Cows And Illegal Aliens

[Amillia]

COWS

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amazing that our government

can track a cow born in Canada almost three years ago, right to the stall

where she sleeps in the state of Washington. And they tracked her calves

to their stalls. But they are unable to locate 11 million illegal aliens

wandering around our country. Maybe we should give them all a cow.

[Setheus]

Well, the cows play by the rules and are law abiding...unlike the other cows

[john doe]

Yes, it is just you. See, the cows were trafficked legally, whereas the illegal aliens have no papers proving where they originated. (thus the term illegal in their description)

There would be many less illegals in this country if only the government arrested everybody who they found at any time without the proper papers showing they have a right to be where they are found by the authorities. And if the agents were to randomly shoot those who were uncooperative with them, then the undocumented would behave better, too. I mean, how much trouble did Nazi Germany have with illegals coming IN to their country? Or the Soviets, for that matter?

[DisRuptive1]

The government looks the other way, at least here, because even teenagers aren't willing to take the jobs that illegal immigrants take. They are just trying to work hard and make a living. If it means that I have [get] to eat delicious strawberries because of their hard menial labor, then so be it. Let 'em stay!

[Winnie G]

I agree let them stay, heaven forbid we ask hard working members of our community to leave.

Just a note if you had your ear tagged at birth you would be easy to track as well.

Another BSE case was reported this last month witch proves Canadian screening of all cattle that is bound for market works. So why has it taken the governments well over a year to reopen the border to triad?

[Amillia]

I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.

What a country.

[Guest curvette]

You talk about illegal aliens as if they were animals and not human beings. These are mostly people who are simply trying to keep their families from starving to death. Historically, it wasn't very long ago that WE took California away from Mexico. It's a very complex problem.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jan 11 2005, 02:03 AM

The government looks the other way, at least here, because even teenagers aren't willing to take the jobs that illegal immigrants take. They are just trying to work hard and make a living. If it means that I have [get] to eat delicious strawberries because of their hard menial labor, then so be it. Let 'em stay!

Hogwash.

American civilization existed just fine before the age of mass illegal immigration. It operates just fine in those backwater regions that aren't overrun with illegal immigrants.

The problem is not that Americans are unwilling to do certain jobs -- it's that they're unwilling to do those jobs, at a particular pay rate. Raise the pay of a burger flipper or a strawberry picker enough, and you'll see the teenagers line up to work there.

[Cal]

Originally posted by john doe@Jan 10 2005, 11:13 PM

Yes, it is just you. See, the cows were trafficked legally, whereas the illegal aliens have no papers proving where they originated. (thus the term illegal in their description)

There would be many less illegals in this country if only the government arrested everybody who they found at any time without the proper papers showing they have a right to be where they are found by the authorities. And if the agents were to randomly shoot those who were uncooperative with them, then the undocumented would behave better, too. I mean, how much trouble did Nazi Germany have with illegals coming IN to their country? Or the Soviets, for that matter?

Yes, after all, this is the land of the free and the home of the KKK.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM

I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.

What a country.

Bigot.

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Jan 11 2005, 01:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Jan 11 2005, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--DisRuptive1@Jan 11 2005, 02:03 AM

The government looks the other way, at least here, because even teenagers aren't willing to take the jobs that illegal immigrants take.  They are just trying to work hard and make a living.  If it means that I have [get]  to eat delicious strawberries because of their hard menial labor, then so be it.  Let 'em stay!

Hogwash.

American civilization existed just fine before the age of mass illegal immigration. It operates just fine in those backwater regions that aren't overrun with illegal immigrants.

The problem is not that Americans are unwilling to do certain jobs -- it's that they're unwilling to do those jobs, at a particular pay rate. Raise the pay of a burger flipper or a strawberry picker enough, and you'll see the teenagers line up to work there.

You'll also see what happens to the cost of a big mack.

I side with curvette. If any of you had actually known some of the families that come here looking for work, you might be much less harsh. There are a lot of myths surrounding the issue of undocumented mexican people in this country. The biggest one is that they come here to live off our social welfare. Not ONE illegal alien I have known came here for that reason, and not one person in Mexico that ever told me he wanted to come the US, said it was to get ANYTHING free. Overwhelmingly, they want to work, contribute, get educated and live the same american dream that everyone of OUR immigrant ancesters wanted. I say, measure their right to be here witht he same stick you use to measure the rights YOUR ancesters had to come here. Yes, secure the boarders against terrorists, but after screening for this purpose, open it up to the rest. ( We'll give the bigots a free ticket to Canada)

Second myth, that illegal workers are somehow ruining our economy. The opposite is true. Their labor lowers cost of production, and actually increases productivity.

[john doe]

I know, work with, and live around many Mexican immigrants, both legal and illegal. The problem I see is that many of the illegals don't attempt to integrate themselves into being Americans, they seem to want the benefits of living here without paying for it. They seem to be the ones who refuse to learn the language unless they have to, drive without auto insurance, etc. Even the legal immigrants look upon the illegals with disdain and treat them like dirt, moreso than the gringos do.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM

I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.

What a country.

Bigot.

Are you implying there is something wrong with the government telling its people how to SAFELY cross the border and how to deal with the border police. Do you have a problem with safety? And what does it tell them to do with the police that you find so objectionable?

It sounds like to me you just don't like a whole group of people called Mexicans. And that, my friend, makes you a bigot.

[Cal]

Originally posted by john doe@Jan 11 2005, 11:03 PM

I know, work with, and live around many Mexican immigrants, both legal and illegal. The problem I see is that many of the illegals don't attempt to integrate themselves into being Americans, they seem to want the benefits of living here without paying for it. They seem to be the ones who refuse to learn the language unless they have to, drive without auto insurance, etc. Even the legal immigrants look upon the illegals with disdain and treat them like dirt, moreso than the gringos do.

My answer: So what? What is your point? What benefits are you talking about? What are they not paying for THAT THEY CAN AFFORD? And SO WHAT that the legals treatt the illegals badly--is that some sort of justification for YOUR doing so?

Maybe if they got paid a decent wage they could afford our auto insurance. Remember that the status of being illegal carries a connotation of some sort of moral failing on their part. In reality, it is simply the ethnocentrism of americans that wants to look down on others, especially if they are less fortunate than oneself.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM

I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.

What a country.

Bigot.

Are you implying there is something wrong with the government telling its people how to SAFELY cross the border and how to deal with the border police. Do you have a problem with safety? And what does it tell them to do with the police that you find so objectionable?

It sounds like to me you just don't like a whole group of people called Mexicans. And that, my friend, makes you a bigot.

I resent your ignorance on this matter. You would have us be over run, giving up our own land to aliens without a word or be called a bigot. I guess it is a good thing you are a pion and not someone with real power.

We are as good as slaves now for them because we are paying for all of their education and other benefits.

We are also losing our children's futures to them. Just move over kids. Forget getting anything we had, it is already taken by the aliens. Now don't cry or moan or that will make you a bigot.

Yeah right!

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Cal,

My wife grew up in Santa Ana (now 90% Mexican, largely monoglot and with a large "undocumented" population). My mother in law still works in the schools there. I'll just say that your picture of illegal immigrants coming here for work only, with no thought whatsoever for public benefits, is not universally correct. Even for those who come here to work, they come here for the whole package -- which, in California, includes generous public assistance, whose providers are prohibited from inquiring into the legal-residence status of its recipients.

Mass immigration, legal and illegal, depresses labor costs, and allows American businesses to run a Third World economy in parallel with the mainstream one. If you aren't happy with the increasing gap in this country between the rich and poor, you must at least consider the influence on this divide of importing what is essentially a servile helot class.

You could probably double the labor costs to McDonald's without having any really painful effect on the price of a Big Mac. Labor costs are a surprisingly small proportion of production costs in those sectors where immigrant labor predominates. Labor costs make up the costs of about 10% of the cost of produce, for example. I'd frankly prefer to pay an extra dime for a head of lettuce than deal with the other consequences of mass illegal immigration, including population pressure (with concomitant housing shortages causing runaway home prices), traffic, strains on the education and healthcare systems, crime, etc.

You prefer not to address these realities and sum everything up with a simplistic "You just don't like Mexicans." I'm not going to fall back on the old "I have Mexican friends" defense, because frankly that's none of your business. I only say it would be better for the United States if Mexican society weren't such a dysfunctional shambles that it impels millions of people to come here.

I say, measure their right to be here witht he same stick you use to measure the rights YOUR ancesters had to come here.

I say, measure their right to be here with a more generous measure. After all, the native inhabitants fought my ancestors tooth and nail to deny them the right to live here.

In reality, it is simply the ethnocentrism of americans that wants to look down on others, especially if they are less fortunate than oneself.

Try immigrating illegally to Mexico, or applying for public assistance there, and see if Mexico's lack of "American ethnocentrism" makes any difference. We are far more generous to Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise, than Mexico itself is to people wanting to live there.

The ultimate fact is that Americans have decided that they don't want unlimited immigration, and have enacted laws setting limits (at fantastically high levels, incidentally.) If you think those limits ought not to exist, you ought to advocate that those laws be changed -- not just lambaste as "bigots" anyone who actually wants to enforce them.

[Traveler]

1.I am concerned that foreign governments publish and distribute anything that encourages their citizens to come to our country and deliberately break our laws.

2.I am bewildered when someone calls someone else a bigot for expecting foreigners to have respect our laws.

3.I am aghast when someone suggests illegal aliens are good for us because we can and do exploit them illegally.

4.I think children are being taught poor values when they are given the impression that they do not have to compete in the market place value for value for what they do and what they are paid. I do not care if they are getting paid 10 cents an hour they are still better off working for almost nothing than they are watching 90% of what our broadcasters deliberately put on TV directly targeting our youth.

5.I do not think illegal aliens are the real problem or a good solution to be considered a major or first concern. I believe illegal aliens to be a trickle down problem of problems in our society that for the purpose of appearing “politically correct” we will not consider.

6.Finely I think that someone is a trader and does not deserve to be a citizen if they openly advocate or assist in the breaking or disrespect for the law.

The Traveler

[john doe]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 12 2005, 07:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 12 2005, 07:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--john doe@Jan 11 2005, 11:03 PM

I know, work with, and live around many Mexican immigrants, both legal and illegal. The problem I see is that many of the illegals don't attempt to integrate themselves into being Americans, they seem to want the benefits of living here without paying for it. They seem to be the ones who refuse to learn the language unless they have to, drive without auto insurance, etc. Even the legal immigrants look upon the illegals with disdain and treat them like dirt, moreso than the gringos do.

My answer: So what? What is your point? What benefits are you talking about? What are they not paying for THAT THEY CAN AFFORD? And SO WHAT that the legals treatt the illegals badly--is that some sort of justification for YOUR doing so?

Maybe if they got paid a decent wage they could afford our auto insurance. Remember that the status of being illegal carries a connotation of some sort of moral failing on their part. In reality, it is simply the ethnocentrism of americans that wants to look down on others, especially if they are less fortunate than oneself.

Where do you get off claiming that I am treating the illegals badly? Get off your high horse, bucko. You have no idea how I treat them.

As for your other complaint, the fact is, that it is a law to have a minimum insurance on any vehicle driven in my state on public roads. Period. If the illegals want to be a viable part of America, they need to start by not breaking the laws here. If they cannot afford to drive legally on our roads, then they need to find another mode of transportation that they can use legally. The moral failing they show is that they refuse to obey the laws of the land they chose to come to. Besides that, by and large, they don't pay income taxes since they are undocumented workers. That leaves the legal residents with the burden of paying for the illegal ones. They place a burden on our public services without making any meaningful contribution to the funding of those services. That is a problem.

[Guest curvette]

I also do agree that some of these people come over here with no respect for our laws. One of my good friends and his little baby daughter were killed by an illegal Mexican man who was drunk and driving on the wrong side of the freeway. It was tragic. I still mourn them. Still, most of the illegals I've met are good, decent, family oriented people just looking for work.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 12 2005, 06:59 PM

I also do agree that some of these people come over here with no respect for our laws. One of my good friends and his little baby daughter were killed by an illegal Mexican man who was drunk and driving on the wrong side of the freeway. It was tragic. I still mourn them. Still, most of the illegals I've met are good, decent, family oriented people just looking for work.

I think you can say this about anyone breaking the law - except for the laws they break they are good decent people just trying to get by. Personally I do not think good decent people deliberately plan in advance to break the law. It is part of what I understand as good and decent.

The Traveler

[john doe]

think you can say this about anyone breaking the law - except for the laws they break they are good decent people just trying to get by.

Nice generalizations, guys. I will also agree that most people who break the law are otherwise good, decent people. Why, look at Mark Hacking, if he hadn't killed his wife, he would just be another good guy trying to get by in the world- albeit without working too hard at it, but hey, those are just details, right? Right? I mean, as long as no one noticed that he didn't really have the credentials or required degrees to work where he did, and as long as he kept his nose clean, it was okay, right? It was all good, right? Just a guy trying to get by without working too hard or going about it the right way. Then his wife found out, and all hell broke loose, but hey, those are just minor details, right? Am I right? Are we all agreed on this?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 12 2005, 08:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 12 2005, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM

I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.

What a country.

Bigot.

Are you implying there is something wrong with the government telling its people how to SAFELY cross the border and how to deal with the border police. Do you have a problem with safety? And what does it tell them to do with the police that you find so objectionable?

It sounds like to me you just don't like a whole group of people called Mexicans. And that, my friend, makes you a bigot.

I resent your ignorance on this matter. You would have us be over run, giving up our own land to aliens without a word or be called a bigot. I guess it is a good thing you are a pion and not someone with real power.

We are as good as slaves now for them because we are paying for all of their education and other benefits.

We are also losing our children's futures to them. Just move over kids. Forget getting anything we had, it is already taken by the aliens. Now don't cry or moan or that will make you a bigot.

Yeah right!

Lack of facts, lack of knowledge of history. You don't seem to mind that your food is cheap and you don't seem to bother acknowledging that, while you think we are being "overun", our ancesters didn't seem to mind "overunning" the mexicans who are already here in California, and claiming California for its own.

By the way, do you know the definition of bigot? It is the resentment of a whole class of people simply on the basis that they belong to a culture different than yours. Sound familiar.

I don't hear you complaining about illegal Canadian immigration--it's not as evident, I wonder why?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 12 2005, 08:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 12 2005, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 12 2005, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 11 2005, 08:52 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:46 AM

I just heard on the news last night that the Mexican governement is sending out a pamphlet to all their people giving them instructions as to how to safely cross over the borders and what to do if they encounter the border police.

What a country.

Bigot.

Are you implying there is something wrong with the government telling its people how to SAFELY cross the border and how to deal with the border police. Do you have a problem with safety? And what does it tell them to do with the police that you find so objectionable?

It sounds like to me you just don't like a whole group of people called Mexicans. And that, my friend, makes you a bigot.

I resent your ignorance on this matter. You would have us be over run, giving up our own land to aliens without a word or be called a bigot. I guess it is a good thing you are a pion and not someone with real power.

We are as good as slaves now for them because we are paying for all of their education and other benefits.

We are also losing our children's futures to them. Just move over kids. Forget getting anything we had, it is already taken by the aliens. Now don't cry or moan or that will make you a bigot.

Yeah right!

Also, can you be more specific about why your future is being LOST? As I see it, if your children's future is being lost, it is your fault, not mexican. You sound like Hitler, blaming the problems of Germany on the Jews.

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 12 2005, 11:58 AM

Cal,

My wife grew up in Santa Ana (now 90% Mexican, largely monoglot and with a large "undocumented" population).  My mother in law still works in the schools there.  I'll just say that your picture of illegal immigrants coming here for work only, with no thought whatsoever for public benefits, is not universally correct.  Even for those who come here to work, they come here for the whole package -- which, in California, includes generous public assistance, whose providers are prohibited from inquiring into the legal-residence status of its recipients.

Mass immigration, legal and illegal, depresses labor costs, and allows American businesses to run a Third World economy in parallel with the mainstream one.  If you aren't happy with the increasing gap in this country between the rich and poor, you must at least consider the influence on this divide of importing what is essentially a servile helot class.

You could probably double the labor costs to McDonald's without having any really painful effect on the price of a Big Mac.  Labor costs are a surprisingly small proportion of production costs in those sectors where immigrant labor predominates.  Labor costs make up the costs of about 10% of the cost of produce, for example.  I'd frankly prefer to pay an extra dime for a head of lettuce than deal with the other consequences of mass illegal immigration, including population pressure (with concomitant housing shortages causing runaway home prices), traffic, strains on the education and healthcare systems, crime, etc.

You prefer not to address these realities and sum everything up with a simplistic "You just don't like Mexicans."  I'm not going to fall back on the old "I have Mexican friends" defense, because frankly that's none of your business.  I only say it would be better for the United States if Mexican society weren't such a dysfunctional shambles that it impels millions of people to come here.

I say, measure their right to be here witht he same stick you use to measure the rights YOUR ancesters had to come here.

I say, measure their right to be here with a more generous measure. After all, the native inhabitants fought my ancestors tooth and nail to deny them the right to live here.

In reality, it is simply the ethnocentrism of americans that wants to look down on others, especially if they are less fortunate than oneself.

Try immigrating illegally to Mexico, or applying for public assistance there, and see if Mexico's lack of "American ethnocentrism" makes any difference. We are far more generous to Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise, than Mexico itself is to people wanting to live there.

The ultimate fact is that Americans have decided that they don't want unlimited immigration, and have enacted laws setting limits (at fantastically high levels, incidentally.) If you think those limits ought not to exist, you ought to advocate that those laws be changed -- not just lambaste as "bigots" anyone who actually wants to enforce them.

Did I say I was "universally" correct. I was making a generalization which obviously has its exceptions. I don't really care about the exceptions. There are those on this thread that would paint the mexican immigrants with a broad brush of indolence. That is what I object to.

Importing? They are mostly here voluntarily. I they can find a better life here, why not? Our ancesters did.

Labor costs are a surprisingly small proportion of production costs in those sectors where immigrant labor predominates. 

Of course it is, NOW. Try tripling or quadurpling that cost to get other americans to do it and see how cheap a head of lettuce would be. And lettuce is only one product. Also, when you chose the harvesting end of the spectrum, you limit yourself to the end where the labor is arguably the lesser cost. As you go from there to transportation, processing, distribution and delivery the labor costs spiral upward.

I say, measure their right to be here with a more generous measure.  After all, the native inhabitants fought my ancestors tooth and nail to deny them the right to live here.

First, that is a mixed bag at best. Many of the natives americans were happy to coexist until our ancesters broke treaties left and right. Our attitude of treating native americans like savages with disrespect and contempt lead to the problems. Had we acted like the Christians we were supposed to be, the outcome may have been drastically different for the native americans.Second, does one wrong justify a second?

We are far more generous to Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise, than Mexico itself is to people wanting to live there.

If we are, why shouldn't we be? Beside, the point isn't which country is the most humanitarian, it is that we should decide for ourselves what kind of country WE are. One thing for sure, we ARE a country of immigrants. Why should we stop acting like it.

In closing ,, I find it interestingly coincidental that those that MOST want immigration laws enforced also express, whether obviously or between the lines, a prejudice and fear of other cultures, reflected in an almost preoccupation with mexican immigration.

I WOULD like to see the immigration laws with regard to mexican immigration changed to reflect REALITY. Mexican immigration has several characteristic not shared by other groups. First, this is and was for a long time, THEIR country. We kicked them out. Second, many mexicans have relatives in this country since the mexican-american war or earlier. They have a deep connection to the american southwest. Third, as I said before, and you didn't disagree, most mexican immigrants come here to be with family and to work. Yes, the US is a better place to live. And it becomes even BETTER with mexicans here. If you disagree that mexicans are not a nice people to be around, then you had better examin your sense of humanity.

Remember this, most immigrant groups coming to this country struggle to become successful. Immigrant Italians struggled, immigrant Pols struggled. But, thanks to the generosity of the american system, they EVENTUALLY became a productive part of society. Mexicans are doing the same thing. I get a lot of children of mexican immigrants who now graduate from high school, where their parents didn't, but just worked hard, and these kids are going to college, getting good jobs and paying the taxes you so mournfully wish they would. It is a process, one that has gone on in America from the beginning. If it were so damaging to the economy, then, by now, we should hardly have one. History speaks for itself.

[Winnie G]

illegal Canadian immigration

Are they called Snow Backs?