Clean your own shelf first

[Guest missingsomething]

By the WAY... Im too lazy to BOLD and UNderline... so I CAPPED... Pleeeeeeaaaassssssssseeeee

Dont take offense... I wasnt "yelling" but stressing... and lol Im still too lazy to go do that... Im on the laptop and the mouse sucks.

[jadams_4040]

I had a Bishop once give a talk about "cleaning your own shelf first"... meaning that we need to take inventory of our own lives and short comings before we judge others for theirs.

The one thing that bothers me about "christians" including latter day saints...maybe especially lds.... is that there is a very judgemental undertone to a lot of people. I think that is why some people become less active.

I know that some people feel the need to "correct other saints" that is their responsibility... but sometimes, I feel, that when people do not approach the gospel in the same way, some people think they are wrong.

I have read several scriptures that warn us that judging others is a serious transgression - yet, we often justify doing it. I take it that no judging means not judging others -for anything. However, I think its human nature to hear someone living differently and feel "offed" by it and want to "convert" people to our personal way of doing things or believing in things.

I am NOT perfect here -I know I do this sometimes too without even being aware of it... but I honestly do make an effort to limit my judgements. Or at least, withhold them.

Yes, Im on a soap box - but this really bugs me. So, the next time you feel the urge to challenge someone's faith, how well they adhere to the gospel, how they choose to live... remember - its better to be a good example and to bear your testimony about what you know to be true -rather than telling them whats wrong with their way.

Ok... :) Im off my soap box now! WHEW... that Zest box is smelly!

Just before christmas, our neighbor drove by on his four wheeler {we live in the desert} he drives his four wheeler every day and passes by our home on the way to his home, anyway i was out driving my truck on the other side of town, my wife calls me on cell and tells me "that weird neighbor" just came up on our proch then left! my wife was scared because this guy is really weird; i told her not to worry because at least he left. then when i got home we both went outside checked everything couldnt find anything missing or changed, we went back inside conversed about what in the heck was this weird guy doing on our carport? what was he nosing around for? where does he get the idea he has a right to nose around others private property? E.T.C...... then about three hours later i went out to get in my car to go the store, saw someting in the windshield wiper blade! It was a christmas card.

[Janice]

I avidly agree with everything you said, MissingSomething. Thank you. And, if I read Dove right, I think she agrees with you on this as welll...

I disagree with the argument that because Jesus did it..we have the right to do it... just because Jesus did something that doesnt mean WE, as in EVERYONE, has that same right - afterall, if that blanket statement were true - every person (man/woman/child) should have the priesthood. And we know that is not correct.

BUt I do agree with most everything else DOVE said.

I think she was saying the same thing you were, just different words.

Janice

[Guest missingsomething]

Just before christmas, our neighbor drove by on his four wheeler {we live in the desert} he drives his four wheeler every day and passes by our home on the way to his home, anyway i was out driving my truck on the other side of town, my wife calls me on cell and tells me "that weird neighbor" just came up on our proch then left! my wife was scared because this guy is really weird; i told her not to worry because at least he left. then when i got home we both went outside checked everything couldnt find anything missing or changed, we went back inside conversed about what in the heck was this weird guy doing on our carport? what was he nosing around for? where does he get the idea he has a right to nose around others private property? E.T.C...... then about three hours later i went out to get in my car to go the store, saw someting in the windshield wiper blade! It was a christmas card.

Wow...what a great example! How humbling. Thank you for sharing. you have taught me a great lesson.

[Dove]

I avidly agree with everything you said, MissingSomething. Thank you. And, if I read Dove right, I think she agrees with you on this as welll...

I think she was saying the same thing you were, just different words.

Janice

Thank you Janice, exactly :)

Missing Something, I did mean by the "priesthood authority," when saying when we have the authority to do so. I meant by this, when we have been given the office of the common judge of Israel, through the priesthood, i.e., the office of bishop. Am I making sense?

I had written quite a post before this one that I tried to submit, only to have it erased. Ironic. I don't know why this happened, and I wonder if I was to say what I was trying to say.

I will try it once more~

Saviour, I will follow Thee, (hymn), "Who am I to judge another, when I walk imperfectly. In the quiet hear is hidden, sorrow that the eye can't see. Who am I to judge another? Lord, I would follow thee."

There is an interesting JST given with the verse, "Judge not, lest ye be judged," in the bible. The JST reads, "Judge righteous judgment." I had a great opinion on this verse, but too tired now to try and rewrite it.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Dove

[Guest missingsomething]

Thank you Janice, exactly :)

Missing Something, I did mean by the "priesthood authority," when saying when we have the authority to do so. I meant by this, when we have been given the office of the common judge of Israel, through the priesthood, i.e., the office of bishop. Am I making sense?

I had written quite a post before this one that I tried to submit, only to have it erased. Ironic. I don't know why this happened, and I wonder if I was to say what I was trying to say.

I will try it once more~

Saviour, I will follow Thee, (hymn), "Who am I to judge another, when I walk imperfectly. In the quiet hear is hidden, sorrow that the eye can't see. Who am I to judge another? Lord, I would follow thee."

There is an interesting JST given with the verse, "Judge not, lest ye be judged," in the bible. The JST reads, "Judge righteous judgment." I had a great opinion on this verse, but too tired now to try and rewrite it.

Better! I agreed w/ your entire post then and now... but yes, I did get hung up on the first commment. You are so true- the hymn is perfect. Why didnt we think of that.. duh.

[Janice]

It has been my observation that there is a big effort made at LDS.net to not make a "final judgement" but to carefully correct misunderstandings about gospel doctrine.

Well said Apple. If, on the topic of judging others, you feel I need some correction, I welcome your insight.

Janice

[Janice]

Saviour, I will follow Thee, (hymn), "Who am I to judge another, when I walk imperfectly. In the quiet hear is hidden, sorrow that the eye can't see. Who am I to judge another? Lord, I would follow thee."

I agree with MissingSomething.... should've thought of this hymn myself! It's perfect! And Dove, I would LOVE to see your entire post that somehow vanished. I know it can be frustrating to put effort into writing something and then have it be gone... the idea of re-writing it is unpleasant. But I would so love to hear your thoughts.

Janice

Edited February 20, 2009 by Janice

[Janice]

As evidenced by the quotes you chose to focus on, i can't help but think, Janice, that to you judge and condemn are the same thing.

Connie, I am still hoping that you can offer some insight into how, by quoting Elder Oaks, I gave the impression that I am confused on the difference between judging and condemning.

Thanks,

Janice

[Connie]

Whoa, Christ commanding us to do the things he did doesn't give us the right to do them?!! Well, that's news to me!

Since we all seem to understand and agree with Elder Oaks that there are two meanings to the word 'judge' then I hope you can see that when we are told not to judge in scripture it is referring to condemnation and when we are told to judge righteously it is referring to warning.

So, if we're all on the same page, then herein lies my confusion. You all still seem to be saying that we should not warn our neighbor.

So let's talk about what it means to be a member missionary. Let's talk about what it means to be of the tribe of Ephraim. Let's talk about D&C 1:4-6, “And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them. Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants,” Let's talk about what it means to be a disciple or servant of Christ.

I would hope that whether truth is spoken by my neighbor or by my church leaders that I would have the courage to follow it.

Now how these truths and warnings are spoken can be very important. I'm with you there. How we chose to proclaim these truths can be all the difference in the world in how they are received. And many times it is best to do nothing because it is not our place. I'm with you there, too, but that does not change the fact that we need to be doing it. We simply need to make sure we are worthy of the Holy Ghost to guide us in how to proceed, whether to speak or be silent, how to word things, whether we need tact or boldness, etc.

[Janice]

Whoa, Christ commanding us to do the things he did doesn't give us the right to do them?!! Well, that's news to me!

Christ has the right to do some things that you and I don't, like issuing final judgments. In that context, we can't, and should not presume, to follow Christ in *all* things.

Since we all seem to understand and agree with Elder Oaks that there are two meanings to the word 'judge' then I hope you can see that when we are told not to judge in scripture it is referring to condemnation and when we are told to judge righteously it is referring to warning.

Ok, thanks for agreeing that we agree! I thought we agreed all along.

So, if we're all on the same page, then herein lies my confusion.

Mine too.

You all still seem to be saying that we should not warn our neighbor.

I didn't feel anyone said this.

Now how these truths and warnings are spoken can be very important. I'm with you there. How we chose to proclaim these truths can be all the difference in the world in how they are received. And many times it is best to do nothing because it is not our place. I'm with you there, too

I think we agreed on this all along.

but that does not change the fact that we need to be doing it. We simply need to make sure we are worthy of the Holy Ghost to guide us in how to proceed, whether to speak or be silent, how to word things, whether we need tact or boldness, etc.

Agreed. Dove and MissingSomething have both emphasized the need to judge *with righteousness* and, above all, to lead by righteous example.

I really think we agreed on this all along. I sometimes feel like you twist the words of others, or read into them meanings that were never there, but

If I am wrong, I honestly beg your forgiveness.

Janice

EDIT: I juust re-read my own post and realized it sounded much more contentious then I meant it too. I went back and tried to soften it up.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Janice

[applepansy]

Yes Janice, your post was contentious. You asked why Connie felt there was disagreement. The following in my opinion is why (and its not only your posts):

In post #11

Whats funny... oh.. even ironic... is that this thread was NOT about people being offended, but rather people with Judgemental attitudes.

That sounds judgemental of "people with judgemental attitudes," instead of being longsuffering and understanding that people don't often say things to be hurtful. When I'm corrected I don't jump to the conclusion that I'm being judged. I first look at what maybe my neighbor sees that I don't. I truly value the opinions of people with a different perspective than mine.

In post #31

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Sum it up, it is good to judge.

Wow. Really?

In post #40

So, all in all, I get nervous when we tell each other that we have a duty to judge wrong and to correct it. I, personally, am not ready to assume that I know all the facts, that I know better then the person who seems to be doing wrong, and that I am in the proper position to both judge and offer correction.

I prefer to err on the side on *not* judging and let those who's job it is to judge and correct do the judging and correcting.

I understand what Connie meant in her post #42

As evidenced by the quotes you chose to focus on, i can't help but think, Janice, that to you judge and condemn are the same thing.

In #48

I disagree with the argument that because Jesus did it..we have the right to do it... just because Jesus did something that doesnt mean WE, as in EVERYONE, has that same right - afterall, if that blanket statement were true - every person (man/woman/child) should have the priesthood. And we know that is not correct.

I'm sorry but this statement really concerns me. I need to understand some background here.

In post #49

how would that feel if it wasnt from your leaders but rather from your neighbor setting on the pew beside you.

WHEN it is my neighbor sitting right beside me, I now pay extra attention. Sometimes our neighbors see something we don't. Our perspective on our own lives is sometimes fraught with tunnel vision and a different perspective can be helpful in resolving an issue we don't see. I truly wish I had listened to one of my neighbors 25 years ago. . .I maybe could have avoided a lot of heartache. Instead I was young and became offended.

In post #57

If, on the topic of judging others, you feel I need some correction, I welcome your insight.

Why do you assume I feel you need correction. I did not post to you specifically nor was I correcting anyone.

I would like to refer everyone back to Traveler's post #47. He hit the nail on the head.

I think there is agreement with everyone here that we need to be careful how we judge others in day-to-day situations. But I don't see agreement with the other half of this conversation. . .that being our obligation to correct misunderstanding of gospel principles and doctrines. I also don't see agreement that we should be cautious of becoming offended when offense isn't intended.

I saw an example just this Sunday. We have a new couple in our ward. They are quite affluent and well educated. They have been in many leadership positions and have served two missions, and from her statements in the introduction to the lesson they have five perfect children all married in the temple with perfect grandchildren. He comes across as humble and when he makes an incorrect statement in Priesthood or Sunday Schook, he does not become offended when corrected. While his wife comes across as the opposite. She has been called to teach the TFOT lessons each month. Last Sunday she taught about keeping the Sabbath Day Holy. Our ward has several large families with small children. Some of her statements while trying to be instructional could have been taken as condemning, and a couple of sisters were in fact offended. Several sisters spoke up to clarify what was being taught. Both the sister teaching and those offended by her words learned something. First, don't make sweepting statements, and second, don't assume you're the one being talked about. The issues were resolved right there in RS meeting. . . nobody left with bad feelings.

I re-learned two things from observing this exchange. 1. Just because someone is being judgemental doesn't make what they are saying wrong. Maybe we need to look deeper into our own hearts and see if what they are saying applies to us. And, 2. Even if what is being said does apply to us personally we do not have the right to become offended. We can choose to be offended but by doing so we just push away the Holy Ghost.

What I see in this thread is that a concern was expressed and while we all agreed, there was the need for more understanding on the deeper meaning.

It is my prayer that as we exchange ideas and discuss gospel topics here at LDS.net, that we do so with less contention and more open hearts and minds.

With love,

applepansy

P.S. I would like to suggestion the following article LDS.org - Liahona Article - Christian Courage: The Price of Discipleship

[Janice]

It seems that no matter how hard I try to be agreeable, someone is telling me I'm being disagreeable. It seems that no matter how nice I try to be, someone is telling me I'm not being nice. It seems that no matter how clearly I try and state my point of view, someone implies meaning in my words that I never, ever intended.

My entire purpose for my original post in this thread was to tell Connie that I AGREE WITH HER!!

I am fairly new to LDS Mormon Network, and to the world of online forums & blogs in general. I am finding conversation on this web site, in it's entirety, to be a frustrating experience. Seems that no matter what I say, someone is picking my words apart and telling me how wrong I am. Once in a while I would not mind... in fact, I would welcome it. But when it happens with almost every post, it get's old. Especially when I am actually trying to tell people, "Right! I agree!" and then that person turns around and says, "No, you don't agree."

I think I prefer Feminist Mormon Housewives to this site.

But, sorry Apple and Connie. I'm not leaving.

Janice

[Janice]

This is the last I will say on this thread:

1) I am not comfortable with a blanket policy of "We must correct others when they are wrong." There are too many shades of "correct" and "wrong" for me to be comfortable with that blanket policy.

2) When people think of me, I want them to think of me as a non-judgmental person.

Janice Out (at least on this thread)

[applepansy]

It seems that no matter how hard I try to be agreeable, someone is telling me I'm being disagreeable. It seems that no matter how nice I try to be, someone is telling me I'm not being nice. It seems that no matter how clearly I try and state my point of view, someone implies meaning in my words that I never, ever intended.

My entire purpose for my original post in this thread was to tell Connie that I AGREE WITH HER!!

I am fairly new to LDS Mormon Network, and to the world of online forums & blogs in general. I am finding conversation on this web site, in it's entirety, to be a frustrating experience. Seems that no matter what I say, someone is picking my words apart and telling me how wrong I am. Once in a while I would not mind... in fact, I would welcome it. But when it happens with almost every post, it get's old. Especially when I am actually trying to tell people, "Right! I agree!" and then that person turns around and says, "No, you don't agree."

I think I prefer Feminist Mormon Housewives to this site.

But, sorry Apple and Connie. I'm not leaving.

Janice

Janice, I am sincerely happy you're not leaving. The point of my post was to respond to your statement:

I sometimes feel like you twist the words of others, or read into them meanings that were never there, but If I am wrong, I honestly beg your forgiveness.

I did not single you out in representing examples of disgreement. I had hoped that my post would shed some light on where the disagreement truly was.

The gospel is deeper than blanket statements. We get ourselves in trouble when we cherry pick. A example: "judge not lest ye be judged." Yet there is scripture and counsel from Prophets stating that we need to judge righteously.

Isn't clarification necessary, maybe not only for those discussing the issue but for those who come and read about LDS views?

applepansy

[Connie]

Janice, i am also glad you are not leaving. And i can definitely understand your frustration. All this forum stuff takes a great deal of getting used to or at least it did for me.

Thank you for softening up your post #61. It was rather hard to see the agreement with all those personal insults interlaced.

[Dove]

It seems that no matter how hard I try to be agreeable, someone is telling me I'm being disagreeable. It seems that no matter how nice I try to be, someone is telling me I'm not being nice. It seems that no matter how clearly I try and state my point of view, someone implies meaning in my words that I never, ever intended.

My entire purpose for my original post in this thread was to tell Connie that I AGREE WITH HER!!

I am fairly new to LDS Mormon Network, and to the world of online forums & blogs in general. I am finding conversation on this web site, in it's entirety, to be a frustrating experience. Seems that no matter what I say, someone is picking my words apart and telling me how wrong I am. Once in a while I would not mind... in fact, I would welcome it. But when it happens with almost every post, it get's old. Especially when I am actually trying to tell people, "Right! I agree!" and then that person turns around and says, "No, you don't agree."

I think I prefer Feminist Mormon Housewives to this site.

But, sorry Apple and Connie. I'm not leaving.

Janice

Hey, Janice, I agree with you, you have been trying to tone down the contention that began in these threads. You weren't the only one showing contention here....so, please don't feel like you're alone, and unsupported!

It upsets me that you were singled out as the one being "contentious," when honestly, I didn't feel that was your intent. I suppose I should go back and reread the posts that I have read. It seems that you were provoked, to me....

At any rate, perhaps I'll pm you with the thoughts I was trying to relate earlier, the ones that got erased. I think you would appreciate them, and I could share them with you with no invitation for contention from other people who disagreed reading them~

Dove

Edited February 21, 2009 by Dove
Not wanting to cause more contention while being upset!

[Guest missingsomething]

What I find extremely entertaining... no...frustrating... is that my original post... as was stated over and over..... that we should use lets see if I can QUOTE the ORIGINAL POST - since I believe you all have OVERLOOKED a few very IMPORTANT words to it.... "judgemental undertones".

You can do whatever you need to do... but "as for me and my house"... I will choose to bear my testimony and not put people down for their beliefs... of course, I will correct if need be and I will contact the proper people if its above me... (afterall, it is not my desire to drive people - whether it is "their fault" for being offended or not.... )...

I know that Christ taught by example and by love. And that is how I will strive to become.

And for the person "concerned" by my comment that we can not (in our current state) do everything that Christ did.. ... we are to strive to be like Him yes... do we have all of the authority that he does? I do not believe so. Anyone who feels they are Christ's equal, frankly concerns me. But... Im sure you will all figure out a way to tell me I'm wrong :)...But...I do not believe I am on the same level as Christ... yet... and I guess thats why I dont see it as my personal job to watch everyone around me and tell them everything they are doing wrong. [EVEN THOUGH... that was NOT the topic of my ORIG POST]....I have enough to work on in my own life and choose to do that - but for the person who will write... "well you arent keeping the commandments then..." I'd ask you... how many people have you led to the church... or reactivated? Me... I never served a mission but have had great success with my methods... Sometimes... your way... is not the only way. Because bearing my testimony and caring for people...getting to know their struggles... walking in their shoes.... seems to be working.

Even when the prophet, Thomas S. Monson guides us.. .he does so in a gentle manner and does not talk above those who listen ...but his teachings appeal even to the new member by his soft tone, his gentle manner and by using stories and words we can all understand.

So lets just say this.... Try to be more Christ-like... and for the person who can handle all criticism.. good for you, sincerely - I dont get offended often either... but not everyone can be as perfect as us

LADIES... GENTS.... THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY FIRST POST SO SUCCESSFUL.

[Connie]

Anyone who feels they are Christ's equal, frankly concerns me. But... Im sure you will all figure out a way to tell me I'm wrong :)

I'm certain i could, but will forbear for now.

[Dove]

This thread has turned sad to me...People are obviously upset and serious in their responses to what has been said, and we are choosing to joke at them?! Wow, you know, this causes my own judgmental self to rise to the fore....I'm rather hurt and incredulous at such a seemingly taunting, calling the other out for another go around, attitude.

I'm with Janice~I too will choose to sign off this thread. Missing Something, I feel you started this with good intent. That you addressed a rather serious problem amongst church members. That we, all of us, so easily fall to judgmental-ism and criticizing of others. That it does alienate other people. I, for one, have felt the brunt of this quite deeply. It does effect me, as it has friends and family members in my own life....No one is exempt from the barbs that others give, especially when not asked for, even when done so seemingly in the best of intent

All I can say, is ohh, how much I want to be found looking for the best in others, rather than those things to correct and "put down" about them. Because quite frankly, any uninvited criticism is a presumptive put down, to me. Something that is not my business to do. Unlike Christ, I do not claim a perfect knowledge of the person I can be criticizing, their emotional state, their background, their heart, prior experience, or even, what internal instruction they have been receiving to be acting as they are in any given moment.

I don't have the trust of other people enough to take negative comments towards me well, no matter how well intentioned. I, myself, remember how cruelly treated I was when growing up, just for differences in my physical appearance. Something I had absolutely no control over~and yet was made fun of for many years, just for being different.

I have watched my own sibling get excited about truths in the gospel, and saw her testimony starting to "light" once more, only to be doused by the utter lack of support of church members around her. It was felt and quite painful to her. Even though she would never admit it, this lack of love and support was the reason she herself fell back into inactivity and denying the gospel.

Unfortunately, most people I know do not thrive in an environment of criticism. It causes pain and self-doubt.

Well, I'm tired of this. I don't want to post anymore here either. One thing that does ring true in these posts, is that each of us really hasn't changed their position because of what another has said. I hesitate to share more because my comments may become the target of a rebuttal in a debate over points..

Enough

Dove

[Guest missingsomething]

This thread has turned sad to me...People are obviously upset and serious in their responses to what has been said, and we are choosing to joke at them?! Wow, you know, this causes my own judgmental self to rise to the fore....I'm rather hurt and incredulous at such a seemingly taunting, calling the other out for another go around, attitude.

I'm with Janice~I too will choose to sign off this thread. Missing Something, I feel you started this with good intent. That you addressed a rather serious problem amongst church members. That we, all of us, so easily fall to judgmental-ism and criticizing of others. That it does alienate other people. I, for one, have felt the brunt of this quite deeply. It does effect me, as it has friends and family members in my own life....No one is exempt from the barbs that others give, especially when not asked for, even when done so seemingly in the best of intent

All I can say, is ohh, how much I want to be found looking for the best in others, rather than those things to correct and "put down" about them. Because quite frankly, any uninvited criticism is a presumptive put down, to me. Something that is not my business to do. Unlike Christ, I do not claim a perfect knowledge of the person I can be criticizing, their emotional state, their background, their heart, prior experience, or even, what internal instruction they have been receiving to be acting as they are in any given moment.

I don't have the trust of other people enough to take negative comments towards me well, no matter how well intentioned. I, myself, remember how cruelly treated I was when growing up, just for differences in my physical appearance. Something I had absolutely no control over~and yet was made fun of for many years, just for being different.

I have watched my own sibling get excited about truths in the gospel, and saw her testimony starting to "light" once more, only to be doused by the utter lack of support of church members around her. It was felt and quite painful to her. Even though she would never admit it, this lack of love and support was the reason she herself fell back into inactivity and denying the gospel.

Unfortunately, most people I know do not thrive in an environment of criticism. It causes pain and self-doubt.

Well, I'm tired of this. I don't want to post anymore here either. One thing that does ring true in these posts, is that each of us really hasn't changed their position because of what another has said. I hesitate to share more because my comments may become the target of a rebuttal in a debate over points..

Enough

Dove

Thank you dove... thank you for being honest and sharing! And I have nothing to rebut!

[Connie]

I'm sorry to see that some have chosen to take offense at my words. I bear no malice toward anyone on this site. I'm sorry some have chosen to read condemnation into my words. I assure you i felt no anger or bitterness when presenting my posts. I have made no personal attacks, at least that i can tell. I have attacked ideas and opinions, even without reservation, but that is not the same thing. I have presented my opinion and given scriptural proofs to back it up. I ask the same of anyone else. Prove to me that we are not to follow the example Christ set for us in His earthly ministry. Prove to me that we should not warn our neighbor. I have already agreed that we are not to condemn anyone. I don't feel i have done that in any of my posts.

[Guest missingsomething]

Prove to me that we are not to follow the example Christ set for us in His earthly ministry. Prove to me that we should not warn our neighbor.

No one disagrees with you about the above. I personally, do not agree with everyone on the method. But thats the glorious thing about our faith... we believe in agency.

As for offense...I dont know.. it might just be the tone... "prove to me"....seems.. ah... a little sharp....but I dont know since I personally took no offense to ANYONES remarks......and its quite hard to know one's true intent in a forum style setting - there is no body language, tone, etc. I wouldnt sweat it.

I personally took no offense. Afterall, I know where my testimony is and I know what I have read and the spirit has witnessed to me is true.

Again... Thanks everyone... especially at the beginning before this all got misdirected. The article and scriptures...and Hymn were great references.

[applepansy]

I'm saddened, not angry or upset. I am also concerned. So what I'm going to do pray for guidance and bear my testimony.

I know that we are expected to be as Christ-like as possible. We have been commanded be like Christ. Can we be perfect? NO! We are human and as such we are not perfect. But that doesn't mean we aren't commanded to try.

Human-beings judge. We judge something or someone everyday. You can choose to say "I'm not judgemental" but if you really look at your life and circumstances yes you are judging. The key here is to judge righteously as the Savior taught. We can get ourselves into trouble when we proclaim "I don't judge people" because we do judge whether we say anything or not. The points made in this thread are all valid. . .ALL OF THEM!

It is so important to open our minds and soften out hearts so that we can be teachable. Now before anyone assumes I'm talking about them . . . STOP! I'm not. I'm talking about everyone in the world, ME most especially. When we harden our hearts to doctrine we may not understand we become unteachable. The Spirit moves away from us and we become stuck. Until we (all of us) humble ourself and open our hearts we cannot move forward.

I started this post with prayer and I'm going to end it with prayer. My prayer is that the assumptions and misunderstandings in this thread will be resolved. Not necessarily here but in each of our hearts. I do not believe that there was malice intended by anyone and I hope that we can move forward without making assumptions about each others intent.

Peace and love,

applepansy

P.S. I've debated whether or not to repost the link to Elder Oaks talk. I think its imporant so I'm going to include it. LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Judge Not†and Judging

Edited February 21, 2009 by applepansy

[Connie]

As for offense...I dont know.. it might just be the tone... "prove to me"....seems.. ah... a little sharp....but I dont know since I personally took no offense to ANYONES remarks......and its quite hard to know one's true intent in a forum style setting - there is no body language, tone, etc. I wouldnt sweat it.

Thank you, point taken. I know i can be abrupt, but i don't mean anything hateful by it. It's just me trying to prove my point. I rather like it when someone can prove me wrong through the scriptures. Truth is truth regardless of the source.