Would you sell alcohol or tobacco?

[Lost_one]

I live in the UK and there are people of a certain religion that seem to run alot of stores. There religion teaches them that drinking alcohol is really bad and they are forbidden from drinking it. Yet, ive never been in a single store that members of this religion own, not selling alcohol.

What im asking is: If you owned a store. As an LDS member. Would you or could you sell alcohol or tobacco?

Personally, i couldnt. I would feel like i was a hipocrite.

Who is worse, the junkie or the drug dealer? I would say the dealer is.

Thanks.

[Maxel]

Good question. I would say 'no', I would not. As for your junkie vs. drug dealer question, it reminds me of the sage question of Obi-wan Kenobi: Who is more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him? It's a difficult question, though, and I think faithful Mormons could, in some good conscience, sell some alcohol or tobacco if they were running a generalized restaurant or store. However, a Mormon owning an establishment selling exclusively or primarily one of the aforementioned products is, frankly, a hypocrite- they are profiting off of the destruction of the bodies of their fellow man. There's little wiggle-room in this question, but the wiggle-room exists.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Maxel
Clarification

[blessedinarizonia]

Boy, this is a toughie. Before I was converted I entered into a occupation most lds would not. I was a union bartender. I was a single mom of four and i made good money being union. I also had health and retirment benies. When I converted I consulted with my Bishop. We talked very long time. He finally said since I didn't own the place I worked at , that would make a difference he said, then he felt that I was making a living for my family. Thats the wiggle room Maxel was talking about. So if you own a store and sell, amoung other things, alcohol or tobacco then you personally or making a profit from that sell. Your clerk on the otherhand is just making a living. I know that the clerk can make the decision not to work there. As for my family my kids grew up with things I could not have given them on a lesser salary. I am retired now and have a nice pension. A side note. When my co-workers found out that I was LDS they would take turns coming to ask me questions. They would find me at lunch and sit there and ask many questions. They would find me in the parking lot on the way to my car and stop me and ask questions. If you stand firm in what you believe they notice. One young man came across the room straight to me. I keept expection him to turn the cornor, he did not. After getting to my place of work he said ":I didn't know you were from Utah". I said that i was not. I worked at the Mirage in Las Vegas and I was born there and told him so. It's funny that people think all lds people come from Utah.

[blessedinarizonia]

Please excuse the spelling. I have lost a great deal of my eyesight and my fingers don't work well. LOL

[hordak]

I would. But then again I used to fix planes that helped drop bombs on people.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins

It isn't a sin to allow others to use agency in my book

[a-train]

Joseph Smith owned a bar in Nauvoo (after the Word of Wisdom was received).

Jesus turned water to wine at the celebration of a wedding. The guests found his wine to be the best.

I would definitely sell liquor and tobacco.

If we strictly abstained from the activity, Mormons would not work in grocery stores, stores like Wal-Mart, convenience stores, hotels, most restaurants, a whole assortment of jobs. The fireman cannot look down on those who work in such jobs or own such businesses. Just as others cannot look down on the fireman who has duties on the Sabbath.

Further, if we believe it a sin to sell liquor or tobacco, then it would not hold to believe that it is not a sin to sell coffee and tea. An even stricter interpretation would disallow us to sell soda drinks with stimulants in them. Our youth would not work at a local fast food joint.

Perhaps we would even say that selling rich cakes and sweets which can lead to weight gain or foods high in cholesterol should be avoided.

I have heard members demonize Marriot for selling alcohol, tobacco, and worse: pornographic movies, in his hotels.

To them, I would uphold again the original Mormon Creed, Joseph Smith Sr.'s 11th Commandment:

MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

(The above plaque hung in the Logan temple for many years. The creed was also on the front of Mormon newspapers during the late 19th Century amid Washington's persecution of the Saints.)

-a-train

Edited March 2, 2009 by a-train

[Guest missingsomething]

If I owned the store, I would probably not sell it/serve it. But I have been a waitress and have "served" alcohol. Afterall, I can not make that choice for an individual but I dont need to put it in their hands either....

[prisonchaplain]

Let me add a crinckle to this discussion. Even if you personally might be okay with selling booze and cigarettes, how would you feel seeing your bishop doing so? In my own faith tradition, I've found myself not doing certain activities that I personally don't believe are wrong, but which would cause confusion within the congregation.

[Guest Alana]

I've worked at a restaurant before and sometimes people would order beer or wine with their lunch. I didn't feel sinful for serving it to them. If I were to own a restaurant, I want to say on the top of my head I would also have alcohol for sale ... but I think I would need to pray about it first. It's a toughie. For instance, some gas stations don't sell beer. The ones that do get a lot more business. It is a question of lively hood coming before morals? I suppose the question is 'is selling alcohol when you have a choice not to, a sin?' I'm not sure. I want to say that if I'm doing a grocery run for a friend and they ask me to buy a bottle of wine, that's not sinful. I would consider being a cashier at a grocery store an honorable employment. You're not breaking any laws and you're not drinking the alcohol yourself or enticing others to... so my immediate, open for change, answer is go for, sell away.

[Guest Alana]

Let me add a crinckle to this discussion. Even if you personally might be okay with selling booze and cigarettes, how would you feel seeing your bishop doing so? In my own faith tradition, I've found myself not doing certain activities that I personally don't believe are wrong, but which would cause confusion within the congregation.

If my bishop was a cashier at a grocery store or had a restaurant, I wouldn't think twice about it. If he owned a liquor store, I would be surprised.

[Elgama]

I wouldn't if I owned the business - cigarettes hurt other people. and alcohol destroys lives.

However have worked as a barmaid and considered a job in a distillery although when I posted the latter its amazing how many people last year jumped on me and said to do so was awful.... now wish i had taken the job

-Charley

[RainofGold]

my husband has been wanting to open a restaurant for the longest time. He is not a member, he would want to sell alcohol. He doesn't see anything bad with having a beer once in a while. I have never supported the idea even though I know that we would probably make tons of money since he has the skills, knowledge, and connections to do so. I just think that being part of a business that sells alcohol it's a personal choice.

Knowing what I know about the consequences of having too many drinks and driving, I would hate to be the person selling it. I would somehow feel a little

responsible, even though they could probably go anywhere else and buy it. I just wouldn't want the person to be me.

Rain

[Janice]

If you owned a store. As an LDS member. Would you or could you sell alcohol or tobacco?

We have a good friends, very active LDS couple, he owns a chain of grocery stores. His stores sell "soft" alcohol" such as sell beer and wine coolers. And, his stores are open on Sundays.

Our bishop owns a business with several thousand employees. When some of them travel, they buy alcohol and get reimbursed from company funds. When he throws Christmas parties he fund an open bar.

When living over seas we were friends with an LDS Air Force Colonel who had a closet full of booze. The hard stuff. He never drank it, but he served it at parties when he entertained. He was our Branch President.

I have an uncle, active LDS, who lives in Vegas and sells for a company that supplies casino's with food, drink and alcohol. He makes a commission on all of it, a large portion of his income comes from alcohol sales.

There is a chain of gas stations in our area owned by a large holding company who's CEO is LDS, used to be in the Stake Presidency. All of the gas stations sell beer, cigarettes, and porn magazines. They are also open on Sundays.

The Marriott chain of hotels are owned my Brother Marriott, an active member. Wine is on all the menus and porn can be rented on all of the TV's.

Notice, I am not offering my opinion on any of these. I'm just sharing facts.

Janice

Edited March 2, 2009 by Janice

[Janice]

... considered a job in a distillery although when I posted the latter its amazing how many people last year jumped on me and said to do so was awful...

That's too bad, and is (in my opinion) an example of the judgmental attitude that was discussed in another thread recently.

[Maxel]

You make some good points, a-train.

Joseph Smith owned a bar in Nauvoo (after the Word of Wisdom was received).

He would also occasionally ride through Nauvoo smoking a cigar to 'test the Saints'. I don't claim to know all of the reasoning that went into Joseph Smith's actions- I can safely say that he was inspired of God in what he did right, and justified by God in what he did wrong. However, I do know that the Word of Wisdom is nowadays upheld as a strict commandment of God- it is no longer required that a prophet test the saints in such a matter. I think a more concise restatement of the OP's question would be:

Would you own, operate, and be responsible for a company that distributes and sells liquor and/or tobacco, when there was no other option for making a viable living?

(My apologies to you, Lost_Sheep, if I've misunderstood your original question)

The basic question becomes, would you allow and work for the distribution of chemicals to be used in ways prohibited by God to support your own family? Depending on the type and quantity of faith of the specific Saint, I can see the answer being 'yes' or 'no' without violating the most fundamental laws of the Gospel- no matter how close said Saint may or may not be to crossing the line of righteousness.

Furthermore, the question could be changed and nuanced differently. For example, if there was an alternate solution to selling tobacco/liquor for making a decent living, the question changes. The principles at hand become 'distributing substances forbidden by God, when other options are available VS. supporting one's family'- or, if the question was merely 'would you work at an establishment (as waiter, clerk, etc.) that sold liquor/tobacco?' the relevant principles again change ('working for another who distributes substances forbidden by God VS. supporting one's family). Even a person's personal situation changes the question- what if the person in question is single and only needs to take care of him/herself? What if the person in question is a single parent and only has training to be a bartender, and has no other viable options to make a living? What is the person's familiarity with Church doctrine and the Gospel, and how long has said person been a member of the Church? Which principles of the Gospel has the person in question internalized vs. which principles is the person struggling to understand and learn?

In my opinion, this is a question faaar from black and white- and again, an answer of 'yes' or 'no' is no accurate reflection on a person's righteousness. (I make this disclaimer because I fear I'm losing my powers of tact and charity in these forums... I don't want to seem to be calling anyone unrighteous or a hypocrite.)

I have heard members demonize Marriot for selling alcohol, tobacco, and worse: pornographic movies, in his hotels.

Side note- I've heard that when the decision was passed to make pornographic movies accessible to the public, President Marriot no longer was on the Board of Directors (or whoever made the final decision) and therefore had no real say in the matter. I don't know if that's true or not (and have no idea where to verify the information), and I don't know about the sale of alcohol and tobacco- but this is an interesting case point.

To them, I would uphold again the original Mormon Creed, Joseph Smith Sr.'s 11th Commandment:

MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

(The above plaque hung in the Logan temple for many years. The creed was also on the front of Mormon newspapers during the late 19th Century amid Washington's persecution of the Saints.)

-a-train

I agree with the idea presented, but I disagree with the underlying sentiment of the idea as applied to this situation. The question is not 'should others do so?' but 'should I do so?'- we are not minding others' business, we are minding our own. We can no longer afford others benefits of the doubt, nor can we assume there are situations we are not aware of. We become the judges of our own souls, and are knowledgeable of all vital information pertaining to the matter. If the question shifts and becomes 'should others do so?' then we run into the idea of minding our own business- but not until then.

Furthermore, there must be deeper spiritual meanings behind the 'MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS' policy of the 1900's- if not, then the practice has changed, as the LDS Church is beginning to mind the business of the non-LDS public with its public support of Proposition 8 (please, please, let this thread not devolve into a discussion about that...). The 11th article of Faith specifically talks about religious freedom, not any other type of freedom or practice. (I think you're talking about the 11th AoF when you reference 'Joseph's Smith Sr.'s 11th commandment'... I have no idea though. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Janice]

The basic question becomes, would you allow and work for the distribution of chemicals to be used in ways prohibited by God to support your own family?

I hope you don't mind, Maxel, if I play School Teacher with your English here. This could be read a couple different ways:

Would you support your own family by distributing chemicals which are prohibited by God?

OR

Would you support your own family in ways prohibited by God by distributing chemicals?

Maybe some would say it's half a dozen of one, six of the other? But either way, I think we aught to mention that God has not necessarily given a blanket "I FORBID" on these chemicals to all of humanity. He HAS asked Latter-day Saints (in OUR dispensation) to refrain from these chemicals, and so we rightly do. But those not of our religion are under no such commandment to abstain.

Drinking and smoking is not on the same plain as murder and adultery, both of which all humanity has been given a blanket "THOU SHALT NOT". (Exceptions to every rule, of course, as in Nephi and Labon, but I think we can stick with the non-exceptions for the point of this discussion.)

It most certainly is, as you say, a very non black and white issue. Would I own a bar? No. Would I own a grocery store that sold beer? Probably. In all honestly, I would feel more guilty about making my employees working on Sunday then I would about selling beer.

Janice

[Elgama]

That's too bad, and is (in my opinion) an example of the judgmental attitude that was discussed in another thread recently.

thing is in that judgement I think there is something to listen too, and I must have been uncomfortable myself to have posted it, I did ask for honest opinions lol which is what I got.

I have turned down jobs with Sunday working but have since changed my mind about what an essential Sunday service, we all change as we progress.

-Charley

[Janice]

thing is in that judgement I think there is something to listen too, and I must have been uncomfortable myself to have posted it, I did ask for honest opinions lol which is what I got.

Fair enough :)

[Islander]

The argument above is a bit blurred by the diversity of points you raise. There is a significant distinction between a privately own business (say a store), a public company (corporation with 1000's of shareholders) and the Church itself. There is also a significant difference between Church doctrine that applies ONLY to the Saints, and social issues that affect the Church, the Saints and the society of which we are integral part.

It may serve a better purpose if the issues are discussed separately and exclusively of the segments mentioned above.

Case in point, I have a friend whom converted 3 years ago in Mexico. He is a chemical engineer for a liqueur company but his job relates to water treatment. By the way, the same company also produces a number of other non-alcoholic beverages. It is not his business, he does not personally manufactures or sells it.

liqueur

[Maxel]

The argument above is a bit blurred by the diversity of points you raise.

Good, my point was made . This isn't a black-and-white issue, and the question 'would you sell liquor or tobacco?' opens the door for a lot of misinformed miscommunication...

There is a significant distinction between a privately own business (say a store), a public company (corporation with 1000's of shareholders) and the Church itself. There is also a significant difference between Church doctrine that applies ONLY to the Saints, and social issues that affect the Church, the Saints and the society of which we are integral part.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Agreed.

It may serve a better purpose if the issues are discussed separately and exclusively of the segments mentioned above.

Sure, why not? Lead the charge. My only hope was conveying the multi layered nature of this question and discussion so feelings wouldn't get hurt, I probably could have worded it a lot better. I have a major headache right now... Edited March 2, 2009 by Maxel

[Janice]

The argument above is a bit blurred by the diversity of points you raise.

Islander, if you are referring the examples I gave, making the issue a bit blurry was exactly my desire :). I wanted to show how non-black and white this issue is. Even if you were referring to another post (Maxel's?), I agree with you all the same :-)

This is another good example of why personal revelation is so important. I hold firm to the idea that it's impossible to look to scripture, conference talks, and the Church Handbook for the answers to every puzzle that comes up in life. Eventually we will all run into choices that require us to think for ourselves, make our own choices, and then get on our knees and ask God if we have chosen correctly.

Neither my husband or I have ever been confronted with the prospect of providing for our family with proceeds from non-Word-of-Wisdom approved products, so this particular issue has never been an issue.... for us. But we know people for whom it has been an issue. Some have decided that a change in career was required. Others have decided that a change in career was not required.

Both are correct.

Janice

Edited March 2, 2009 by Janice

[lilered]

I know of a Stake President that owned real estate that would not rent or lease any of his commericial real estate for the purposes of selling either tobacco or alcohol. He felt that he should set an example for rightousness rather than be a lightning rod for criticism if he had.

[Janice]

I know of a Stake President that owned real estate that would not rent or lease any of his commericial real estate for the purposes of selling either tobacco or alcohol. He felt that he should set an example for rightousness rather than be a lightning rod for criticism if he had.

This was a wise choice on his part, and he was right to do so. I'd be willing to bet he never said anything like, "... and anyone who would do differently is wrong." but, that's just a guess.

Janice

[lilered]

This was a wise choice on his part, and he was right to do so. I'd be willing to bet he never said anything like, "... and anyone who would do differently is wrong." but, that's just a guess.

Janice

Your absolutely correct. He would never condemn someone else for making a different decision.

The only way I found out he felt this way was that I asked him if he had any bites on leasing a particuliar building I knew he owned and had been sitting vacant for a bit. By the way, he still is my home teacher and we have been friends for years. I admire him a lot.

[Islander]

Islander, if you are referring the examples I gave, making the issue a bit blurry was exactly my desire :). I wanted to show how non-black and white this issue is. Even if you were referring to another post (Maxel's?), I agree with you all the same :-)

This is another good example of why personal revelation is so important. I hold firm to the idea that it's impossible to look to scripture, conference talks, and the Church Handbook for the answers to every puzzle that comes up in life. Eventually we will all run into choices that require us to think for ourselves, make our own choices, and then get on our knees and ask God if we have chosen correctly.

Neither my husband or I have ever been confronted with the prospect of providing for our family with proceeds from non-Word-of-Wisdom approved products, so this particular issue has never been an issue.... for us. But we know people for whom it has been an issue. Some have decided that a change in career was required. Others have decided that a change in career was not required.

Both are correct.

Janice

I agree. I know with certainty what I would do. I cannot, however, impose my choice onto others as a blank recipe.