Boy Scouts Of America And The Church

[TannersDad]

The Boy Scout program has always bothered ever since I was a young man and had it forced upon me. I am just not someone that likes camping, hiking, or most scouting activities. There are people that do and I say more power to them, I however will never be a scout. Let me express my concerns and see what you guys think.

First, not everyone will enjoy scouting so why force it on all young men? The church, rightfully so, holds young men in high regard that achive the rank of eagle. While this is nice it is not as if being an eagle scout makes you a better person than someone else. When I was a young man we had 11 priest in my quorom and only two of us achieved our eagles. As the president of the quorom I was hounded about doing scouting activities so others would get their eagle. I was more concerned with having the other guys show up on Wednesday nights and feeling friendship and welcome than I was with them getting their eagle. In the long run no one else got their eagle but 10 of the 11 priests served full time missions and we are all still good friends after 15 years. My quorom seemed to have great success without using the scouting program as a tool. By the way I don't take any credit for the above mentioned, the guys that were in my quorom were and are excellent men. Further, there is no correlation between being a good missionary and being an eagle scout. There are many good missionaries that never got their eagle and many eagle scouts that were poor missionaries or didn't even serve missions.

Second, why doesn't the church use the girl scouts program? I guess the major issues I have here is that everyone always wants to compare the young womans award with that of an eagle scout award. I know that the young woman award is hard work but it just does not compare to an eagle scout award.

Third, why does the church use an inspired program for the young women while using scouting for the young men? I have a hard time with this because as I see it the most important part of young men and women is to ensure that the kids have testimonies and will ultimately serve missions and get married in the temple. Young woman, who in my opinion are naturally more spiritual than young men, have a gospel centered program. The young men, who I think more often need spiritual influences have the main program focus away from the church and spirituality. I understand that there is the Duty to God award but that program seems to take a back seat to the scouting program. Boy scouts is only a national program for young men in the states. Shouldn't the church be able to come up with a program that would focus on spirituality and fun activities that could be used around the world? I served my mission among latinos in this country and they didn't even incorporate the scouting program in their wards and branches. They lost many young men because they simply had no program. Again, why can't the church come up with a church wide program for the young men? that leads to the last issue:

Has the church out grown the scouting program? Now that we have more members outside of the United States then we do in it, is it time the church moves to a program where all young men can participate? The church has been able to do this with young women and with sunday school lessons. I believe it is time for a uniform system for the young men.

Finally, let me say that even though I have issues with the scouting program that I do think it is a good program. It teaches many good things but so does singing in a choir or playing on a sports team but we don't require our young men to do that. I believe that the scouting program is better than nothing and even a lot better than a lot of programs. Scouting is a very good tool for those that enjoy it and take advantage of it but it simply is not for everyone and should not be forced upon all young men.

Okay I know that was long but any thoughts? I was trying not to offend anyone so please don't take offense.

[Amillia]

I totally agree with everything you have said. I don't think the scouting program fits the needs of the people ingeneral either.

My husband was the scout master and came to hate it also.

[Guest curvette]

Ditto to all the above.

[Guest GOD'S ARMY]

I personally think the scouting program is a great idea, but I did not participate all that much myself. I think the Church likes being affiliated with a program with similar values that was not a program started by the Church. It's not all campouts. There are a lot of skills learned that are good for the development of young men. What would you rather that they did? Give an example of what would be better for a person like you.

[TannersDad]

As I said above I do think that BSA is a good program but it is not one that works for everyone.

I think that Duty to God is a great program. They could flush out that program and make it more detailed requiring the boys to do more things, like a service project similar to what eagle scouts do. The key, in my opinion, would be to have the program like Duty to God focus on the spirituality of the boys. Gaining a testimony is the most important thing for the boys to learn while they are still in their youth. Much like the young women the young men could focus on things that they like to do while gaining a testimony.

Maybe the issue I have is not the BSA program but the fact that it seems to be emphasized more than the spirituality of the young men in the church.

[speedomansam]

i just got my eagle, but i've always hated scouting, too. the only things i've liked are the campouts and doing an eagle project. the merit badges are full of bologne, as is all the documentation required for the eagle project itself.

Tanner, have you actually sat down and looked at the new Duty to God? there's a million things to do in there and now it's actually harder to achieve than the young woman's award is. Among the 49 things a deacon must do, 49 things a teacher must do, and 49 things a priest must do, there's also a 10, 20, and 30 hour service project each must do. This duty to God program definitely does focus on gaining a testimony. If anything, this program needs to be less intensive, rather than more, because a lot of the requirements are incredibly nit picky and too specific (example: one of them is to speak in sacrament meeting about a righteous father and the effect he's had. another is to help an old person vote. another is to organize a crime prevention program in your neighborhood. aren't these just a tad ridiculous?)

But i do agree, Duty to God should receive more emphasis than the eagle award.

[Cal]

Originally posted by TannersDad@Jan 13 2005, 01:34 PM

As I said above I do think that BSA is a good program but it is not one that works for everyone.

I think that Duty to God is a great program. They could flush out that program and make it more detailed requiring the boys to do more things, like a service project similar to what eagle scouts do. The key, in my opinion, would be to have the program like Duty to God focus on the spirituality of the boys. Gaining a testimony is the most important thing for the boys to learn while they are still in their youth. Much like the young women the young men could focus on things that they like to do while gaining a testimony.

Maybe the issue I have is not the BSA program but the fact that it seems to be emphasized more than the spirituality of the young men in the church.

Sorry to disillusion you, but NOTHING works for everyone, not even the Church itself.

However, the BSA has a lot to offer kids that would otherwise just be kicking around. I learned a lot about being a team member and overcoming adversity. We did a lot of hiking, camping. Most likely I would never had done those things otherwise. Kids need role models, especially young boys. Not all Scout masters are good role models, but many are, and a lot of good is done.

Having said that, I know that kids can suffer a lot of abuse at the hands of other kids and even clueless scout masters. As a parent, I would make sure the scout master is the kind of person I would want my son to look up to.

[StrawberryFields]

The scouting program has worked great in our family but my boys like that kind of stuff. I think a lot depends of the scoutmaster and how much he gets into scouting. We had a terrific Scoutmaster and both of my boys achieved their Eagles with Nick just getting his since his accident. My older sons job application was pulled and placed at the top of 500 other applications because of his Eagle ranking and he was hired for a great job. I have also heard that if you go into the military with and Eagle award that you automatically get to start at a higher class.

FYI: In addition to the girls of the church having the Personal Progress Program the also have Girls Camp. Just an observation about boys in the scouting program in church... I have to really wonder how many boys would stick with a program that worked at developing their spiritual qualities. There is a family in our ward where they struggled with the "fun activities" that the church offered for their children. The mother of this family is a friend of mine and she would be frustrated when the young women would go swimming explaining that her daughter just wasn't interested in that. Other times when the girls would do a service project some of the girls who would go swimming wouldn't come to the service project. As a young women presidency we tried to keep the activities varied enough to allow all of the girls to feel comfortable. Half of the battle was getting them to show up, if they are not there they lose touch and then it is really difficult to get them to come. It¡Çs has been a delicate balance to keep most of them happy but one that finds great rewards.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by GOD'S ARMY@Jan 13 2005, 02:17 PM

I personally think the scouting program is a great idea, but I did not participate all that much myself. I think the Church likes being affiliated with a program with similar values that was not a program started by the Church. It's not all campouts. There are a lot of skills learned that are good for the development of young men. What would you rather that they did? Give an example of what would be better for a person like you.

I would have a young men's program like the young women's program. I would try and train future father's and husband's instead of future campers (who learn to shoot rifles, bows and arrows, start fires, do arts and crafts, play).

They should be getting lessons on how to treat women, parenting skills, finances, home repair and worth while things like that.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 13 2005, 06:24 PM

The scouting program has worked great in our family but my boys like that kind of stuff. I think a lot depends of the scoutmaster and how much he gets into scouting. We had a terrific Scoutmaster and both of my boys achieved their Eagles with Nick just getting his since his accident. My older sons job application was pulled and placed at the top of 500 other applications because of his Eagle ranking and he was hired for a great job. I have also heard that if you go into the military with and Eagle award that you automatically get to start at a higher class.

FYI: In addition to the girls of the church having the Personal Progress Program the also have Girls Camp. Just an observation about boys in the scouting program in church... I have to really wonder how many boys would stick with a program that worked at developing their spiritual qualities. There is a family in our ward where they struggled with the "fun activities" that the church offered for their children. The mother of this family is a friend of mine and she would be frustrated when the young women would go swimming explaining that her daughter just wasn't interested in that. Other times when the girls would do a service project some of the girls who would go swimming wouldn't come to the service project. As a young women presidency we tried to keep the activities varied enough to allow all of the girls to feel comfortable. Half of the battle was getting them to show up, if they are not there they lose touch and then it is really difficult to get them to come. It¡Çs has been a delicate balance to keep most of them happy but one that finds great rewards.

Is it about keeping them happy? Do we spoil them or do we try and teach them that they will have responsiblities in the future and one of those responsibilities is to support their leaders even when they don't want to?

They should all be taught to do swimming and service projects and not just show up when they want. Otherwise you haven't really taught them the valuable things.

Christ once said that the Pharasee's do the showy things which gave them attention, but didn't learn the more weightier matters. Where would these girls fall in such an evaluation? Are they just learning to pick and choose what they will do because it is all about them and all about making them happy, or are they learning to look outside of themselves?by supporting and fellowshipping with the girls no matter what the activity.

This is my complaint about the Boy Scouts program. It is always centered upon the individual boy and what he can do to get a lot of badges on his chest so he can pound his chest and say, looky what I dun. It is all about getting credit, rewards and attention just like the pharasee.

They should all be taught to look beyond their own noses.

[Traveler]

I have been a scout and a scoutmaster. Most LDS members do not understand the patrol method for teaching leadership because most ward young men programs are two small and only the 12 and 13 year olds are active scouts. Part of the scouting program is geared to rewarding boys for achievement – many think LDS boys should not need reorganization and rewards – they should be good for nothing. Scouting is not just about awards (advancement) and camping it is about teaching leaders that are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, alert, mentally awake, morally straight, clean and reverent.

It is too bad that most wards do not have a real scouting program. I remember going to winter campout competitions and telling my scouts that these things are a lot more fun if you blow away all the competition. We spent a month just getting ready. For starting a fire without matches we built a bow over 6 feet long to be operated by 2 scouts. We built a brace with a small log about 8 inches in diameter that took 4 scouts to hold. Once the bow and drill were started we could have a fire 2 feet high in 15 seconds. We did not even care if our wood was a little wet we could still start a fire faster than anyone else. The boys were all sharp and when we showed up everyone noticed. Everything was by the handbook. The tents were set in perfect rows, the boys would scream as we brought in our equipment and set up. The goal was to have camp up in 5 minutes. Of course we always won first place amid the claims that we cheated. I would respond by saying if being prepared to compete is cheating then we were diffidently guilty. The boys would tell me this is the most fun they had ever had in their life. It has been more that 15 years for some but still many of my boys come back yearly with their wives and children for a week of camping and white water rafting. Often it would be the first camp their wives had been on that they would admit they loved. Last year one of my boys showed up with his wife and kids – their youngest kid was 2 months old (of course the little kids are not allowed on the river).

I can’t imagine someone not liking camping or scouts. I would tell my scouts there is no such thing as bad weather – just bad equipment, bad preparation and bad attitudes. You don’t dream in scouts – you live your dreams. The sad thing to me is that some of the fathers of my boys never came on any campouts, never really got involved and complained about having to buy uniforms or other equipment that the boys would soon grow out of.

It is too bad that most LDS boys do not really get to enjoy the scouting program. Today we are seeing this great institution under attack from greedy men that desire to bend boys to more modern morals. I am concerned that in our society there are more men of twisted morals interested in our boys than men of character that love the adventure of teaching boys the rigors and adventure of growing up with honor as a boy scout.

The Traveler

[srm]

As the president of the quorom I was hounded about doing scouting activities so others would get their eagle. 

You were the Bishop...and they still hounded you? Who did the hounding?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jan 14 2005, 05:35 PM

I have been a scout and a scoutmaster. Most LDS members do not understand the patrol method for teaching leadership because most ward young men programs are two small and only the 12 and 13 year olds are active scouts. Part of the scouting program is geared to rewarding boys for achievement – many think LDS boys should not need reorganization and rewards – they should be good for nothing. Scouting is not just about awards (advancement) and camping it is about teaching leaders that are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, alert, mentally awake, morally straight, clean and reverent.

It is too bad that most wards do not have a real scouting program. I remember going to winter campout competitions and telling my scouts that these things are a lot more fun if you blow away all the competition. We spent a month just getting ready. For starting a fire without matches we built a bow over 6 feet long to be operated by 2 scouts. We built a brace with a small log about 8 inches in diameter that took 4 scouts to hold. Once the bow and drill were started we could have a fire 2 feet high in 15 seconds. We did not even care if our wood was a little wet we could still start a fire faster than anyone else. The boys were all sharp and when we showed up everyone noticed. Everything was by the handbook. The tents were set in perfect rows, the boys would scream as we brought in our equipment and set up. The goal was to have camp up in 5 minutes. Of course we always won first place amid the claims that we cheated. I would respond by saying if being prepared to compete is cheating then we were diffidently guilty. The boys would tell me this is the most fun they had ever had in their life. It has been more that 15 years for some but still many of my boys come back yearly with their wives and children for a week of camping and white water rafting. Often it would be the first camp their wives had been on that they would admit they loved. Last year one of my boys showed up with his wife and kids – their youngest kid was 2 months old (of course the little kids are not allowed on the river).

I can’t imagine someone not liking camping or scouts. I would tell my scouts there is no such thing as bad weather – just bad equipment, bad preparation and bad attitudes. You don’t dream in scouts – you live your dreams. The sad thing to me is that some of the fathers of my boys never came on any campouts, never really got involved and complained about having to buy uniforms or other equipment that the boys would soon grow out of.

It is too bad that most LDS boys do not really get to enjoy the scouting program. Today we are seeing this great institution under attack from greedy men that desire to bend boys to more modern morals. I am concerned that in our society there are more men of twisted morals interested in our boys than men of character that love the adventure of teaching boys the rigors and adventure of growing up with honor as a boy scout.

The Traveler

Too bad there aren't a billion like you Traveler.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 14 2005, 01:53 PM

Is it about keeping them happy? Do we spoil them or do we try and teach them that they will have responsiblities in the future and one of those responsibilities is to support their leaders even when they don't want to?

This is my complaint about the Boy Scouts program. It is always centered upon the individual boy and what he can do to get a lot of badges on his chest so he can pound his chest and say, looky what I dun. It is all about getting credit, rewards and attention just like the pharasee.

From what I have seen my answers would be yes, much of the time it is all about keeping them happy. The problem is that because not everyone like one thing you need to have a variety of things for them to do.

In today¡Çs world I believe that there are enough negative things happening to our children. If a boy earns a merit badge then I feel that it is a very good thing for him to be rewarded for. What¡Çs wrong with a little positive attention?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 17 2005, 10:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 17 2005, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 14 2005, 01:53 PM

Is it about keeping them happy? Do we spoil them or do we try and teach them that they will have responsiblities in the future and one of those responsibilities is to support their leaders even when they don't want to?

This is my complaint about the Boy Scouts program. It is always centered upon the individual boy and what he can do to get a lot of badges on his chest so he can pound his chest and say, looky what I dun. It is all about getting credit, rewards and attention just like the pharasee.

From what I have seen my answers would be yes, much of the time it is all about keeping them happy. The problem is that because not everyone like one thing you need to have a variety of things for them to do.

In today¡Çs world I believe that there are enough negative things happening to our children. If a boy earns a merit badge then I feel that it is a very good thing for him to be rewarded for. What¡Çs wrong with a little positive attention?

What negative things? Better schools, more activities than when I went to school. The girls even get to wear slacks instead of having to wear a skirt or dress where the guys could use mirrors on their shoes to look up your legs!

They have better health and dental care, better equipment like computers, better everything. What is so negative about todays world that wasn't there even 100 years ago? What?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 17 2005, 10:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 17 2005, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 14 2005, 01:53 PM

Is it about keeping them happy? Do we spoil them or do we try and teach them that they will have responsiblities in the future and one of those responsibilities is to support their leaders even when they don't want to?

This is my complaint about the Boy Scouts program. It is always centered upon the individual boy and what he can do to get a lot of badges on his chest so he can pound his chest and say, looky what I dun. It is all about getting credit, rewards and attention just like the pharasee.

From what I have seen my answers would be yes, much of the time it is all about keeping them happy. The problem is that because not everyone like one thing you need to have a variety of things for them to do.

In today¡Çs world I believe that there are enough negative things happening to our children. If a boy earns a merit badge then I feel that it is a very good thing for him to be rewarded for. What¡Çs wrong with a little positive attention?

Also~ my nephew was talking about the kids of today. He owns his own business and says he can't get a kid that will be willing to put in the work effort. He says they are spoiled and lazy. This isn't the first time I have heard this complaint. Kids are taught these days that it is all about them. It has to please them, take care of them. The don't have a really sense of community.

It takes a disaster like what happened down in St. George Utah for these kids to get a picture of reality. I believe it is programs like th scouting program which is to fault. They are made to think it is all about them getting positive attention.

I think they would learn much better if they were given tasks which were not rewarded, except in the heart.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 18 2005, 12:35 PM

What negative things? Better schools, more activities than when I went to school. The girls even get to wear slacks instead of having to wear a skirt or dress where the guys could use mirrors on their shoes to look up your legs!

They have better health and dental care, better equipment like computers, better everything. What is so negative about todays world that wasn't there even 100 years ago? What?

Are you kidding?

Yes I would agree that technology has improved some things but has this made our children smarter and added to their creativity? I would have to say no and that our children sufferd a great deal within the school system of over crowded classrooms. They do not get as many hands on experiences as they did and computers have lead many people to become more sendentary. Drugs are more prevenant in school then before and so is sex. The mirrors on shoes??? In those days IF they got away with that all they would possiably see is a hole lot of panties. Panties are not even worn by many girls anymore...it's the thong.

I believe that our children have it much harder today. Today many children with all of the new technology don't even know how to play and they are not allowed to be children. I remember when I would ride a bike all the time and it was because it was fun.

Negitivity comes in the way kids are treated especially from their piers. It comes from the pressure that kids have to fit in. It comes on the acidemic achievement that is required and being placed upon them and teachers who have too many students.

Am I to understand that you believe that school is a better place today then it was in our time? I don't ever remeber having the threat of kids shooting kids at school. Or being distracted by someoine using a cell phone during class. It has become such a place for anything but learning that some parents have resulted to home school their children.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 18 2005, 12:40 PM

Also~ my nephew was talking about the kids of today. He owns his own business and says he can't get a kid that will be willing to put in the work effort. He says they are spoiled and lazy. This isn't the first time I have heard this complaint. Kids are taught these days that it is all about them. It has to please them, take care of them. The don't have a really sense of community.

This I will agree with but it isn't the scouting program that is at fault. It is society and as soon as parents lost their rights to discipline a child the children have had control. If you take away a privilege you are being abusive and they let you know it too. Kids today have a spirit of entitlement and it is really hurting them. The schools are pushing them through the system just as fast as they can and that is hurting them as well.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 18 2005, 12:40 PM

It takes a disaster like what happened down in St. George Utah for these kids to get a picture of reality.

We were there over this past weekend and it is a very haunting image when you see homes where half of the home is gone. We saw a street that lead to a cul-de-sac and then everything was gone including the land. They can't even rebuild because the land is gone down stream into Lake Mead. I can tell you there was a very somber feeling there this weekend.

[pushka]

I think the decision whether or not to join any Boy Scouting or Girl Guiding (as we have here in the UK) programmes should be made by the child/teenager. Of course programmes should be available for them to learn life skills, skills the same as those being taught by the Scouts and Guides too, but they should want to attend these courses, they should not be forced to do so...encouragement should be the real force here. Schools and community groups should work together more to inform children of these schemes and help them to attend safely.

There will always be an element of selfish children in any organisation, that is the way it is...Maybe schools and community groups should be looking at ways of providing rehabilitation to these children, and counselling to see what has led them to act in an anti social, selfish manner.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 18 2005, 02:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 18 2005, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 18 2005, 12:35 PM

What negative things? Better schools, more activities than when I went to school. The girls even get to wear slacks instead of having to wear a skirt or dress where the guys could use mirrors on their shoes to look up your legs!

They have better health and dental care, better equipment like computers, better everything. What is so negative about todays world that wasn't there even 100 years ago? What?

Are you kidding?

Yes I would agree that technology has improved some things but has this made our children smarter and added to their creativity? I would have to say no and that our children sufferd a great deal within the school system of over crowded classrooms. They do not get as many hands on experiences as they did and computers have lead many people to become more sendentary. Drugs are more prevenant in school then before and so is sex. The mirrors on shoes??? In those days IF they got away with that all they would possiably see is a hole lot of panties. Panties are not even worn by many girls anymore...it's the thong.

I believe that our children have it much harder today. Today many children with all of the new technology don't even know how to play and they are not allowed to be children. I remember when I would ride a bike all the time and it was because it was fun.

Negitivity comes in the way kids are treated especially from their piers. It comes from the pressure that kids have to fit in. It comes on the acidemic achievement that is required and being placed upon them and teachers who have too many students.

Am I to understand that you believe that school is a better place today then it was in our time? I don't ever remeber having the threat of kids shooting kids at school. Or being distracted by someoine using a cell phone during class. It has become such a place for anything but learning that some parents have resulted to home school their children.

Our classrooms in Utah are far from being over crowded. There is seldom more than 20 kids per class. And computers are like a in-house library. Don't the kids sit down to do homework? That is what a computer is about, a major resource. My kids are skinny as rails and they use the computer lots, but it isn't all they do.

My older kids went through the public school programs and they didn't get the sex or drugs because they chose not to. That wasn't because of the scout program because my boys hated the program and didn't participate. They just were good kids who found their fun in school dances and fun movies.

The boys in my schools got away with using mirrors pleanty, and we had stupid staircases which had open steps which made it really easy for the boys to get their jollies. And believe it or not, there were girls back in my school days that didn't even where panties at all. Of course we called them the S word.

I don't know any kids in my area who don't know how to play. They have skating parks, water parks, bike trails, and they like to get together to play games. You live in Utah don't you? The kids around here have band practice, soccer, football, track, school clubs like debate, skiing, and dozens of other things like that. And this is just what is offered in the schools. My sons have drum lessons, guitar lessons, karate lessons, and they love to ride their bikes when the weather is fair like it has been lately.

Kids in every decade have had bullies. I was once beat up by a couple of black girls in high school. And when I was a kid I was chased home on occassion and my brother was pants and chased up our oak tree in front of our house. That isn't new these days.

Acidemic achievement is sometimes harder on some. But that has always been so. I never had a problem with school, but my younger brother and older sister constantly struggled.

Well I don't know where you grew up, but when I was in high school we had the blacks and the hispanic kids having turf wars in SLC. They had knives we called switch blades. They used chains, and anything they could drag to school and guess what? they didn't have metal detectors back then or zero tolerance rules. I had to walk out of school one day between two guys who were holding these knives out to slash whomever they chose.

I have done both public and home schooling with my kids. The choices were based upon what my kids needed at the time. I don't see it is any worse today than ever before.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 19 2005, 12:24 AM

Our classrooms in Utah are far from being over crowded. There is seldom more than 20 kids per class. And computers are like a in-house library. Don't the kids sit down to do homework? That is what a computer is about, a major resource. My kids are skinny as rails and they use the computer lots, but it isn't all they do.

My older kids went through the public school programs and they didn't get the sex or drugs because they chose not to. That wasn't because of the scout program because my boys hated the program and didn't participate. They just were good kids who found their fun in school dances and fun movies.

The boys in my schools got away with using mirrors pleanty, and we had stupid staircases which had open steps which made it really easy for the boys to get their jollies. And believe it or not, there were girls back in my school days that didn't even where panties at all. Of course we called them the S word.

I don't know any kids in my area who don't know how to play. They have skating parks, water parks, bike trails, and they like to get together to play games. You live in Utah don't you? The kids around here have band practice, soccer, football, track, school clubs like debate, skiing, and dozens of other things like that. And this is just what is offered in the schools. My sons have drum lessons, guitar lessons, karate lessons, and they love to ride their bikes when the weather is fair like it has been lately.

Kids in every decade have had bullies. I was once beat up by a couple of black girls in high school. And when I was a kid I was chased home on occassion and my brother was pants and chased up our oak tree in front of our house. That isn't new these days.

Acidemic achievement is sometimes harder on some. But that has always been so. I never had a problem with school, but my younger brother and older sister constantly struggled.

Well I don't know where you grew up, but when I was in high school we had the blacks and the hispanic kids having turf wars in SLC. They had knives we called switch blades. They used chains, and anything they could drag to school and guess what? they didn't have metal detectors back then or zero tolerance rules. I had to walk out of school one day between two guys who were holding these knives out to slash whomever they chose.

I have done both public and home schooling with my kids. The choices were based upon what my kids needed at the time. I don't see it is any worse today than ever before.

Gee, talk about the other end of the pendulum. Yes we might live fairly close, but our experiences are so different.

I live in an area with many children who are in school and so we are averaging about 30 children per class room and that is too many.

Where I grew up in Utah there were no tuff wars at all. The biggest trouble kids got into was sneaking into the teachers lounge and buying pop. We were not allowed to drink pop at school.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 19 2005, 09:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 19 2005, 09:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 19 2005, 12:24 AM

Our classrooms in Utah are far from being over crowded. There is seldom more than 20 kids per class. And computers are like a in-house library. Don't the kids sit down to do homework? That is what a computer is about, a major resource. My kids are skinny as rails and they use the computer lots, but it isn't all they do.

My older kids went through the public school programs and they didn't get the sex or drugs because they chose not to. That wasn't because of the scout program because my boys hated the program and didn't participate. They just were good kids who found their fun in school dances and fun movies.

The boys in my schools got away with using mirrors pleanty, and we had stupid staircases which had open steps which made it really easy for the boys to get their jollies. And believe it or not, there were girls back in my school days that didn't even where panties at all. Of course we called them the S word.

I don't know any kids in my area who don't know how to play. They have skating parks, water parks, bike trails, and they like to get together to play games. You live in Utah don't you? The kids around here have band practice, soccer, football, track, school clubs like debate, skiing, and dozens of other things like that. And this is just what is offered in the schools. My sons have drum lessons, guitar lessons, karate lessons, and they love to ride their bikes when the weather is fair like it has been lately.

Kids in every decade have had bullies. I was once beat up by a couple of black girls in high school. And when I was a kid I was chased home on occassion and my brother was pants and chased up our oak tree in front of our house. That isn't new these days.

Acidemic achievement is sometimes harder on some. But that has always been so. I never had a problem with school, but my younger brother and older sister constantly struggled. 

Well I don't know where you grew up, but when I was in high school we had the blacks and the hispanic kids having turf wars in SLC. They had knives we called switch blades. They used chains, and anything they could drag to school and guess what? they didn't have metal detectors back then or zero tolerance rules. I had to walk out of school one day between two guys who were holding these knives out to slash whomever they chose.

I have done both public and home schooling with my kids. The choices were based upon what my kids needed at the time. I don't see it is any worse today than ever before.

Gee, talk about the other end of the pendulum. Yes we might live fairly close, but our experiences are so different.

I live in an area with many children who are in school and so we are averaging about 30 children per class room and that is too many.

Where I grew up in Utah there were no tuff wars at all. The biggest trouble kids got into was sneaking into the teachers lounge and buying pop. We were not allowed to drink pop at school.

I lived in 4 different school districts growing up. Hiland High, South High, East High and West High. West High was the worst for violence, but South was where I had to walk through switch blades and the wild girls wore no panties. East High was okay, but it had problems as well. Hiland had drug problems and the guys were all peeking toms. There was a lot of fornification going on there as well.

So where did you go? Back then there was Skyline and Granite.

[StrawberryFields]

I went to school on "The East Side".

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Amillia,

I'm not making fun of your spelling, but I can't resist: What is this "fornification"? Fortified fornication? Like some kind of party where you all build forts out of cushions or something, and then try to storm each others' breastworks (sorry -- "ramparts") to commit various acts of debauchery therein?

Sounds like your schools were much more creative than Harbor High, where it was pretty much just plain unfortified fornication. Now that marriage has rendered everything legal, I might have to give this "fortified" thing a try.