"How do you KNOW?"

[pam]

Bravo Funky.

[sefton]

So.. what does equal proof? Can you give us an example of something YOU can prove that you know?

ok, for example, if according to a particular religion, the world will end tomorrow, and a week later the world still hasnt ended, then that PROVES that that religion is false.

however if according to another religion, the moon is prophesied to break apart in two tomorrow, and the moon actually breaks apart in two on that day, that is not proof that the religion is true. it is only strong evidence that the religion is true

sorry, but i have to go soon, i will try to reply to everyone later.

Edited March 8, 2009 by sefton

[pam]

With that analogy of the moons you just gave....you will never believe anything. I think this conversation is pointless.

[Guest tomk]

Sefton that is exactly what people are doing. They are answering you with their knowledge, with their feelings, with their faith how they know these things to be true. With their own personal relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I think you are missing their point.

Yes. You cannot ask people "how they know" - then reject their explanation!

If I wanted to learn how to snowboard, and then during my first lesson I start telling the instructor how he can or cannot teach me -- that's a ridiculous restriction. The instructor knows that I need to focus on basics. He knows that I'm not going to start off doing all of these fancy moves. I need to learn how to keep my balance, how to STOP (when I first learned how to ski I started off by learning how to snow plough and break) how to turn.

[sefton]

With that analogy of the moons you just gave....you will never believe anything. I think this conversation is pointless.

i can believe in a religion and go by faith, but i can not know it is true and i dont know why you claim to be able to for no reason

[pam]

Well I'm sorry but I can. I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that the church I belong to is the true Church. I know I have a Heavenly Father that loves me unconditionally and that I have an Elder brother Jesus Christ that constantly puts his loving arms around me and guides me in my life.

I don't need tangible proof to know this.

[Guest tomk]

i can believe in a religion and go by faith, but i can not know it is true and i dont know why you claim to be able to for no reason

For no reason. Says you.

We are giving reasons why we know. You are just rejecting them, is all.

That is your perogative. But you must submit to God's program to come to know Him. Not because I say so, but because He says so.

[Maxel]

ok, for example, if according to a particular religion, the world will end tomorrow, and a week later the world still hasnt ended, then that PROVES that that religion is false.

however if according to another religion, the moon is prophesied to break abart in two tomorrow, and the moon actually breaks apart in two on that day, that is not proof that the religion is true. it is only strong evidence that the religion is true

sorry, but i have to go soon, i will try to reply to everyone later.

Sefton, the moon analogy, though helpful in demonstrating your opinion, is not helpful in defining how you see truth. You skirt the main issue: how can anyone know anything? What is the difference between proof and evidence? When does a body of evidence become proof?

Do you believe it's possible to KNOW anything- and I don't mean just pertaining to religion here; I'm talking about anything.

[sefton]

For no reason. Says you.

We are giving reasons why we know. You are just rejecting them, is all.

That is your perogative. But you must submit to God's program to come to know Him. Not because I say so, but because He says so.

ok, one quick reply before i go...

once again, you are giving me evidence to support your belief, but you are not telling me what your proof is and furthermore, one of you said, that you dont need proof to know it....that is strictly a LOGICAL FALLACY. by definition you must PROVE something to yourself to know it's true.

if youre really trying to answer me, just word it this way..."i am certain that the feelings ive gotten that testify of the truth of the chruch are from God because ________"

pleeeeease do not answer with evidence, answer me with what literally proves to you those feelings are from god. someone please acknowledge that EVIDENCE does NOT equal PROOF.

[pam]

Hey does anyone KNOW that these are really cute puppies?

[Maxel]

ok, one quick reply before i go...

once again, you are giving me evidence to support your belief, but you are not telling me what your proof is and furthermore, one of you said, that you dont need proof to know it....that is strictly a LOGICAL FALLACY. by definition you must PROVE something to yourself to know it's true.

if youre really trying to answer me, just word it this way..."i am certain that the feelings ive gotten that testify of the truth of the chruch are from God because ________"

pleeeeease do not answer with evidence, answer me with what literally proves to you those feelings are from god. someone please acknowledge that EVIDENCE does NOT equal PROOF.

I keep asking.. what's the difference between evidence and proof? The way I'm familiar with the terms, convincing bodies of evidence usually equal reasonable proof. Assume I'm an idiot and answer the question.

[pam]

by definition you must PROVE something to yourself to know it's true.

No actually that is YOUR definition. Please don't tell me what my definition is or must be.

[Guest Lexish]

Hey does anyone KNOW that these are really cute puppies?

I know!

1. I have seen ugly puppies, and these are NOT them.

2. When I look at them, my thoughts melt and I just think, "Aww"

3. The response from 2 is associated with cute things.

4. Thus, I know, based on my feelings and similar feelings from the past that those are cute puppies.

I could know by asking people (my roommate says YES), I could know by being stubborn and insisting my opinion is right. Or I could claim that cuteness is an opinion not a matter of knowledge.

(As for the original post, I guess those are some ways to Know something)

[pam]

That was awesome Lexish. Thank you. I was doing it in humor...but your response was most excellent.

[Connie]

Oooo, ooo, Pam, pick me, pick me! I know they're cute!

Is someone starting to sound a little familiar? perhaps a little like Korihor?

Alma 30: starting in verse 40

"And now what evidence have ye that there is no God, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.

But, behold, I have all things as a testimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true....

Will ye say, show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator."

[Guest tomk]

ok, one quick reply before i go...

once again, you are giving me evidence to support your belief, but you are not telling me what your proof is and furthermore, one of you said, that you dont need proof to know it....that is strictly a LOGICAL FALLACY. by definition you must PROVE something to yourself to know it's true.

if youre really trying to answer me, just word it this way..."i am certain that the feelings ive gotten that testify of the truth of the chruch are from God because ________"

pleeeeease do not answer with evidence, answer me with what literally proves to you those feelings are from god. someone please acknowledge that EVIDENCE does NOT equal PROOF.

..."i am certain that the feelings ive gotten that testify of the truth of the chruch are from God because ________"

because the feelings come as a result of trying-out God's "test" of knowing if it His word or not.

If someone says - do this, and this and this, and you will experience THIS, then they are providing you with the way to KNOW that they are real.

So if you do the things they ask, and experience the promised result -- well, there is your proof!!

That's what I am saying. I did what was required to know. And I received the promised witness. So what conclusion would you draw?

The Book of Mormon gives just such a promise:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

This is what God said I had to do:

read these things

remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto [ME]

ponder it in [MY] heart.

ask God if these things are true, with a sincere heart, real intent, and faith in Christ.

God promises to:

manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I did this. I received the promised witness, and in the manner indicated.

The manner in which the witness came, and the timing of it -- left no doubt in my mind that God Himself had answered me. If it is a lie, then it is the sweetest lie I've ever lived -- and has given me more peace and love and growth than I ever could have dreamed of. Once you experience it, you understand it. And not before.

Edited March 8, 2009 by tomk

[Maxel]

Ah pammie, no need to puppy-ize the convo. Just close the thread if you want, lol. I get the feeling sefton will open another one if he REALLY WANTS TO.

sefton, I do not know everything. I do not KNOW many of the beliefs I hold true. What I do know is that when I feel the Holy Ghost, I am feeling the presence and knowledge of God. How? I learn things that I could not have known otherwise. A small sliver of God's omniscience is given to me in those moments, and when that happens, there is no denying the utter joy nor the source of that joy. The source of that joy is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-merciful. The source of that joy is God.

This is the foundation of my testimony and my knowledge. It is helped by the fact that this feeling of peace acts in a predictable manner and reacts to my spiritual self. I can interact with it and invoke it through prayer and pondering.

I lay it at your feet to judge: can a bitter tree bring forth good fruit? I have seen naught but the evidence of Godliness when I live the tenets of my religion. It has changed my life, but more importantly, it has changed me. It has improved my soul and body.

You ask for 'proof', not 'evidence'. I assume the difference is in the mind of the person judging. You have not felt what I have felt. You have not experienced my experiences. You have not wrought in your life what I have wrought in mine. Proof is in the eye of the beholder because each man must go through the process himself.

You say you can live through belief. That is good. What I challenge you to do now requires belief. I cannot prove to you what I know to be true- that is, make you believe what I know is 'proof'. However, you can prove to yourself. You can turn to God in prayer and repent of your sins. You can read the Book of Mormon, having faith in Christ and really wanting to know if it is true with the intent to act on your answer, and then pray to the Father in the name of Christ if these things are not true. I promise you, if you do these things, you will be given the proof you need. It will no longer be a ragtag bundle of evidence; it will be proof.

Yet, I cannot prove these things to you. Perhaps we could discuss more if you gave me more than analogies and explained the difference between 'evidence' and 'proof'- until then, no progress can be made.

Let me put this in the format you suggested:

I am certain that the feelings I've gotten that testify of the truth of the Church are from God because they are wrought through the same process every time, where no other conceivable explanation becomes possible.

----

The reason I asked about the scientific method is this: the feelings and knowledge testifying of truth are wrought through very scientific means. That is, if we were conducting an experiment and did X, Y, and Z every time, we would get result A every time.

The steps of the process are (as read in Moroni 10:4-5):

1) Receive the things in the Book of Mormon. That is, read and ponder them.

2) Ask God the Father, in the name of Christ, if what one has received is true.

3) Ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. That is, ask with the intent of acting on one's witness (change of lifestyle, etc.) and have faith that, through Christ, receiving a witness IS possible.

The result is:

1) We shall receive a witness of the truth of these things through the Holy Ghost. Then, doubt will be removed and we will know.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Maxel

[Connie]

Giselle:

How does she know you love her?

How does she know she's yours?

Man:

How does she know that you love her?

Giselle:

How do you show her you love her?

Both:

How does she know that you really, really, truely love her?

How does she know that you love her?

How do you show her you love her?

How does she know that you really, really, truely love her?

Giselle:

It's not enough to take the one you love for granted

You must remind her, or she'll be inclined to say...

"How do I know he loves me?"

(How does she know that you love her?

How do you show her you love her?)

"How do I know he's mine?"

(How does she know that you really, really, truely love her?)

Well does he leave a little note to tell you you are on his mind?

Send you yellow flowers when the sky is grey? Heyy!

He'll find a new way to show you, a little bit everyday

That's how you know, that's how you know!

He's your love...

Man:

You've got to show her you need her

Don't treat her like a mind reader

Each day do something to need her

To believe you love her

Giselle:

Everybody wants to live happily ever after

Everybody wants to know their true love is true...

How do you know he loves you?

(How does she know that you love her?

How do you show her you need her?)

How do you know he's yours?

(How does she know that you really, really, truely-)

Well does he take you out dancin' just so he can hold you close?

Dedicate a song with words in

Just for you? Ohhh!

All:

He'll find his own way to tell you

With the little things he'll do

That's how you know

That's how you know!

Giselle:

He's your love

He's your love...

That's how you know

(la la la la la la la la)

He loves you

(la la la la la la la la)

That's how you know

(la la la la la la la la)

It's true

(la la la la la)

Because he'll wear your favorite color

Just so he can match your eyes

Rent a private picnic

By the fires glow-oohh!

All:

His heart will be yours forever

Something everyday will show

That's how you know

(That's how you know)

That's how you know

(That's how you know)

That's how you know

(That's how you know)

That's how you know

(That's how you know)

That's how you know

(That's how you know)

That's how you know

(That's how you know)

That's how you know!

Giselle:

He's your love...

Man:

That's how she knows that you love her

That's how you show her you love her

Giselle:

That's how you know...

That's how you know...

He's your love...

I would sing along but i've had a stuff nose and sore throat and it would not sound pretty.

[LittleWyvern]

ok, for example, if according to a particular religion, the world will end tomorrow, and a week later the world still hasnt ended, then that PROVES that that religion is false.

however if according to another religion, the moon is prophesied to break apart in two tomorrow, and the moon actually breaks apart in two on that day, that is not proof that the religion is true. it is only strong evidence that the religion is true

sorry, but i have to go soon, i will try to reply to everyone later.

You have yet to explain how we can "prove," according to your definition, whether something is true, although you've given us a simple disproof by contradiction. You're not a nihilist, are you?

EDIT: All of scientific knowledge, for instance, is build upon strong, repeatable evidence. If you only believe things that are rigidly and 100% logically proven, then by that definition you only know mathematics and nothing else.

Edited March 8, 2009 by LittleWyvern
I KNOW I can't spell. :(

[pam]

Ah pammie, no need to puppy-ize the convo.

But I like the puppies and I just wanted to share. lol

[Maxel]

You have yet to explain how we can "prove," according to your definition, whether something is true, although you've given us a simple disproof by contradiction. You're not a nihilist, are you?

EDIT: All of scientific knowledge, for instance, is build upon strong, repeatable evidence. If you only believe things that are rigidly and 100% logically proven, then by that definition you only know mathematics and nothing else.

Thanks. This is where I was going, but sefton refused to answer me. Maybe because he knows the weakness of his own position?

[pam]

I would like to thank those of you that provided scriptures, insight and yes your testimony here on this thread. You have brightened my day. Thank you.

[bytor2112]

Members of the LDS church say things like "I know" because they have experienced something sacred and holy and this experience removes doubt. We believe that we are spirit, wrapped in a tabernacle of flesh and bone. The flesh will eventually die, but the spirit is eternal. As eternal beings, we understand eternal truths through spiritual experience. The spiritual experience that I described as sacred and holy is the Holy Spirit communing with our spirit, bringing to our remembrance, eternal truths. Our faith, God and Christ...are revealed by the Holy Spirit. Until you have been in the presence of holiness, it's hard to understand. If it were not for these experiences, I wouldn't believe in God and I wouldn't be a member of the LDS church. If you really want to know, you can find out for your self.

Attend an LDS church and hook up with some missionaries. A bit of warning in advance, you have to have real intent......if you do, your life will change forever and you will become like this former athiest....someone who "knows".

[BenRaines]

I didn't read the whole thread but how does anyone know that we are not just a part of someones dream and when they wake up our existence will be over?

What is to know with certainty and what is trusting or believing. I do not believe we were sent to earth to know but to believe, to have faith.

I don't even KNOW if this thread makes sense.

Just my unknowing opinion.

Ben Raines

[Guest kulds]

I'm really trying to understand your point of view because the way i see it, there is no possible way for me to literally KNOW any religion is true...Even if God himself came before me and told me a particular religion is true and even if i was overcome with amazing feelings and understanding that testified to me that the religions was true, there is really know way to know 100% that it's true...How do i know it's really God and not an evil force? or if it was God, how could i even know that i can trust God 100% in the first place? how do i know im even sane in the first place? how do i know im not in some dream world or matrix or something? i may be 99.9999% sure that the religion/church was true and have a strong faith that it is true, but there is no way i can envision under any extreme circumstances that i could know 100%

I really don’t see where the burden of proof rests upon the shoulders of the members here but rather on the person asking the question. But as for the Matrix gig, I’d totally go for waking up wearing a black leather trench coat fighting bad guys . I wouldn’t recommend telling the G-man square in the face you don’t believe a word he says, but if you do write down my cell cause I gotta see that. But uh, I’m going to stand a few blocks down with a telescope and radiation suit. Good luck with that one!