words to bridge any time gap, then gives his abridgement and Small Plates to his son.

Now, whether he copied the Small Plates or gave the originals to Moroni is not mentioned. I believe he may have made a copy. But, either way, because he made this switch, the writings of Lehi were preserved to us when the Book of Lehi was lost.

Also, Moroni had to dig them up to abridge the record of Ether, and to write a few more words... which he supposed not to write when the plates were buried.

So, Mormon buried ALL the plates that were passed to him, but made and gave Moroni an abridgement he made.

We can conclude 1 of 2 things.

1: Moroni buried the abridgement in the same place the other plates were buried when he was finished.

2: Moroni unearthed all the plates and moved them to a different location.

Given the amount of plates and other things, and the sheer weight and volume, that were buried, and the importance they placed on those plates not falling into the hands of the Lamanites, I believe Moroni did not unearth everything else and move them. I think he buried the abridgement his father made with everything else Mormon buried, and sealed the rest according the the commandment he received.

We should all know and understand that any evidence we find (or don't find) in the earth should not be given more weight than the actual text within the book itself.

It is not beyond possibility that Mormon, in his fleeing from the Lamanite army in haste, carried all the plates and other things to the land Northward. It makes much more sense that he would feel safer carrying them when he still had an army, over Moroni unearthing them when he was alone.

I'm not saying Mormon and the Nephites lived in the Cumorah area, as others assume I must be saying when I explain this, but that he carried them away from his home, which was South and West, while he was fleeing the Lamanite army.

I find it very unlikely, even next to impossible, that Moroni would unearth all the records and carry them with him, when his father made an abridgement for him for the sole purpose that he could leave the plates buried and still have scriptures. If Moroni unearthed and relocated the plates, then there would have been little reason for Mormon to make an abridgement for Moroni.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Justice