What's so hard to understand about the Trinity vs. the LDS Godhead?

[Islander]

Are we both not going down the same road? Perhaps in opposite directions. :) The benefit is Bible study, which is ALWAYS a plus and never a minus. Perhaps you need a more positive outlook and not strive so hard in the defence of prophets who GOD defends and never asked anyone to defend....

Again, you fail to see or ignore the facts. You are the late comer. We were already here doing what the forum explicitly does, to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the news of the Restoration. You should question your motives for being here, not me. I was about my business when you came into the scene.

The issue is not about the messenger but the message. You have NO evidence about ANY of the other prophets, anyhow. you do not speak Hebrew or Latin to dispute and discredit a translation or ancient interpretation opf the sciptures. You are not relying on anything but your assumptions and acceptance of third party information for your position. I know what I know to be the absolute truth. I received a witness of the reality of Christ, the Atonement, the reach and magnitude of the word of God that you, to this day, absolutely do not posses, not can you possibly understand as of yet, judging by your understanding of the scriptures.

You take a position based on a very skewed read of the bible and we presented you with biblical scripture to illustrate our position, but you just ignore the point and move on to the next issue. Otherwise, you just reply with your opinion that it does not apply.

It is a fact that you do not understand the bible as you claim, not do you understand the nature of God, salvation and the Atonement. Rather than arguing at nauseum let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[LittleNipper]

Again, you fail to see or ignore the facts. You are the late comer. We were already here doing what the forum explicitly does, to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the news of the Restoration. You should question your motives for being here, not me. I was about my business when you came into the scene.

The issue is not about the messenger but the message. You have NO evidence about ANY of the other prophets, anyhow. you do not speak Hebrew or Latin to dispute and discredit a translation or ancient interpretation opf the sciptures. You are not relying on anything but your assumptions and acceptance of third party information for your position. I know what I know to be the absolute truth. I received a witness of the reality of Christ, the Atonement, the reach and magnitude of the word of God that you, to this day, absolutely do not posses, not can you possibly understand as of yet, judging by your understanding of the scriptures.

You take a position based on a very skewed read of the bible and we presented you with biblical scripture to illustrate our position, but you just ignore the point and move on to the next issue. Otherwise, you just reply with your opinion that it does not apply.

It is a fact that you do not understand the bible as you claim, not do you understand the nature of God, salvation and the Atonement. Rather than arguing at nauseum let's just agree to disagree and move on.

I take a literal understanding of scripture where it is historic. Everyone relies on third party information. Your Joseph Smith has been dead how many years? I do believe I have a leading of the HOLY SPIRIT to spread the GOSPEL message. Reformations are not to be preached or worshiped, they are to be understood.

[prisonchaplain]

Back to topic...seems as though the last few posts touch on the subject of what happens to those who did not know the gospel. While some Christians say that such folk were not chosen by God, and will burn in hell, and others go to the extreme of believing all will be saved, my understanding of Scripture is that such a question falls into God's domain, not ours. In other words, we're not directly told.

God is just and merciful, and Jesus is the way of salvation--the only way. My simple conclusion--I trust in God's justice and mercy, but take the call upon Christians to go and make disciples...to the uttermost parts of the earth as a divine commission. We cannot just relax and figure God will work it out. We must be about the Father's business.

Bottom-line: I will neither insist upon answers that call to question God's justice, nor assume answers that would diffuse our responsibility to spread the Good News.

[Islander]

Thank you PC:

As you can tell he (LittleNipper) is not interested in examining and discussing scripture. He just came out and said it (about Joseph being dead so long) when in fact we were not discussing anything related to Joseph. I pointed again and again that the issue is NOT the messenger but the message in the scriptures as a whole. Nowhere I pointed exclusively to the BoM. I brought, time and again biblical references which he conveniently ignored. Contention, that is his only strategy since he has obviously nothing else to offer.

[LittleNipper]

Thank you PC:

As you can tell he (LittleNipper) is not interested in examining and discussing scripture. He just came out and said it (about Joseph being dead so long) when in fact we were not discussing anything related to Joseph. I pointed again and again that the issue is NOT the messenger but the message in the scriptures as a whole. Nowhere I pointed exclusively to the BoM. I brought, time and again biblical references which he conveniently ignored. Contention, that is his only strategy since he has obviously nothing else to offer.

I'm sorry, I thought I was being clear that there are other very different possible understandings of said Bible references.

[Faded]

I'm sorry, I thought I was being clear that there are other very different possible understandings of said Bible references.

Your efforts seem very well calculated at trying to pick fights, tell people they are wrong, and do a lot of Bible Bashing because you think it will prove something. You do seem very keen to attack what you view as errors on the part of Latter Day Saint beliefs.

That is NOT the point of this thread. The point was to understand one another, not to attack one another.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly outlined in the Bible. The doctrine of the Godhead is also not explicitly outlined in the Bible. What we have is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the statement that they are one. The two doctrines seek to explain their "oneness." Making a Bible bashing debate of the matter is 100% pointless.

[LittleNipper]

Your efforts seem very well calculated at trying to pick fights, tell people they are wrong, and do a lot of Bible Bashing because you think it will prove something. You do seem very keen to attack what you view as errors on the part of Latter Day Saint beliefs.

That is NOT the point of this thread. The point was to understand one another, not to attack one another.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly outlined in the Bible. The doctrine of the Godhead is also not explicitly outlined in the Bible. What we have is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the statement that they are one. The two doctrines seek to explain their "oneness." Making a Bible bashing debate of the matter is 100% pointless.

I sorry if you have been offended, but the reality seems to be that the opposite is true. Some seem intent to prove my faith in the Bible to be in error and attack rather then try to understand Trinitarians. I never bash the "Bible." I have said little to nothing concerning the book of Mormon. Perhaps it is time to consider where your uneasiness is originating, instead of maybe laying the blame at my feet.

[Faded]

I sorry if you have been offended, but the reality seems to be that the opposite is true. Some seem intent to prove my faith in the Bible to be in error and attack rather then try to understand Trinitarians. I never bash the "Bible." I have said little to nothing concerning the book of Mormon. Perhaps it is time to consider where your uneasiness is originating, instead of maybe laying the blame at my feet.

For my part, it's really quite simple. There is a Biblical response to every single point you have brought up. I'm consciously refusing to be baiting into Bible Bashing. But I don't think you're understanding the term "Bible Bashing."

Bible Bashing = This is a common term to most Latter Day Saints. It refers to engaging in an argument where each side reads references or quotes the passages of the Bible that they feel prove their point of view to be the correct one. Party one will throw out their quote, and either think or say, "Ha! Take that! Isn't it obvious that I'm right and your wrong?" Party two goes to the passage they feel contradicts Part one, references or quotes their Biblical passages and either says or thinks to themselves, "Ha! Take that! You're the one believing in false doctrine, not me.! Isn't it obvious that I'm right and your wrong? It's right here in the Bible!"

If that was enough to prove anything there wouldn't be more than 10,000 different Christian denominations -- all of them thinking they are correctly understanding the Bible and that everyone else is just reading it wrong. All of them claim to be right and claim that everyone else is wrong.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Faded

[LittleNipper]

For my part, it's really quite simple. There is a Biblical response to every single point you have brought up. I'm consciously refusing to be baiting into Bible Bashing. But I don't think you're understanding the term "Bible Bashing."

Bible Bashing = This is a common term to most Latter Day Saints. It refers to engaging in an argument where each side reads references or quotes the passages of the Bible that they feel prove their point of view to be the correct one. Party one will throw out their quote, and either think or say, "Ha! Take that! Isn't it obvious that I'm right and your wrong?" Party two goes to the passage they feel contradicts Part one, references or quotes their Biblical passages and either says or thinks to themselves, "Ha! Take that! You're the one believing in false doctrine, not me.! Isn't it obvious that I'm right and your wrong? It's right here in the Bible!"

If that was enough to prove anything there wouldn't be more than 10,000 different Christian denominations -- all of them thinking they are correctly understanding the Bible and that everyone else is just reading it wrong. All of them claim to be right and claim that everyone else is wrong.

Well, see here you go attacking "Christians" again. 10,000 different Christian denominations----indeed. Very often the only differences between various Christian denominations is simply the country of origin and some evangelist involved in bringing the GOSPEL to that group. Sometimes one group splits over the color the inside of a church auditorium is painted, and of course, I'd be the first one to admit that everyone who says "LORD, haven't we done this and LORD, haven't we done that..." is a true "christian" at all. What they have is a social club and a desire to feel good about themselves; however, that is a different issue.

I really try not to simply present other verses to counter those provided to me, but to shed understanding on said verses in question, so that they might be understood in their true light within the context of where they are in the Bible. Context and audience of intent means a lot.

Edited March 3, 2009 by LittleNipper

[Faded]

I did try to do that already. What Biblical passages do you feel remain unexplained?

I'm happy to offer the LDS take on a few passages of scripture. Unfortunately, I haven't got unlimited time to do it all day though, so please keep the list short. I will have to take you at your word that you won't try to argue or "counter-attack".

[LittleNipper]

I did try to do that already. What Biblical passages do you feel remain unexplained?

I'm happy to offer the LDS take on a few passages of scripture. Unfortunately, I haven't got unlimited time to do it all day though, so please keep the list short. I will have to take you at your word that you won't try to argue or "counter-attack".

Explain Isaiah 64:6

[Faded]

Explain Isaiah 64:6

[6] But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

1.) I see no conceivable way that this verse has anything to do with this thread.

2.) The meaning of the verse is obvious. We cannot save ourselves. We are filthy. No matter how many good things we do in life, we are sinful and need the blood of Christ. Our iniquities have led us to stray from God and we must return to him, repent and gain his forgiveness.

It's very simlar to much of the imagry you will find throughout Isaiah.

"all we like sheep have gone astray"

"though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow"

"Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:" (people who are tied to their sins like beasts to their burdens.)

Every Latter Day Saint believes these things. We believe in Jesus Christ and we believe we are hopelessly lost if we are without him. So what is your point?

[LittleNipper]

1.) I see no conceivable way that this verse has anything to do with this thread.

2.) The meaning of the verse is obvious. We cannot save ourselves. We are filthy. No matter how many good things we do in life, we are sinful and need the blood of Christ. Our iniquities have led us to stray from God and we must return to him, repent and gain his forgiveness.

It's very simlar to much of the imagry you will find throughout Isaiah.

"all we like sheep have gone astray"

"though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow"

"Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:" (people who are tied to their sins like beasts to their burdens.)

Every Latter Day Saint believes these things. We believe in Jesus Christ and we believe we are hopelessly lost if we are without him. So what is your point?

So you do believe we are born sinful and that this (sin) is not a choice?

[Faded]

So you do believe we are born sinful and that this (sin) is not a choice?

Did I say that?

[LittleNipper]

Did I say that?

There is really no way around it unless you wish to contradict the verses you selected. The implications are explicit...

[Faded]

There is really no way around it unless you wish to contradict the verses you selected. The implications are explicit...

No there is absolutely nothing explicit in anything I said or anything anybody quoted. So I am at a total and complete loss what your point is. You've apparently decided to hijack a thread that is about the Trinity and the Godhead and discuss original sin. Why?

[LittleNipper]

No there is absolutely nothing explicit in anything I said or anything anybody quoted. So I am at a total and complete loss what your point is. You've apparently decided to hijack a thread that is about the Trinity and the Godhead and discuss original sin. Why?

Those that participate on this thread are the ones asking the questions. Does your question above have anything to do with the TRINITY? No, it does not. Ask me a TRINITY question and I will provide a TRINITY answer, otherwise, who is hyjacking whom and how?

[Hemidakota]

Has anyone seen the trinity god?

[LittleNipper]

Has anyone seen the trinity god?

Has anyone ever seen GOD in HIS entirety, could be just as easily asked. The Bible says no.

The Bible tells us that no one has ever seen GOD (John 1:18) except the LORD JESUS CHRIST. In Exodus 33:20, GOD declares, "You cannot see MY face, for no one may see ME and live." These Scriptures seem to contradict other Scriptures which describe various people "seeing" GOD. For example, Exodus 33:19-23 describes Moses speaking to GOD, "face to face.” How could Moses speak with GOD "face to face" if no one can see GOD's face and live? In this instance, the phrase "face to face" is a figure of speech indicating they were in very close communion. GOD and Moses were speaking to each other "as if" they were two human beings having a close conversation.

In Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw GOD appearing as an angel – he did not truly see GOD. Samson’s parents were terrified when they realized they had seen GOD (Judges 13:22), but they had only seen HIM appearing as an angel. JESUS was GOD in the flesh (John 1:1,14) so when people saw HIM, they were seeing GOD. So, yes, GOD can be "seen" and many people have "seen" GOD. At the same time, no one has ever seen GOD revealed in all HIS glory. In our fallen human condition, if GOD were to fully reveal HIMSELF to us, we would be consumed. Therefore, GOD veils HIMSELF and appears in forms in which we can "see" HIM. However, this is different than seeing GOD with all HIS glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of GOD, images of GOD, and appearances of GOD – but no one has ever seen GOD in all HIS fullness (Exodus 33:20). The TRINITY would be the absolute fullness of GOD, and so no, no human has seen the TRINITY.

[Hemidakota]

Hmm...after the first paragraph, I can discount any of the dispensatory prophets witness now. Now, we can visit the New Testament for the accounts of Paul, Stephen, and others that stand as first hand witnesses and after the Savior death can be thrown out also. Can you see your own demise?

If we are not personal witness, first hand, we need to investigate our own lives and ask why not.

[LittleNipper]

Hmm...after the first paragraph, I can discount any of the dispensatory prophets witness now. Now, we can visit the New Testament for the accounts of Paul, Stephen, and others that stand as first hand witnesses and after the Savior death can be thrown out also. Can you see your own demise?

If we are not personal witness, first hand, we need to investigate our own lives and ask why not.

Well, in the case of Stephen, we are presented with a vision he speaks out at his stoning as seeing. Both Paul & John have visions also. But I would only question if indeed they saw GOD's T-O-T-A-L glory, or one veiled or a dream. So I do not see a demise but an honest appraisial.

Interestingly, NONE claimed to see the FATHER, SON & HOLY SPIRIT united together. None of the Bible characters claim to have seen the FATHER. Only Stephen claims that he was seeing JESUS standing to the right of GOD's glory and he was being stoned at the time.

[bytor2112]

You need to prove this biblically. saying this counts for very little.

Imagine for a moment that your home has always been lighted by the same lamp. It is a beautiful lamp and gives off a very warm ambient light and seems to be sufficient to your needs. Everyone else enjoys this same lamp and agrees.

One day you are approached by someone offering you an additional lamp to light your home. No thank you, I have all the light that I need is the reply. But the stranger persists and explains that this new lamp will light your home in ways you can’t imagine.

Wisely, he accepts the strangers offer and tries the new lamp and discovers that it fills his home with more light than he ever imagined possible. This new lamp amplified the old lamp and lighted areas of his home that were previously darkened and the man was greatly pleased that he was approached and offered this wonderful new light.

[Faded]

You need to prove this biblically. saying this counts for very little.

This is a pretty ridiculous expectation to be quite honest. You've manage to quote a TON of passages from the Bible, yet you have not succeeded in proving anything at all. At best, all you've managed is, "I think passage X says Y" but in every case, it didn't actually say anything close to what you wanted it to say. Just your own wishful thinking trying to read into the quoted passages your pre-existing beliefs and assumptions.

So now that you've failed to actually prove anything from the Bible, you're saying that other people must now succeed where you have failed. How does that make sense?

I've already explained Bible Bashing and what I think of it. I can do it better than you, I promise. But what would the point be? You'd reject everything I said anyways. Can you honestly say that you are approaching any of these things with an open mind? The fact that you are in "counter-attack mode" and begging people to Bible Bash with you only proves that you do not have an open mind. You are welcome to attempt to convince me otherwise, but I doubt you will even try.

[LittleNipper]

Imagine for a moment that your home has always been lighted by the same lamp. It is a beautiful lamp and gives off a very warm ambient light and seems to be sufficient to your needs. Everyone else enjoys this same lamp and agrees.

One day you are approached by someone offering you an additional lamp to light your home. No thank you, I have all the light that I need is the reply. But the stranger persists and explains that this new lamp will light your home in ways you can’t imagine.

Wisely, he accepts the strangers offer and tries the new lamp and discovers that it fills his home with more light than he ever imagined possible. This new lamp amplified the old lamp and lighted areas of his home that were previously darkened and the man was greatly pleased that he was approached and offered this wonderful new light.

The darkness I see is when I concern myself with what heaven will be like for me and what I'll get out of going there, and how I might profit from teaching about such things. I find when I focus entirely on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, through HIS inspired WORD, I'm in a much better lighted place and CHRIST takes care of "me" so much better.

[bytor2112]

The darkness I see is when I concern myself with what heaven will be like for me and what I'll get out of going there, and how I might profit from teaching about such things. I find when I focus entirely on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, through HIS inspired WORD, I'm in a much better lighted place and CHRIST takes care of "me" so much better.

The lamp in the story was of course the Bible. The new lamp that offered more light is the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. If you focus on Christ through the Bible only, you will be missing much of the view. The view provided by ALL of these scriptures is indeed inspired by God and meant for all of us....even you Little Nipper.