"How do you KNOW?"

[sefton]

i would like an answer, once and for all, to the "how do you know" question. i can understand that it may be hard for you to explain, but please do your best. please also consider everything i say in this post and think deeply before answering.

so anyway, many mormons will say they know with 100% certainty that the mormon church is true because they prayed about it and received feelings from god testifying that the church is true. but how do you know with 100% certainty that those feelings come from God?

(P.S. i am not asking you what the feeling feels like, im asking how you can be certain whether or not a feeling comes from God, so please dont use the 'taste of salt' analogy. please also do not give circular reasoning, like saying that you know the book of mormon is true because youve had those feelings and then say that you know those feelings are true because the book of mormon says they are.)

i asked this question on another website recently and half of the people who answered were saying that they know it because they just know it (which just means they really have no basis at all for knowing it). and the other half were giving reasons that have strengthened their faith, but not a single reason that could make them KNOW. knowing does not mean abandoning all your doubts. just because you accept something as true and are convinced it's true and it makes sense to you and you get reassuring feelings from it, does not mean you KNOW. clearly, none of the people who answered really know and it is only by admitting you do not know, that you will be able to pursue the unknown and find out what is in fact true.

I'm really trying to understand your point of view because the way i see it, there is no possible way for me to literally KNOW any religion is true...Even if God himself came before me and told me a particular religion is true and even if i was overcome with amazing feelings and understanding that testified to me that the religions was true, there is really know way to know 100% that it's true...How do i know it's really God and not an evil force? or if it was God, how could i even know that i can trust God 100% in the first place? how do i know im even sane in the first place? how do i know im not in some dream world or matrix or something? i may be 99.9999% sure that the religion/church was true and have a strong faith that it is true, but there is no way i can envision under any extreme circumstances that i could know 100%

[Maxel]

i would like an answer, once and for all, to the "how do you know" question. i can understand that it may be hard for you to explain, but please do your best. please also consider everything i say in this post and think deeply before answering.

so anyway, many mormons will say they know with 100% certainty that the mormon church is true because they prayed about it and received feelings from god testifying that the church is true. but how do you know with 100% certainty that those feelings come from God?

(P.S. i am not asking you what the feeling feels like, im asking how you can be certain whether or not a feeling comes from God, so please dont use the 'taste of salt' analogy. please also do not give circular reasoning, like saying that you know the book of mormon is true because youve had those feelings and then say that you know those feelings are true because the book of mormon says they are.)

Do you believe the scientific method works and is a viable means of ascertaining what is true or not?

I'm really trying to understand your point of view because the way i see it, there is no possible way for me to literally KNOW any religion is true...Even if God himself came before me and told me a particular religion is true and even if i was overcome with amazing feelings and understanding that testified to me that the religions was true, there is really know way to know 100% that it's true...How do i know it's really God and not an evil force? or if it was God, how could i even know that i can trust God 100% in the first place? how do i know im even sane in the first place? how do i know im not in some dream world or matrix or something? i may be 99.9999% sure that the religion/church was true and have a strong faith that it is true, but there is no way i can envision under any extreme circumstances that i could know 100%

How do you, personally, ascertain what is true or not? It seems that you have set yourself up for failure in regard to religion: even if an all-powerful being (e.g., God) came to you and shared the great secrets of the universe with you, it seems you would not wholly believe Him.

[Elgama]

For me God has been a huge part of my life I have always prayed and He has always guided me, I know He is not evil, because the fruits of His guidance have always been good, I see the growth in myself and the wisdom in the way my life has gone. He has earned my trust

I would never describe the direction in my life as a feeling, beyond its my instinct and its more of the still small voice

-Charley

[sefton]

there is a difference between believing something is true and knowing something is true.

if there is no way for me to know something, why should i convince myself i know it when i dont?

[Maxel]

You haven't answered my question, sefton:

Do you believe the scientific method is a competent enough process to ascertain truth? Also, what is the difference between 'believing' and 'knowing', as you use the phrases?

[Elgama]

I think only way you know is test it like you would anything scientifically. The results then tell you yes or no. Folow the voice/feeling/emotion and see what happens

[lestertheemt]

I am not a 100% certain that I can answer your question exactly how you want it to be answered. However, I will give it the best that I can.

When I was 10 an extremely traumatic event took place in my life. My father was severely burned he had to be life flighted and because of the severity my mother was flown with him. We later found out that it was believed that he would die in flight. First you need to understand that we were not a very active church going family. I remember running into my bedroom and yelling and screaming at God...."You can't have him! You can't take him! I still need him!" After the yelling and crying I cannot deny the peace that embraced me. At the time I had no idea what that was chalk it up to pure emotion and pure exhaustion. But I cannot and will not deny that I was warmly embraced.

Fast forward 15 or so years...........I stood alone in a grove outside of Palmyra New York. Yes the same grove as Joseph Smith Jr. went in and rec'd his revelation. No personages appeared, no piller of light. But that very same warm embrace that I felt at age 10 returned...I left that grove knowing that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he had seen God the Father and His son Jesus Christ.

President Gordon B. Hinckley stated something like this.........one of 2 things happened in the grove that day............either it happened or it didn't. He then goes on to testify that it did indeed happen.

One of two things did happen that day......................it is between you and God to find out for yourself.

[pam]

If you are asking if we have seen or have tangible proof that what we believe to be true..no we don't. When asking your questions with the limitations you have placed on them..you won't get much of an answer.

Faith is believing in something not seen. You yourself said..if God came to me himself and told me a religion was true...you would still have some doubts.

The way I see it...anything anyone would say here you would still question...so my personal thoughts...why ask? I'm not saying this to be rude. Just experience.

[Maxel]

I think part of the answer can be given, sefton, if we establish some grounds on which to proceed. So, next time you respond, would you please tell me if you think the scientific method is a process capable of finding truth?

[sefton]

If you are asking if we have seen or have tangible proof that what we believe to be true..no we don't. When asking your questions with the limitations you have placed on them..you won't get much of an answer.

Faith is believing in something not seen. You yourself said..if God came to me himself and told me a religion was true...you would still have some doubts.

The way I see it...anything anyone would say here you would still question...so my personal thoughts...why ask? I'm not saying this to be rude. Just experience.

why ask? because you should question everything that you dont know! why not? like i said in my post, it is only by admitting you do not know, that you will be able to pursue the unknown and find out what is in fact true. if you just accept all you believe as true, then if youre wrong, you will never be disillusioned.

[Maxel]

Sefton: I am attempting to engage you in intelligent conversation. If you do not answer my question, I will be forced to assume you're not here to learn why we feel the way we feel, but only to cause problems.

Again, I ask: do you think the scientific method is adequate to ascertain truth?

[pam]

why ask? because you should question everything that you dont know! why not? like i said in my post, it is only by admitting you do not know, that you will be able to pursue the unknown and find out what is in fact true. if you just accept all you believe as true, then if youre wrong, you will never be disillusioned.

My point was sefton...you put many many limitations in your OP as to what you would accept and would not accept. If people can not give you the answers with the Spirit that they believe....why ask?

[LittleWyvern]

so anyway, many mormons will say they know with 100% certainty that the mormon church is true because they prayed about it and received feelings from god testifying that the church is true. but how do you know with 100% certainty that those feelings come from God?

This is how, at least for me:

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your dunbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good

I realize this is highly figurative, so I'll try to explain this a little bit. Basically, when I receive witness of something that I believe is of God, I try living it, applying its principles, or simply believing on it. This is the experiment in the above scripture. If doing so enlarges my soul and extends my understanding, this is proof to me that the thing that I am experimenting upon is from God. It it difficult to put this into exact words, as the process and exact result may differ slightly from person to person.

EDIT: Note that this is not circular reasoning as, at least for me, the exact process as given in the verse is not important. It can be put in even more basic terms: try to see if following the principle brings happiness, if so, than the principle must be from God, and not of the devil.

Edited March 8, 2009 by LittleWyvern

[Guest tomk]

The proof is to be had, but it does not come from man to man (for example, in this forum) but from God to man, as personal revelation.

But proof follows faith, it does not precede it.

What you are asking for is proof before having to go through what is needed to acquire that proof.

God remains undetectable through the five senses. But there is no "veil" over our feelings. That is God's chosen method of revealing Himself to us. Through our feelings. If you reject His method of revealing Himself to you, then there is not much He can do. It has nothing to do with His willingness or ability. He will not force Himself upon you.

It is through my feelings that I have come to know God lives. And I will say I know He lives. I don't just believe He lives, I know He lives!!! He has revealed Himself to me through my feelings.

D&C 8: 2

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

Gal. 5: 22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

love

joy

peace

longsuffering

gentleness

goodness

faith

Anyone and everyone who has felt one or more or any of these things has felt the witness of the Holy Ghost, which is sent forth from the presence of God to tell of us truth and remind us of our heavenly home.

It is not just feelings - but the timing - that has told me that God is real. Not just the way He has made me feel, but when.

What makes this so hard for people to accept is that it takes a certain mindset to be able to receive these things. It takes not just kneeling in prayer, but rising from that prayer and EARNESTLY LOOKING for proof that God is answering that prayer. Looking for evidence, no matter how small or how ridiculous it might seem. And then, when we detect that evidence...praying and THANKING HIM for answering our prayers. This pattern causes us to grow in the spirit of prophecy and revelation -- in the testimony of Jesus. In the knowledge of God.

I don't know why God has chosen this method of revealing Himself to us. It would be comparatively easy for Him to write a message in the sky, in glowing letters 1000 feet tall, "This is God. __________ is my true church, go join it." -- but He does not do that.

But the method He has chosen DOES work. It works just as He has promised. But we have to try it. And we have to try it consistently for a period of time. But as we persist -- He will reveal Himself to us. But it is not knowledge or proof that I can GIVE to another. It has come to me from God Himself. I know that anyone who desires this can have it.

Tom

Edited March 8, 2009 by tomk

[sefton]

Sefton: I am attempting to engage you in intelligent conversation. If you do not answer my question, I will be forced to assume you're not here to learn why we feel the way we feel, but only to cause problems.

Again, I ask: do you think the scientific method is adequate to ascertain truth?

Maxel, i dont want to get into a shouting match over semantics. my question is plain and simple and fair; answer it or dont: how can you be absolutely certain that a feeling comes from God?

your question seems like a pointless argument over semantics with out really addressing my question, but sure i guess the scientific method is a process capable of finding truth. but to prove something is true 100%, to yourself or to an entire poplutation, there has to be indisputable proof that it is true. finding truth and proof are demonstratively different things, i dont see why i need to explain that.

[pam]

I like that answer LittleWyvern.

[Elgama]

why ask? because you should question everything that you dont know! why not? like i said in my post, it is only by admitting you do not know, that you will be able to pursue the unknown and find out what is in fact true. if you just accept all you believe as true, then if youre wrong, you will never be disillusioned.

if you don't put something to the test - you will never have proof. Only way I know to test God is to listen and to do. And people that aren't willing to fail never succeed - you may aim for the treetops but you need to be prepared to accept bruises everytime you fall, even a few breaks.

-Charley

[Maxel]

Maxel, i dont want to get into a shouting match over semantics. my question is plain and simple and fair; answer it or dont: how can you be absolutely certain that a feeling comes from God?

your question seems like a pointless argument over semantics with out really addressing my question, but sure i guess the scientific method is a process capable of finding truth. but to prove something is true 100%, to yourself or to an entire poplutation, there has to be indisputable proof that it is true. finding truth and proof are demonstratively different things, i dont see why i need to explain that.

Well, as much as I 'appreciate' the preemptive decrying of my motivations and the direction I was going with this, I'll proceed.

If I were to follow a specific set of steps in a process and always achieve the same result, what would you say to that? For example, if I were the result of hitting a baseball with a bat in every conceivable environment and situation and every time the ball went flying when I hit it, is that proof enough that hitting the ball with the bat caused the ball to fly.

Also, what do you see as 'indisputable proof'?

[Guest tomk]

Maxel, i dont want to get into a shouting match over semantics. my question is plain and simple and fair; answer it or dont: how can you be absolutely certain that a feeling comes from God?

your question seems like a pointless argument over semantics with out really addressing my question, but sure i guess the scientific method is a process capable of finding truth. but to prove something is true 100%, to yourself or to an entire poplutation, there has to be indisputable proof that it is true. finding truth and proof are demonstratively different things, i dont see why i need to explain that.

Moro. 7: 5, 16-17, 22

5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

• • •

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

• • •

22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

[sefton]

This is how, at least for me:

I realize this is highly figurative, so I'll try to explain this a little bit. Basically, when I receive witness of something that I believe is of God, I try living it, applying its principles, or simply believing on it. This is the experiment in the above scripture. If doing so enlarges my soul and extends my understanding, this is proof to me that the thing that I am experimenting upon is from God. It it difficult to put this into exact words, as the process and exact result may differ slightly from person to person.

EDIT: Note that this is not circular reasoning as, at least for me, the exact process as given in the verse is not important. It can be put in even more basic terms: try to see if following the principle brings happiness, if so, than the principle must be from God, and not of the devil.

all of you seem to be missing my point entirely. i understand that you experience things that reaffirm your faith, but strong faith does not equal knowing. why do you say you know? there must be proof (NOT JUST EVIDENCE) to KNOW something, right? im not asking for you to prove it to me, im asking what your proof to yourself is, not just what the evidence is. consistent and reliable evidence doesnt equal proof

[Elgama]

all of you seem to be missing my point entirely. i understand that you experience things that reaffirm your faith, but strong faith does not equal knowing. why do you say you know? there must be proof (NOT JUST EVIDENCE) to KNOW something, right? im not asking for you to prove it to me, im asking what your proof to yourself is, not just what the evidence is. consistent and reliable evidence doesnt equal proof

the proof is my life.

-Charley

[pam]

Sefton that is exactly what people are doing. They are answering you with their knowledge, with their feelings, with their faith how they know these things to be true. With their own personal relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I think you are missing their point.

[Maxel]

consistent and reliable evidence doesnt equal proof

So.. what does equal proof? Can you give us an example of something YOU can prove that you know? Edited March 8, 2009 by Maxel
Clarifying emphasis

[pam]

I live in Utah. But do I know I really live in Utah? I mean...the signs say Utah...I pay Utah state taxes...but I can't see the borders so how do I KNOW that I really live in Utah?

[FunkyTown]

i would like an answer, once and for all, to the "how do you know" question. i can understand that it may be hard for you to explain, but please do your best. please also consider everything i say in this post and think deeply before answering.

so anyway, many mormons will say they know with 100% certainty that the mormon church is true because they prayed about it and received feelings from god testifying that the church is true. but how do you know with 100% certainty that those feelings come from God?

(P.S. i am not asking you what the feeling feels like, im asking how you can be certain whether or not a feeling comes from God, so please dont use the 'taste of salt' analogy. please also do not give circular reasoning, like saying that you know the book of mormon is true because youve had those feelings and then say that you know those feelings are true because the book of mormon says they are.)

i asked this question on another website recently and half of the people who answered were saying that they know it because they just know it (which just means they really have no basis at all for knowing it). and the other half were giving reasons that have strengthened their faith, but not a single reason that could make them KNOW. knowing does not mean abandoning all your doubts. just because you accept something as true and are convinced it's true and it makes sense to you and you get reassuring feelings from it, does not mean you KNOW. clearly, none of the people who answered really know and it is only by admitting you do not know, that you will be able to pursue the unknown and find out what is in fact true.

I'm really trying to understand your point of view because the way i see it, there is no possible way for me to literally KNOW any religion is true...Even if God himself came before me and told me a particular religion is true and even if i was overcome with amazing feelings and understanding that testified to me that the religions was true, there is really know way to know 100% that it's true...How do i know it's really God and not an evil force? or if it was God, how could i even know that i can trust God 100% in the first place? how do i know im even sane in the first place? how do i know im not in some dream world or matrix or something? i may be 99.9999% sure that the religion/church was true and have a strong faith that it is true, but there is no way i can envision under any extreme circumstances that i could know 100%

Oh, Sefton. You speak with the knowledge of the world and the wisdom of a hypocrite. By your definition, no man may know anything. You have created an impossible question. By your definition, you can not know that the words you speak have meaning, thus there is no point in following through with them.

In your world, a man may not know that the sun comes up every morning and so he must be terrified of the dark because he can never know that it will come again. He can not know that money can purchase something.

You have created a question that you do not want answered, but rather an intellectual exercise. You are using reason to promote ignorance rather than knowledge.

"The beginning of wisdom is to know you know nothing." is a principle understood by many philosophers, but lived by no one in the entire history of man because in our hearts we know it is both irrelevant and untrue. It's a principle of madness and ignorance.

And so, knowing that the question you asked is not what you're really asking. Knowing that you're actually just telling us we can not know, I will reiterate what so many have told you:

I know this is the true church of God. I know He restored this church, the church of Jesus Christ.