Ancient Michigan Plates

[Therauh]

Some of you might find this interesting if you haven't heard of them before.

Ancient American: Articles Issue 26 page 1

[livy111us]

I'd be careful with the "Michigan relics". Most of them have been proven to be fraudulent, and the others are very controversial. You can read a very brief article on the subject here:

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/QArch.pdf

and this is a review of a DVD that supports the Michigan relics and a North American setting for The Book of Mormon. About 3/4 of the way down, the authors deal with these artifacts.

Section 5: Identifying the Nephites

These were championed by two authors, Wayne May and Ed Goble. After they published a book which contained the relics, Goble began to discover that these artifacts couldn't hold up to scrutiny, and were fakes. He then retracted his statements about the relics, and distanced himself from May, who continues to argue their authenticity.

Also, LDS Apostle James E. Talmage studied the Michigan relics and declared them to be forgeries.

There is A LOT of really cool evidences for The Book of Mormon, but this is not one of them.

Edited March 12, 2009 by livy111us

[Moksha]

From the looks of these ancient runes, I would speculate that they involve the tale of a race of Tin Woodsmen, who existed long before the great flood in the supercontinent of Oz.

Oh, wait a minute. Just noticed the big cross in the center. Nevermind.

[talisyn]

When I read the title of this thread I thought it was gonna be about circa 1910 Michigan license plates...obviously I need to go to sleep before I hurt my brain. Good job finding the story, Therauh, because every so often something comes around that no one can explain without the BoM. I'm thinking this probably isn't one of those times but the next one might be!

[Therauh]

Michigan Tablet depicting Christ's crucifixion. Tablet is made of a clay material, fired or sun dried, in the archives of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah. Photograph ©, courtesy of David A. Deal.

Interesting that the lds hang onto this one then.

So whats fake or forged about them?

Obviously some of these indians believed already in the things wrote on them.

What differs from what the book of mormon or what even the bible state other than its pretty hard to write the whole account on a couple rocks?They still appear to be records.

How do they not lend more credibility to the book of mormon?

Luke 19

37When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

38"Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"

"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

[Ghost_Rider]

very interesting artical. The question that is stuck in the back of my brain is this:

Where is the provedence located for this object? If it is truely an Archeological find then there should be a record of it somewhere. Finding that and the archeologist that did find it should bring some questions to light on this subect. While it is true that we do need to be careful about such finds there are exciting find that are being found yet today.

Also it is interesting to point out that after reading the misson statement of this magazine they tend to delve into alot of the unusual finds. Case in point...the 4 Hebrew Brothers. Very interesting. Thanks for bringing this up Therauh,

Sorry..Amature Archy who reads WAY too much!!!!

[WillowTheWhisp]

I had a Shoshone friend, who died a few years ago, who told me they had tribal traditions of the son of the Great Spirit visiting their ancestors.

[livy111us]

The forgeries themselves were donated to the Church a few years ago, but the Church gave them them to a museum in Michigan in 2004.

As I said before, scientist and LDS Apostle declared them to be fake. One reason he believed they were fake was because of the material they are made of. They are made of clay. As you know, Michigan is a very wet area and anything that was made of perishable material would, well, perish. These artifacts, when a little water was added to them, began to disintegrate. It makes you wonder how they could have been preserved so well buried in a very wet area for 2,000 years. Elder Talmage also found the step-daughter of the man who discovered the relics and Talmage recorded that she "...solemnly declared to me that she positively knows her step-father, James Scotford, has made, buried, and dug up many of the articles reported to be genuine archaeological relics. She gave circumstantial details, and agreed to sign a written statement with the proviso that such statement shall not be made public without her consent during the lifetime of her mother, Mrs. Jas. Scotford."

In context of the disintegrating material with a testimony of family saying it was forged, is a double hit against the relics.

They have been studied many times since the original proclamation that they were fakes, and the general concensus is that they are fake. Again, not to promising for them.

Here is a brief history of them:

One of the most enduring archaeological hoaxes, the Michigan relics, a series of copper, slate, and clay forgeries, were "discovered" throughout counties in Michigan from the late 19th century until 1920. James Scotford and Daniel Soper apparently worked together to create and sell the forgeries. Scholars and archaeologists were skeptical from the outset, but interest in the objects persisted. In 1911 James E. Talmage studied the relics, recognizing the impact they could have on the perception of the Book of Mormon if they were genuine. In a detailed report, Talmage dismissed them as blatant forgeries.

However, interest revived in 1984 when a series of authors began writing about the relics, attributing their engravings to Zoroastrian, Christian, and other Old World influences (see JBMS 7/1 [1998]: 78). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had acquired almost 800 such objects through a donation from the University of Notre Dame. Richard Stamps, Latter-day Saint professor of archaeology at Oakland University, examined the collection in 1977 and again in 1998 and 1999. He likewise declared the relics to be forgeries (see his article "Tools Leave Marks: Material Analysis of the Scotford-Soper-Savage Michigan Relics," BYU Studies 40/3 [2001]; also see Mark Ashurst-McGee, "Mormonism's Encounter with the Michigan Relics," in that same issue of BYU Studies).

While the items clearly are not evidence of an ancient civilization, they are artifacts of Michigan's history. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recently donated the collection to the Michigan Historical Museum in Lansing, where pieces were on display through August 2004. The exhibit, "Digging Up Controversy," included commentary depicting the objects as fraudulent but nevertheless reflective of earlier Michigan citizens' fixation with archaeology and ancient civilizations

Frederick Starr, J.O. Kinnaman, and James E. Talmage, "The Michigan Archaeological Question Settled," The American Antiquairian and Oriental Journal 33, no. 3 (1911): 160–164.

[livy111us]

An article from the Associated Press reads:

Mormon church donates debunked artifacts to Michigan museum

The Associated Press/October 27, 2003

Grand Rapids, Mich. -- Some of the now-debunked Michigan Relics -- once considered by some influential Mormons as evidence of the church's connection to a Near Eastern culture in ancient America -- have a new home.

For decades, the Mormon Church kept a large collection of the artifacts in its Salt Lake City museum, but never formally claimed them to be genuine.

This past summer, after scholars examined the relics and declared them fakes, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints donated the 797 objects to the Michigan Historical Museum, which will display them next month.

The relics were once hailed as the greatest archaeological discoveries since Pompeii. But there are many clues they are really fakes, Michigan State Archaeologist John Halsey told The Grand Rapids Press.

Among the relics are engraved slate tablets. One scene depicts the crucifixion of Christ. The problem is, all the engravings tell stories of the Old Testament.

"It is arguably the largest archaeological fraud ever in this country, and the longest running," Halsey said.

James Scotford claimed he found the first relic -- a large clay casket -- while digging a post hole on a Michigan farm in October 1890. He announced his discovery, touching off a frenzy of digging.

Over the next 30 years, thousands of artifacts were found, including tiny caskets, amulets, tools, smoking pipes and tablets. The items were made of clay, copper and slate, and most bore the mark "IH/," which some interpreted as a tribal signature or a mystic symbol. Some thought it was a variation on IHS, the ancient Hebrew symbol for Jehovah.

A syndicate was formed to corner the market and sell the items to the highest bidder, perhaps the Smithsonian Institution.

Oddly, nearly all the items were found when Scotford, a former magician and sleight-of-hand expert, was present.

Almost from the beginning, skeptics doubted the authenticity of the finds. Francis Kelsey, a University of Michigan Latin professor, called them forgeries in 1892.

The relics, however, had their vocal promoters, chief among them Daniel Soper, a former Michigan Secretary of State who was forced to resign because of corruption.

In the early 1900s, Soper teamed with Scotford to sell the objects. They enlisted the support of the Rev. James Savage, a priest at Most Holy Trinity Catholic Church in Detroit.

Historians and archaeologists today believe Savage, who became the most avid collector, was not privy to the scam, but was duped to give the finds credibility. Savage believed the artifacts were left by the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel or a colony of ancient Jews.

In 1911, Scotford's stepdaughter signed an affidavit saying she saw her stepfather making the relics.

Savage died still believing the Michigan Relics were genuine. He bequeathed his large collection to Notre Dame University. When a pair of Mormon missionaries found the collection there in 1960, the university gladly donated it to the church.

In 1977, the church asked Richard Stamps, a Mormon and Oakland University archaeology professor, to examine the relics.

Stamps also concluded they were fakes. The copper relics, he said, were made from ordinary commercial copper stock and had been treated with chemicals to make it look older.

In 1998-99, Stamps again studied the relics in the Mormon collection and reached the same conclusion.

"Poor Father Savage. I feel so sorry for this Catholic father," Stamps said. "I think Scotford was cranking these things out and slipping them into the ground, and I think Savage didn't have a clue." Through Stamps, the Mormon Church decided to donate its collection to the Michigan Historical Museum in Lansing. It arrived there recently, and workers began preparing the Michigan Relics for an exhibit opening Nov. 15 and running through Aug. 15.

[livy111us]

I may be sounding harsh against this, but I believe they are fraudulent and also believe that believing in fraudulent artifacts can do more harm than good. I believe that groups of Nephites migrated North to Ohio and Michigan and had several correct beliefs, and who knows, Christ may have visited them as well. So it's not so much of a geography thing with me as it is I want accurate information. I also believe that I use the word "believe" to much :)

Here are some accurate evidences of The Book of Mormon:

Mormon Truth and Book of Mormon Evidences: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility

Most anything from FARMS

Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - Home

and FAIR has some good videos here:

YouTube - fairldsorg's Channel

to name a few.

[rameumptom]

I also agree that these are fakes. After Joseph Smith's discovery of the metal plates, everyone for the next century were involved in trying to find artifacts of all kinds. And to become famous and make some money, several fraudulent items appeared on the market.

I do not know of a single scholar, LDS or otherwise, that accepts the Michigan Plates as real.

We really do not need to "prove" the LDS Church true by using garbage evidence. There's plenty of good evidence out there to gain people's attention to the Restoration.

[Therauh]

I understand where your coming from on that side of it and can certainly understand.I honestly don't know whether or not they are fake, nonetheless they have an interesting story upon them that seems to line up with the BoM.Anyways I thought it was an interesting article.It seems rational that if they are clay they might be more deteriorated.A few of them don't look like clay tho.

Honestly,I'm not totally convinced about the BoM either tho.Got any pictures of the real one?I'm still trying to stay open minded about it tho I haven't recieved a for sure witness of it but I do have a witness of The Lord.I'm hesitant to share that tho, but I might at some point.It might be a witness to the BoM also but I'm not sure what to make of it or if it goes that far.Its certainly on my mind tho.

[livy111us]

Here are some cool videos on some Book of Mormon places that have been found

a six part series, this is just the first:

and linguistical evidence of The Book of Mormon (also a 6 part series, this is just the first. You can go to the second by clicking on "This is a video response to

which is directly underneath the video)

And some interesting DNA and Biological parallels with The Book of Mormon

But of course, no evidence is stronger than the one from God. The Spirit of God will tell us truth better than any scholar, evidence, or archaeological site. I'd recommend keep reading the Book of Mormon and continue in prayer. That is your best bet at arriving at truth.

You ask "Got any pictures of the real one?" I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Pictures of what? Whatever it is, I'll do my best to provide them.

God bless,

livy111us

[Therauh]

Thanks For the links

Unfortunately I'm far enough in the wilderness I cant watch them.

Hopelfully someday I'll have highspeed again.

As far as the picture thing please forgive me.

What I was infering was that the book we read isn't really the original either and some may consider that a forgery since the real one can't be produced at this time,only reproduced.That doesn't make it not true or a forgery tho does it.Anyways I'm sorry I said that the way I did in the other post and hope you nor anyone else take offense.I felt like what I posted was being critiqued for authenticity and all I wanted to do was say this seems interesting not that they were ancient prophetic records by some shaman in direct contact with God.Maybe someone did make them up to mislead or make money perhaps they were just heirlooms to some family at some time that were for retelling a story.

Anyways Thanks for the conversation and rescources to check out and I 100% agree with you on the Ruah.

[rameumptom]

The differences between the BoM plates and the Michigan plates include the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. None of them denied seeing the plates, even though several left the Church. Meanwhile, there is a statement from the daughter of one of the "discoverers" of the Michigan plates claiming it is a fake.

The BoM's text has since shown itself rather reliable in showing ancient Hebrew and Mesoamerican thought and practice, including dozens of Hebrew and Egyptian names that were not known in Joseph Smith's time; places found (Nahom, Arabian Bountiful, etc); ancient place names in Mesoamerica such as Lamanai; ties to ancient Hebrew rites; information on the First Temple rites unknown in Joseph's time (Tree of Life/Asherah, etc); and the list goes on and on.

The Michigan plates do not have any of these things. A drawing of a man on a cross with roman soldiers nearby does not mean anything ancient. Now, if it showed other ancient concepts that were not known in 19th century America, THEN it would be evidence of it being real.

[Therauh]

I guess what makes me curious about them is not so much the pictures as the writing on them.

I wonder if they match any of the writing found in the original BoM and if they matched how would the supposed forger manage to come by the knowledge to reproduce it.

[livy111us]

I know that there were several people who were creating forgeries in an attempt to trick the Church in accepting them, and thereby, casting doubt on The Book of Mormon. I don't think that was the case with the Michigan relics, I believe they were doing it more for profit. Who knows, they may have even got the idea of Israelites in the Americas from The Book of Mormon.

I can't find anything online, but there is a seal found in Mesoamerica that dates to 200 BC? that just so happen to have several of the same characters as what was found on the Golden Plates. This seal is called the Tlatilco seal.