Can WE Trust Our Bible?

JohnnyRudick · February 6, 2009

To see where this is all coming from see my posts in "Errors in the Bible".

Pay close attention to the posts there as I am not referring to all bibles in general as worthy of trust

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the

gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received,

and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in

memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

At first I my seem to be "all over the place" but hang in there with me.

Ok?

We will begin at this point with;

2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a

workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word

of truth."

From the above verse we can see that it is important to not only study the Scriptures, but to rightly divide the Scriptures.

For this study we will dwell mostly on the Bible.

Now why should you "study"?

The Bible tells us it is to show yourself "approved unto God," You do this by studying and being a "workman" this will allow you to "rightly" divide "the word of truth."

Why do so many not "rightly divide" the word of truth?

It is because they do not like to study, and they do not like to work.

So they teach things out of context, undeveloped doctrines, and doctrine that is not even there.

There is taught also no doctrine at all, which is an emotional Christianity.

They love but they love the wrong things.

They have no solid ground for what they believe.

The Bible tells us that your love is to be tempered with knowledge, and of course your knowledge is to be tempered with love. 1Cor.13.

1 John 2:15 &16. "Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth."

One place where the devil will get you off track is, he will allow you to study and learn much of the great Bible teachings, and that's that.

You have all this knowledge, but you do nothing with it.

James tells us that we are to be "doers of the word, and not hearers only," If we only learn, and learn, and not DO anything with what we have learned, we only end up "deceiving our own selves."

But if when we do "study," and we "continueth therein," not being a "forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:21-2:26.

The lazy Christian is in a mess here.

Once You have learned, you then have a responsibility.

And you are commanded to learn.

My, my.

Why is there strife in the Church?

Why envying and division?

Paul told the Corinthian church, "And I, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as to babes in Christ."

He says,I want to talk to you like a spiritual Christian, but I can't.

Why?

They are carnal Christians and cannot except the meat of the gospel. 1Cor.3: 1- 3, Heb.5:11-14.

They are still in the same teachings that got many of them "saved", but they can not grow from there.

Is it because they have no love for the word?

I don't know, but that is one thing that retards many today, and even gives most a false security. (This was one of the problems in the Corinthian church.) 1Cor.15:2, 2Cor.6:1.

The big reason for division in the churches is we do not rightly divide the word of truth.

I suppose that the churches today could be called "The babies in Christ Church".

They say PAUL'S GOSPEL?

Why are we not allowed to say "Joseph Smiths' Gospel?

When were you "saved"?

Were you saved before the birth or death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but after His birth?

Or were you "saved" before the restoration of the Gospel?

Most likely it was after the restoration of the Gospel.

Once in a while you will hear someone say, "O that doesn't apply to me."

It may, or it may not.

Is that person "rightly dividing" or not?

How do you know what part or parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Nehemiah, Psalms, Matthew, John, Acts, James, Hebrews, Etc..

Anywhere in your Bible?

How do you know which parts of the Bible are for you?

It is all for you, I know that.

All Scripture is good for "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" so that you will be equipped "unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16.

How do you know whether it is a doctrinal or instruction in righteousness verse for a Christian.

Both, or neither?

If you need help in understanding the words of God, He provides help within the Scriptures.

All you must do is study.

Always remember, Back up Scripture with Scripture.

Always let supporting Scripture have the last word in what you think, and what you believe.

NEVER try to support Scripture with Science, or History found outside the pages of the words of Almighty God.

Nor try to back up Scripture with opinion.

God always has the last word just the way He said it.

If it is a parable He will tell you. "The Kingdom of Heaven is as" and "Where-unto shall I liken the Kingdom of God?"

If the Scripture does not tell you it is a parable, analogy, or allegory, then it is not.

That is how we can know that the entire book of Genesis is absolutely factual.

The earth was created in six literal days.

The Bible says that the earth has been covered by water at least twice.

Eve really was confronted by the serpent and ate forbidden fruit.

Jacob wrestled with God. Etc..

You do not interpret Scripture, YOU BELIEVE IT! ROMANS 3:4

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a

liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy

sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

So what does Isaiah 40:8 mean?

Better yet, what does it say? It says

"The word of our God" (whose' God?)

"The words of our God shall stand forever."

(How long?)

"The words of our God shall stand forever."

No interpretation needed.

A forth grade education and the Holy Ghost is all you need to read and understand the King James Bible.

Here's another verse.

1Peter 1:23. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth for ever."

We are talking about the W O R D S of God.

Before I say anything else on this, lets look at another verse.

Isaiah 55:11. "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

When God speaks a word, it lives and abides and does that which God intended it to do. You can count on that.

So, 1Peter 1:23 tells us that the word of God in this instance at least, the word of God that all children of God are born by, who are "born of the Spirit, by the word of God,"

It says these words of God, liveth and abideth forever.

That's clear enough, huh?

So somewhere in Joseph Smith's day there had to be words of God that Joseph Smith could have faith and believe in.

And there was, and he did.

Wescott and Hort had not yet arrived on the scene to confuse the issue.

1 Corinthians 15:1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the

gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received,

and wherein ye stand;"

1 Corinthians 15:2 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in

memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

The Gospel preached.

Preached from the words of God can "save" a man.

How is he "saved"?

"[O]f the Spirit" by the word that is preached.

"nless ye have believed in vain.".

Very important point for another subject.

Better go for now.

I'm not done yet but it is all I can stand for now.

Hold that thought;-)

Bro. Rudick.

Elgama · February 6, 2009

my own view is we can trust the bible because we have a prophet and the Gift of the Holy Ghost its not needing to be that complicated.

-Charley

JohnnyRudick · February 6, 2009

my own view is we can trust the bible because we have a prophet and the Gift of the Holy Ghost its not needing to be that complicated.
-Charley

Ya got that exactly right;-)

Later Bro;-)

Or is that Sis?????;-]

Edited February 6, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
After thought;-)

Elgama · February 6, 2009

Ya got that exactly right;-)
Later Bro;-)
Or is that Sis?????;-]

Sis - my daughter is El(ana), my son is Ga(briel) and I am ma also means Moose You See in Norwegian lol

-Charley

BenRaines · February 6, 2009

Ah well welcome Moose. LOL

Ben Raines

JohnnyRudick · February 6, 2009

my own view is we can trust the bible because we have a prophet and the Gift of the Holy Ghost its not needing to be that complicated.
-Charley

My point (that I take forever to say) is, the prophets say "study". The Holy ghost bears witness to the words, the words being that they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11, which brought them knowledge of the things of God.

As you "study" the scriptures, you learn that not all things said are to all people at the same time or even the same place.

People say, HAH! contradictions!

No, you just have to "rightly divide" because the Scriptured have divisions.

One obvious being the New Testament and the Old Testament.

But we also have the space between the Church under Peter and the Pauline dispensation between Paul and Joseph Smith.

So, I point out, "rightly divide" and "study" folks;-)

There ain't no problem in Scripture that a copy of the

Book of Mormon, the D&C, P of GP, and the King James Bible and a few choice words from Latter Day Prophets cannot solve if you "study";-)

Later

Bro. Rudick

cjmaldrich · February 6, 2009

Great post, Johnny.

It's unfortunate that there are lazy people in our church and every other church in the universe. People who read the scriptures, but don't learn them. People who hear the prophet, but don't listen to him. People who discount things that they don't like, understand, or agree with and who put whatever they do like up on a pedistal.

The entire scriptures are for our benefit, from Genesis to the Articles of Faith (if you're using a quad) and every word in between. There is a reason why it is scripture.

BenRaines · February 6, 2009

Some time ago I read a very interesting book "Between the Testaments" by Richard Hozaphel. I think this is how his name is spelled. He also wrote "Woman at the Well" and a couple of others.

Between the Testaments covers the 500 years between the last writings of the Old Testament, Malachi and the writings of the New Testament.

When we think of 500 years that is a long time. Look where the US as a country has come in a little over 200 years. Look how the world has changed since the modern discovery of American Continents just a little over 500 years ago.

Ben Raines

lilered · February 6, 2009

I guess I have a little different perspective. Even given the inconsistiences in the Bible, we have the BM, PGP, and DC. These all testify of Jesus Christ, we know by reading them what we must do, to gain eternal life. We know we must go to the temple, etc.. We have inspired leaders to give us periodic counsel as members. Bottom Line we have the means to gain suffiecent knowledge to enter the Celestial Kingdom if we but put that knowledge into practice.

So, why is then so important to spend the energy as a member in developing these inconsistencies?

JohnnyRudick · February 6, 2009

Again, this is mostly for those who confuse missing Scripture from the Bible with those who just say the Bible is "wrong" or just not reliable.

I am trying here to undo some of the damage done by the preastcraft of this world in the various churches and dens of higher learning's such called.

Isaiah 55:11. "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

With all we have gone through up to now, why did God give to us His words?

So we may learn about Gods dealing with the people of this world, and His dealing with His people.

God gave His words for the growth of His people where ever they may be found or even when.

We know that Gods' people still need His teaching and guidance so just as those who have gone before us have had His words and are given new words as needed (unless they fall away and go live in a cave somewhere shutting Him out), so we today.

We still need to Know of His dealings with the children of men, and His people and we still need new guidance as needed to meet changing circumstances just as those who have gone before.

God gave His word for the growth of His people.

I can't stress this enough.

God always has His remnant. Rom. 11::2-5.

God is not through with His people yet.

Reading what God said here in Isaiah 55:11, He said His word would accomplish what He sent it to do.

Do you know what God has magnified above His name?

His word. Psalms 138:2-

"The fact of your attending a religious service no more assures your being a Christian then the fact of your falling into a lake assures your being a fish."

Here are a few verses for you to "study".

1. His words shall stand forever Isaiah 40:8

2. His words shall live / abide forever 1pet.1:23

3. His words will accomplish what it was sent out to do. 55:11

4. Hide His word in your heart that you might not sin Psalms 119:11

5. Scripture is by the Holy Ghost. 2Pet.1:21

6. The author of the Bible and all Scripture, the Holy Ghost lives and abides for ever. John14:16

7. The spirit spake by me. 2 Samuel 23:2

8. Gods' words are settled forever. Cannot ever be changed. Psalms 119:89

9. Gods' word endureth forever. 1 Pet.1:25

10. The words of the Lord are pure forever Psalms12:6&7

11. Gods' word shall not pass away till ALL is fulfilled. Matthew 24:35

12. You are to study gods' words so you are able to teach those God sends to you 1Pet.:3:15, Prov.22:20&21.

13. When God teaches you through His word, teach it faithfully. Jeremiah 23:28

14. The Bible God gave us. that so many in this world scorn in and out of christiandom has survived with very little changes, (and that in grammar and spelling mostly) a little over 400 years.

You are not to add or to take away from the words that God gives to you.

English is still the main language of this earth today. Instead of tearing down the words God gave us lets study so we may better understand Gods Bible.

Deut.4:2

15. God word is pure and needs no correcting. Proverbs 30:5&6

16. Those who do add or take away from the words God gives us will lose in the end.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to

do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it., Rev. 2:19

Much Later Most Likely;-)

Bro. Rudick

Islander · February 6, 2009

I often pondered about the fact that the NT is, for the most part, a collection of letters. The Apostles wrote to their friends and fellow servants. This was normal communication between "co-religioners" at a time when they felt in a very real sense disconnected, isolated and even persecuted by their fellow Jews everywhere.

They had no clue this letters would become the foundation of a world religion!!! Inspired and edifying as they are, they are letters; written at a time and place, with very specific topics in essence and subject to a context that we may barely understand. To make matters worse, we have language to contend with (translation).

I always read the NT with two questions in mind: what was going on at this time (context) and what is the Apostle trying to teach to the rest of the disciples/us (message/content). I always pray that the Spirit will make these things clear and evident to me as I try to grasp the message of the Gospel.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Islander

Elgama · February 6, 2009

I think most scripture has meaning for us today why the Lord preserved it in the bible - for example the parable of the talents, to the Hebrew people talents were money to us they are our talents but both work in the context of the parable. In fact talents as we use it works better.

Sheep and Goats we can get, its changed because to us they are very different but in NT Sheep had tails that went down and goats had tails that went up it was the only difference. But it makes it in someways more relevant to us today.

-Charley

JohnnyRudick · February 6, 2009

I often pondered about the fact that the NT is, for the most part, a collection of letters. The Apostles wrote to their friends and fellow servants. This was normal communication between "co-religioners" at a time when they felt in a very real sense disconnected, isolated and even persecuted by their fellow Jews everywhere.
They had no clue this letters would become the foundation of a world religion!!! Inspired and edifying as they are, they are letter; written at a time and place, with very specific topics in essence and subject to a context that we may barely understand. To make matters worse, we have language to contend with (translation).
I always read the NT with two questions in mind: what was going on at this time (context) and what is the Apostle trying to teach to the rest of the disciples/us (message/content). I always pray that the Spirit will make these things clear and evident to me as I try to grasp the message of teh Gospel.

That is a very large part of what "rightly dividing" is all about.

Very good point.

Thanks;-)

Bro. Rudick

Berean · March 6, 2009

I think it is in the spirit in which we read the scriptures...if we want blessings and instruction we will get it and if we are looking for "mistakes" we will find them. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide, as the person said, prophecy.

For instance there are two proverbs that go something like

Give ear to a fool so he can see the error of his ways

then almost immediately

Do not give ear to a fool or he will be wise in his own eyes...

OK this is obviously contradictory so I am an atheist?

Or, as my wise but still very Baptist father said, "Darned if you do darned if you don't"

JohnnyRudick · March 6, 2009

I think it is in the spirit in which we read the scriptures...if we want blessings and instruction we will get it and if we are looking for "mistakes" we will find them. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide, as the person said, prophecy.
For instance there are two proverbs that go something like
Give ear to a fool so he can see the error of his ways
then almost immediately
Do not give ear to a fool or he will be wise in his own eyes...
OK this is obviously contradictory so I am an atheist?
Or, as my wise but still very Baptist father said, "Darned if you do darned if you don't"

Again;

That is a very large part of what "rightly dividing" is all about:p

Bro. Rudick

JohnnyRudick · March 6, 2009

I often pondered about the fact that the NT is, for the most part, a collection of letters. The Apostles wrote to their friends and fellow servants. This was normal communication between "co-religioners" at a time when they felt in a very real sense disconnected, isolated and even persecuted by their fellow Jews everywhere.
They had no clue this letters would become the foundation of a world religion!!! Inspired and edifying as they are, they are letters; written at a time and place, with very specific topics in essence and subject to a context that we may barely understand. To make matters worse, we have language to contend with (translation).
I always read the NT with two questions in mind: what was going on at this time (context) and what is the Apostle trying to teach to the rest of the disciples/us (message/content). I always pray that the Spirit will make these things clear and evident to me as I try to grasp the message of the Gospel.

The letters that survived you will notice are not merely the letters of friends writing back and forth about church matters.

These are letters of instruction on how the Church of God ought to be run and instruction in personal matters in walking the Godly walk in Christ.

A large bulk are letters from Paul the Apostles sent by God to the Gentiles in the days between Paul's calling and the calling of Joseph Smith.

These letters were Scripture and treated as such by the Novations, Paterns and Montanists, Paulicians, etc. of the early Church by which we have the Scripture survived to this day.

Bro. Rudick

Edited March 6, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Spell check and Correction;-(

Hemidakota · March 6, 2009

"The fact of your attending a religious service no more assures your being a Christian then the fact of your falling into a lake assures your being a fish."

Awesome quote....let me add something that may have a few here, cast some stones: "For members attending church, temple, and callings, still doesn't guarantee you the highest order in the Celestial Kingdom when inner vessel is not appealing as the outer vessel."

I truly marvel over some of Traveler's brilliant thoughts. When I read the NT, we need to view as he stated and also the purpose of those in writing to the recipients.

JohnnyRudick · March 6, 2009

I truly marvel over some of Traveler's brilliant thoughts. When I read the NT, we need to view as he stated and also the purpose of those in writing to the recipients.

Exactly.

We need to first look at

When the instruction or whatever was written.

To whom was he speaking/writing.

Who was doing the speaking/writing. Was he apostate such as Balaam or in God's grace like Paul.

Wish I could find my notebooks but I know they ended up in the landfill:(

Anyway, these are very important things to look at and pray about before you go making any hasty interpretations on the verse/chapter.

Bro. Rudick

livy111us · March 7, 2009

Of course, anything by Bart Ehrman is good on this subject, but this paper is also very good:

What Remains of the Old Testament?

Its Text and Language in a Postmodern Age

David J.A. Clines

University of Sheffield

http://www.shef.ac.uk/bibs/DJACcurrres/WhatRemains.pdf

Hemidakota · March 7, 2009

Thanks for the link. I had added this to my growing collection.

Maxel · March 7, 2009

JohnnyRudick, your posts makes me so much more grateful for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the phenomenon Neil A. Maxwell called the 'synchronization of the spirit'.

JohnnyRudick · March 7, 2009

The adage really applies here. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The corrupted texts referred to are the ones I have been warning you about.

They are the text from the Vatican library, and from a waste basket in a monastery near Mt. Sinai.

These texts were developed by a scholar named Origen of Alexandra Egypt.

With the help of the likes of Irenaeus, Aquilla and Cyprian.

The contents of these Manuscripts were had by the King James translators in the form of Jerome's Latin version of the Bible and the Rheims bible from France.

We are told by most sources today Jerome translated from the Hebrew.

Yet his translation agrees with the Corrupt texts the above scholars, yet against the Masoretic text of the Hebrews.

Yes, Jerome's Latin Vulgate did agree with the 1582 Rheims version.

The King James translators knew better then to use these translations as they knew they were based on leavened manuscripts.

Most of the Scholars today know better also, yet...

As said earlier, these corrupt texts were had from Egypt. Alexandria Egypt.

The source of these corrupt, leavened bibles we are buried in today are from those Alexandrian philosophers of northern Egypt

These are mainly the texts of the bible that we are warned about in;

1 Nephi 13:25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in

purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

1 Nephi 13:26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve

apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest

the formation of a great and abominable church, which is most

abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken

away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and

most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they

taken away.

1 Nephi 13:27 And all this have they done that they might pervert

the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and

harden the hearts of the children of men.

1 Nephi 13:28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone

forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that

there are many plain and precious things taken away from the

book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

Those corrupt texts have had a very comfortable existence through out history.

Why?

They have been under the protection of the Roman Church.

The adage really applies here. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

These texts from the Vatican library were found in a waste basket in a monastery near Mt. Sinai.

These texts were developed by a scholar named Origen of Alexandra Egypt.

With the help of the likes of Irenaeus, Aquilla and Cyprian.

The contents of these Manuscripts were available to the King James translators in the form of Jerome's Latin version of the Bible and the Rheims bible from France and they chose to ignore these texts as they were considered unreliable.

We are told by most sources today Jerome translated from the Hebrew.

Yet his translation agrees with the Corrupt texts the above scholars, and against the Masoretic text of the Hebrews.

Yes, Jerome's Latin Vulgate did agree with the 1582 Rheims version of the Catholic Church and against the TR in critical places.

The King James translators knew better then to use these translations as they knew they were based on leavened manuscripts.

Most of the Scholars today are familiar with the true history of these texts yet they in their criticisms in most cases argue in favor of the Egyptian texts.

The KJB is based mostly on the TR or the "SYRIAN" or Byzantine text which is identical I'm told with the prevalent Greek text of the Middle Ages;

It is not the Latin Vulgate!

It is the Greek Vulgate of the first and second centuries, and it stands in opposition to the Egyptian texts, of the Vaticanus-B which the other Vatican manuscripts agree the most with, the (B) being the best represented of them.

The KJB from the Syrian text, which had it's beginnings in Antioch, Syria.

This is the Bible.

This is the Book quoted by God in the Book of Mormon.

It leaves a trail of blood that can be traced through-out history.

From where they were first called Christians, Acts 11:26, to "the end" this trail crimson trail is easily traced.

The old common Latin (not the high Latin of the scholars) of the Donatists, Montanists, Novatians, and Waldenses survived against persecution beyond belief.

The King James translators had three of these Bibles.

They had the works of Beza, Erasmus, and Stephanus, the Complutensian and the Antwerp Polyglots.

These Masoretic, Syrian and the Ana-Baptist Bibles all stood together against the Vatican bibles of France, Rome, and Egypt.

The King James translators were much more cautious then modern Bible perverters.

Next when I can come back I will start with;

Our man at the beginning of this article for instance.

Origen

JohnnyRudick · March 7, 2009