Signs Of Second Coming.....tsunami

[mountainrider]

Before I go any further, I have to say that I feel horrible about this politically incorrect, Jesusland interpretation of world events, but I can't help it

In April 2004 General Conference, Elder Oaks said the following:

"These signs of the Second Coming are all around us and seem to be increasing in frequency and intensity. For example, the list of major earthquakes in The World Almanac and Book of Facts, 2004 shows twice as many earthquakes in the decades of the 1980s and 1990s as in the two preceding decades (pp. 189–90). It also shows further sharp increases in the first several years of this century. The list of notable floods and tidal waves and the list of hurricanes, typhoons, and blizzards worldwide show similar increases in recent years (pp. 188–89). Increases by comparison with 50 years ago can be dismissed as changes in reporting criteria, but the accelerating pattern of natural disasters in the last few decades is ominous."

At the time, this talk struck me as terribly important but the recent world events brought it back to the front of my mind. As I have pondered what has happened, I can't help but wonder, amongst all those that died a horrible, sudden death, did any future terrorists lose their lives? Is this disaster directly related to the collective wickedness of the region? As I watch many in the United States further pervert God's will and continue to justify the breaking of the most basic commandments, I can't help but think about what will come in the future and if "I have my house in order"?

has anyone else had these thoughts or am I way outa line?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

As I have pondered what has happened, I can't help but wonder, amongst all those that died a horrible, sudden death, did any future terrorists lose their lives? Is this disaster directly related to the collective wickedness of the region?

I don't think so, based on my general belief, pace Elder Oaks, that the Lord has nothing to do with natural disasters. But I can understand why someone who took the scriptures more literally might take notice of the fact that, for two consecutive Christmases, "Acts of God" have absolutely shellacked the Islamic world. Last Christmas, tens of thousands died in the earthquake in Bam, Iran; now the Indonesian province of Aceh (home of a significant jihadist movement) got clobbered.

I suspect that the supposed increase in natural disasters Elder Oaks referred to has more to do with increased monitoring and measurement, and with greater devastation resulting from larger populations, than with anything else. See the U.S. Geological Survey's discussion of this subject at http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/general/increase...arthquakes.html

If the Lord really were in the business of annihilating "wicked" populations, why couldn't He have used a more surgical instrument than a tidal wave, washing away innocents like a lovely young Utah girl along with the jerks in Osama T-shirts. (I saw a news photo of a guy wearing one of said T-shirts carrying off the body of a relative. Karma's a real beyotch, isn't it?) It's not as if the scriptures don't indicate God is capable of a discriminating approach; witness the final plague on the Egyptians in Exodus, where the angel of death would kill an Egyptian firstborn in one house and leave a Hebrew boy in the next house alone.

[mountainrider]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 3 2005, 03:01 PM

As I have pondered what has happened, I can't help but wonder, amongst all those that died a horrible, sudden death, did any future terrorists lose their lives? Is this disaster directly related to the collective wickedness of the region?

I don't think so, based on my general belief, pace Elder Oaks, that the Lord has nothing to do with natural disasters. But I can understand why someone who took the scriptures more literally might take notice of the fact that, for two consecutive Christmases, "Acts of God" have absolutely shellacked the Islamic world. Last Christmas, tens of thousands died in the earthquake in Bam, Iran; now the Indonesian province of Aceh (home of a significant jihadist movement) got clobbered.

I suspect that the supposed increase in natural disasters Elder Oaks referred to has more to do with increased monitoring and measurement, and with greater devastation resulting from larger populations, than with anything else. See the U.S. Geological Survey's discussion of this subject at http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/general/increase...arthquakes.html

If the Lord really were in the business of annihilating "wicked" populations, why couldn't He have used a more surgical instrument than a tidal wave, washing away innocents like a lovely young Utah girl along with the jerks in Osama T-shirts. (I saw a news photo of a guy wearing one of said T-shirts carrying off the body of a relative. Karma's a real beyotch, isn't it?) It's not as if the scriptures don't indicate God is capable of a discriminating approach; witness the final plague on the Egyptians in Exodus, where the angel of death would kill an Egyptian firstborn in one house and leave a Hebrew boy in the next house alone.

I understand what you are saying, but I find it interesting that he would throw a random paragraph into his talk on the Second Coming of Christ talking about the increased measuring ability of seismic events. Couple this with the scriptures, mainly the new testament and the Book of Mormon, where it talks about signs of the second coming are, among many other things, earthquakes in diverse places, pestilences, plagues etc. I found it interesting that Elder Oaks specifically mentioned tsunamis. I don't think it was necessarily a coincidence.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Trouble is, much as I hate to contradict an apostle (much less a legally-trained one!) Elder Oaks said earthquakes are increasing, and they're just ... not. Of course more earthquakes will be measured when you've got 8,000 seismic monitoring stations around the world, than when you've only got 350. Note that the USGS statistics for the past 30 years actually show fewer major earthquakes than the 18 per year that long-term historical records indicate is the yearly average.

My thinking is that nature will try very hard to kill you, regardless of how close to the Second Coming we are. I mean, I wouldn't want to tell a man who lost his entire family to the Lisbon earthquake and tsunami in the 1700s, "Well, at least we're not in an age where natural disasters are increasing because of the approaching Second Coming!"

Every time things get nasty, people think it's a sign of the times. The Roman Christians thought Attila the Hun was the messenger of the Apocalypse. The Black Death in the 1300s got people thinking the same thing. There was a famous "year without a summer," causing widespread famines, in the early 1800s, when, possibly coincidentally, a lot of apocalyptic religions got started (ours and the Millerites, which became the JWs and 7th-Day Adventists when the Lord didn't show up as Miller predicted). I tend to hold with the view that the Lord will come like a thief in the night, and there will have to be much less ambiguous evidence of "increased earthquakes" to qualify as a sign of the times.

[Snow]

Talking about natural castastophes - @50 million died of the influenza plague of 1918. Don't see that many much any more.

[Bunker]

The weatherman said that the weather patterns were changing. I have to agree with the weatherman and Elder Oaks because where I live we used to get tons of snow and now it is like semi-winter. We get snow in the mountains but nothing or near to nothing in the valley. We used to all have to have 4-wheel drive vehicles because of how deep the snow was on the roads, now we don't.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Bunker@Jan 4 2005, 11:01 AM

The weatherman said that the weather patterns were changing. I have to agree with the weatherman and Elder Oaks because where I live we used to get tons of snow and now it is like semi-winter. We get snow in the mountains but nothing or near to nothing in the valley. We used to all have to have 4-wheel drive vehicles because of how deep the snow was on the roads, now we don't.

By that logic, we should have expected the Second Coming at both the beginning and the end of the Medieval Warm Period (about 1000-1500 AD) and of the Little Ice Age of 1600-1800.

California had a series of wet years culminating in 1998, then a drought until last year, and now we're getting snowed and rained like it's going out of style. (Great snowboarding at Summit on New Year's, though.)

Weather changes. Always has, always will.

[Bunker]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Jan 4 2005, 01:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Jan 4 2005, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Bunker@Jan 4 2005, 11:01 AM

The weatherman said that the weather patterns were changing. I have to agree with the weatherman and Elder Oaks because where I live we used to get tons of snow and now it is like semi-winter. We get snow in the mountains but nothing or near to nothing in the valley. We used to all have to have 4-wheel drive vehicles because of how deep the snow was on the roads, now we don't.

By that logic, we should have expected the Second Coming at both the beginning and the end of the Medieval Warm Period (about 1000-1500 AD) and of the Little Ice Age of 1600-1800.

California had a series of wet years culminating in 1998, then a drought until last year, and now we're getting snowed and rained like it's going out of style. (Great snowboarding at Summit on New Year's, though.)

Weather changes. Always has, always will.

All I can say is; you'd better find a good rock to hide under just in case you are wrong.

[Jenda]

Sometimes I think people mistake God saying something will happen to mean that God caused it to happen.

I think, since God is omnipresent, He knows all that has happened and all that will happen. Just because He know it will happen and gives advance warning doesn't mean He caused the disasters. So............. this could be the beginning of the end but that doen't mean that it is God's fault. It might just be the natural order of things that were going to happen before the end without interference from God.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Bunker+Jan 4 2005, 12:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bunker @ Jan 4 2005, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Jan 4 2005, 01:34 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Bunker@Jan 4 2005, 11:01 AM

The weatherman said that the weather patterns were changing. I have to agree with the weatherman and Elder Oaks because where I live we used to get tons of snow and now it is like semi-winter. We get snow in the mountains but nothing or near to nothing in the valley. We used to all have to have 4-wheel drive vehicles because of how deep the snow was on the roads, now we don't.

By that logic, we should have expected the Second Coming at both the beginning and the end of the Medieval Warm Period (about 1000-1500 AD) and of the Little Ice Age of 1600-1800.

California had a series of wet years culminating in 1998, then a drought until last year, and now we're getting snowed and rained like it's going out of style. (Great snowboarding at Summit on New Year's, though.)

Weather changes. Always has, always will.

All I can say is; you'd better find a good rock to hide under just in case you are wrong.

When the Prophet tells me to get to the temple and keep my head down, I'll perk up my ears. Until then, the only reaction the "we're in the last days" message gets from me is "well, yeah -- that's in the name of the Church. But 'last days' is a relative thing, and there's no more indication I'll see the Second Coming within my ordinary threescore and ten mortal years than there was that Joseph Smith's generation would."

For Church leaders to keep pounding the "everything's going to hell in a handbasket" theme even when trends turn positive -- as they occasionally do; there are peaks even along the course of a long-term decline -- weakens their credibility, as it does when they make factually incorrect statements like Elder Oaks' about the frequency of earthquakes.

[StrawberryFields]

Okay this is what I am gathering thus far from this discussion.

Some say these disasters are not Gods fault but because of the signs of the times nothing is done to prevent them.

Some say that we have had signs of the times for nearly 150-200 years so relax.

I hesitate to dive into a discussion like this because I am not as well versed as others but I would like to learn.

My general knowledge of the Second Coming is that there will be signs that lead up to this.

Weather

Disease

Wickedness

Wars

And I am sure I have left some out.

Maybe even Mad Cow Disease (muttering to myself) nah, that was something completely different.

Maybe it is just me and the past two years I have gone though, but I feel that many people¡Çs lives are becoming more difficult and complex. Life is nothing like it was 35 years ago and I was playing in a sand box. Life was even easier 10 years ago and then I was way into adulthood.

I feel very deeply that things are changing and it isn't just happening "in my world" either. I have talked about these things with people who are not even members of the church. If these things are not signs of the times then what is?

[speedomansam]

you can't really blame the man if his almanac was wrong.

[Bunker]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Jan 4 2005, 03:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Jan 4 2005, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Bunker@Jan 4 2005, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Jan 4 2005, 01:34 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Bunker@Jan 4 2005, 11:01 AM

The weatherman said that the weather patterns were changing. I have to agree with the weatherman and Elder Oaks because where I live we used to get tons of snow and now it is like semi-winter. We get snow in the mountains but nothing or near to nothing in the valley. We used to all have to have 4-wheel drive vehicles because of how deep the snow was on the roads, now we don't.

By that logic, we should have expected the Second Coming at both the beginning and the end of the Medieval Warm Period (about 1000-1500 AD) and of the Little Ice Age of 1600-1800.

California had a series of wet years culminating in 1998, then a drought until last year, and now we're getting snowed and rained like it's going out of style. (Great snowboarding at Summit on New Year's, though.)

Weather changes. Always has, always will.

All I can say is; you'd better find a good rock to hide under just in case you are wrong.

When the Prophet tells me to get to the temple and keep my head down, I'll perk up my ears. Until then, the only reaction the "we're in the last days" message gets from me is "well, yeah -- that's in the name of the Church. But 'last days' is a relative thing, and there's no more indication I'll see the Second Coming within my ordinary threescore and ten mortal years than there was that Joseph Smith's generation would."

For Church leaders to keep pounding the "everything's going to hell in a handbasket" theme even when trends turn positive -- as they occasionally do; there are peaks even along the course of a long-term decline -- weakens their credibility, as it does when they make factually incorrect statements like Elder Oaks' about the frequency of earthquakes.

You listen to the prophet but not to the apostles? 3 Ne. 29: 2 And ye may know that the words of the Lord, which have been spoken by the holy prophets, shall all be fulfilled; and ye need not say that the Lord delays his coming unto the children of Israel.

Who are the children of Isreal? 12 tribes? Who peoples the earth?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Bunker,

Yes, I give the prophet greater weight than apostles on a matter where canonized scripture explicitly says that no man knows the time or hour of the Second Coming. If the Prophet said major earthquakes are increasing, he'd be factually wrong, and we'd know he was speaking as a man rather than a prophet, as was Elder Oaks when he made that same mistake.

[pushka]

really, really people...I cannot believe the discussion I have just read on here...such compassion and sympathy for the people who have lost their loved ones...family, friends, homes, livelihoods!!

This whole post...the only one I have spotted on here regarding the Tsunami disaster, has been about whether or not it is a sign of the end times...2nd coming and whether or not you are all gonna be saved or damned...I am just amazed!!!

Not only have I read not 1 post sympathising with the people affected, but I was shocked to read the comments suggesting that maybe the death of so many islamic people is good, because there may have been some future terrorists amongst them!!!! Are you suggesting then that most of the members of the LDS church should suffer the same fate, lest there be any future murderers amongst you, because there have been murderers in your church in the past has there not?

Please, redeem yourselves...show some caring spirit for those poor people...otherwise I consider you already damned...

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 7 2005, 09:29 AM

really, really people...I cannot believe the discussion I have just read on here...such compassion and sympathy for the people who have lost their loved ones...family, friends, homes, livelihoods!!

This whole post...the only one I have spotted on here regarding the Tsunami disaster, has been about whether or not it is a sign of the end times...2nd coming and whether or not you are all gonna be saved or damned...I am just amazed!!!

Not only have I read not 1 post sympathising with the people affected, but I was shocked to read the comments suggesting that maybe the death of so many islamic people is good, because there may have been some future terrorists amongst them!!!! Are you suggesting then that most of the members of the LDS church should suffer the same fate, lest there be any future murderers amongst you, because there have been murderers in your church in the past has there not?

Please, redeem yourselves...show some caring spirit for those poor people...otherwise I consider you already damned...

Oh, get off your high horse, Push. No doubt everyone posting here has deep sympathy for those who have suffered in this tragedy. That, in addition to feeling compassion (and in the cases of most, doing something tangible to express it, like giving a generous fast offering last Sunday to provide relief), some of us also consider the theological implications takes nothing away from that compassion. Not every discussion of the subject has to include a recital of conspicuous compassion for the victims.

So you consider us "already damned." Duly noted. Consider whether you yourself aren't using the tsunami and people's discussion of it as an excuse to set yourself in judgment of others.

You want unseemly, take a look at all the commentators who fell all over themselves after the tsunami trying desperately to find an angle that would allow them to blame President Bush and America for the wave.

I was shocked to read the comments suggesting that maybe the death of so many islamic people is good, because there may have been some future terrorists amongst them!!!!

Point me to the specific comment so I can demolish how you've distorted it. That said, to the extent that some Laskar Jihad guys got washed out to sea, I can't really include them among those for whom I feel compassion.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 7 2005, 10:29 AM

really, really people...I cannot believe the discussion I have just read on here...such compassion and sympathy for the people who have lost their loved ones...family, friends, homes, livelihoods!!

This whole post...the only one I have spotted on here regarding the Tsunami disaster, has been about whether or not it is a sign of the end times...2nd coming and whether or not you are all gonna be saved or damned...I am just amazed!!!

Not only have I read not 1 post sympathising with the people affected, but I was shocked to read the comments suggesting that maybe the death of so many islamic people is good, because there may have been some future terrorists amongst them!!!! Are you suggesting then that most of the members of the LDS church should suffer the same fate, lest there be any future murderers amongst you, because there have been murderers in your church in the past has there not?

Please, redeem yourselves...show some caring spirit for those poor people...otherwise I consider you already damned...

Out of Catnip?

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 7 2005, 11:25 AM

Please, redeem yourselves...you already damned...

This was my favorite part of this comedy!

Such words from someone who says there is no God and compares the scriptures to a mother goose tale.

"Jesus is comming! Look busy!"

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Setheus+Jan 7 2005, 12:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Jan 7 2005, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 7 2005, 11:25 AM

Please, redeem yourselves...you already damned...

This was my favorite part of this comedy!

Such words from someone who says there is no God and compares the scriptures to a mother goose tale.

"Jesus is comming! Look busy!"

Yes I agree but those were not my words they belonged to Pushka.

Just a qoute glitch.

[Setheus]

would never mean to foul your good name.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jan 7 2005, 12:54 PM

would never mean to foul your good name.

Thanks Buddy!

[Guest curvette]

Duck getting his feather's ruffled is a sure sign of winter. Personally, I think Elder Oaks probably knew just what he was saying. He quoted the 2004 almanac. He never said it was so, just that the almanac reported it. It doesn't need to be true--it just needs to support his argument. (okay, enough lawyer bashing from me :) )

I wonder if the prophesies are vague and repetitious for a purpose. To keep mankind in a constant state of readiness for the second coming ensures that they will be prepared no matter when it happens.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 7 2005, 02:01 PM

Duck getting his feather's ruffled is a sure sign of winter. Personally, I think Elder Oaks probably knew just what he was saying. He quoted the 2004 almanac. He never said it was so, just that the almanac reported it. It doesn't need to be true--it just needs to support his argument. (okay, enough lawyer bashing from me :) )

I wonder if the prophesies are vague and repetitious for a purpose. To keep mankind in a constant state of readiness for the second coming ensures that they will be prepared no matter when it happens.

Duck getting his feather's ruffled is a sure sign of winter.

Ha. It's a sign he was in the office until 11:30 last night. But the fact that it's like ninety below and pouring rain outside (as it has for the past two weeks almost straight here in sunny SoCal) isn't helping much, either. I want to walk across the street to Lawry's Carvery in South Coast Plaza to get some of that mm-mm prime rib mushroom barley soup -- great for a cold rainy day -- but I'm afraid I'd either drown, die of hypothermia, or be blown away Mary Poppins-style by my umbrella.

There appears to be a guy loading animals into an ark over in the park. Maybe Elder Oaks had a point.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 7 2005, 03:12 PM

But the fact that it's like ninety below and pouring rain outside (as it has for the past two weeks almost straight here in sunny SoCal) isn't helping much, either.

Yeah, I was a weather-wuss too when I lived in California. I don't think I owned a pair of gloves when I went to BYU--it took me awhile to realize why I was so cold all the time. I'm less blonde, further north, and a lot warmer now!

[Snow]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 7 2005, 08:29 AM

really, really people...I cannot believe the discussion I have just read on here...such compassion and sympathy for the people who have lost their loved ones...family, friends, homes, livelihoods!! 

This whole post...the only one I have spotted on here regarding the Tsunami disaster, has been about whether or not it is a sign of the end times...2nd coming and whether or not you are all gonna be saved or damned...I am just amazed!!!

Not only have I read not 1 post sympathising with the people affected, but I was shocked to read the comments suggesting that maybe the death of so many islamic people is good, because there may have been some future terrorists amongst them!!!!  Are you suggesting then that most of the members of the LDS church should suffer the same fate, lest there be any future murderers amongst you, because there have been murderers in your church in the past has there not?

Please, redeem yourselves...show some caring spirit for those poor people...otherwise I consider you already damned...

When pushka comes to shoveska we find out who's holier-than-thoushka. And the winner is?

Pushka, my sweet Babushka!

I'd be surprized if the whole dammed lot of us, with the exception of the Divine Miss M-shka, don't burn in Helsinki this very night.