Gayness

[pushka]

Shanstress70 and Curvette...I agree entirely with your recent posts...I can't add anything to them...however I feel that this argument is about to go round in circles because ultimately some of us here believe that being gay is not a choice and others feel, just as adamently that it is...and the same goes as to whether it is a sin or not...'fraid I don't see this difference of opinion ever being settled!!

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 17 2005, 05:20 PM

Shanstress70 and Curvette...I agree entirely with your recent posts...I can't add anything to them...however I feel that this argument is about to go round in circles because ultimately some of us here believe that being gay is not a choice and others feel, just as adamently that it is...and the same goes as to whether it is a sin or not...'fraid I don't see this difference of opinion ever being settled!!

I agree. I've noticed some posters who seem to recognize that homosexuality is not a choice for some, but still think their lifestyle is evil. I think it's good to try to realize what homosexuals lives are like if they try to reconcile who they are with religion.

[pushka]

Yes...'Walk a mile in my shoes' springs to mind at this point...

[pushka]

Just in case any of you youngsters are not familiar with this little Elvis ditty...here's the words...suppose they could be used for any situation...

(words & music by joe south)

If I could be you, if you could be me

For just one hour, if we could find a way

To get inside each other’s mind

If you could see you through my eyes

Instead your own ego I believe you’d be

I believe you’d be surprised to see

That you’ve been blind

Walk a mile in my shoes

Just walk a mile in my shoes

Before you abuse, criticize and accuse

Then walk a mile in my shoes

Now if we spend the day

Throwin’ stones at one another

’cause I don’t think, ’cause I don’t think

Or wear my hair the same way you do

Well, I may be common people

But I’m your brother

And when you strike out

You’re tryin’ to hurt me

It’s hurtin’ you, lord how mercy

Now there are people on reservations

And out in the ghetto

And brother there, but, for the grace of god

Go you and i,

If I only had wings of a little angel

Don’t you know, I’d fly

To the top of a mountain

And then I’d cry, cry, cry

[Cal]

Originally posted by Ray+Feb 16 2005, 02:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Feb 16 2005, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -pushka@Feb 16 2005, 01:38 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Feb 16 2005, 01:11 PM

Ray: Not that the boy child would inevitably grow up to be homosexual himself, but clearly there would be a greater tendency to think it’s okay, don’t you think?

S: I don't think, but that is where we differ so greatly. I think that if someone is going to be gay, they are going to be gay whether they have gay or straight parents - because I believe people are born gay or straight. I respect your belief though.

I wasn’t talking about whether or not a person is born to be “gay”, or not, I was stating that the child would be more inclined to think that being “gay” is “okay” because he would have grown up around it without it seeming to be a “big deal”, regardless of whether or not is truly is a big deal. Or in other words, people can subject themselves to just about anything and eventually come to think it’s okay or the “norm”, even when in fact it is not okay or the “norm”. I was simply stating that fact.

I think the ideas of considering something...lifestyle or otherwise, being 'okay' or 'the norm' is a matter of personal choice...I do accept that some people have been abused (I am not talking about within homosexual relationships with children they adopt here) as children, and they may feel that the abuse is normal behaviour...however, to gay people their sexuality is normal, it's only the people who object to it who feel it is abnormal or wrong...as long as they do not abuse the child in their care I don't feel that they are going to harm the child or alter the way that the child is going to view his or her own sexual preferences.

And I say that to find out whether or not something is right or wrong, we need to Ask God whether or not it is right or wrong. After all, God will be our judge, and His determination of what is right or wrong IS what is right or wrong, and it will be based up by the common consent of everybody who has ever lived on this planet.

Heh, right now, I'd say the odds are greatly stacked against the people who are going to be voting that homosexuality should be considered "okay".

Where is this petition where we are going to see the ballot say:

check here if gays are ok______

check here if gays are not ok_____

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Feb 17 2005, 11:31 AM

Shan,

If someone is born with an innate love for starting fires, do we have to love the arsonist the way he is?

In case the reader is logically challenged enough to mistake this for a comparison of gays to arsonists (a standard homosexualist response to this kind of argument), I'll draw a bright red circle around the point this argument is really making, which is: Whether a predilection to do something is innate (genetic, hormonal or otherwise) has nothing to do with whether, in the final analysis, it is right or wrong -- because we all agree that some innate tendencies (like the one mentioned above), if acted upon, lead to wrongful conduct.

PD---the problem with your argument, as I may have said before is, what makes it wrong? Arson is wrong because it interfers with anothers right to life and property. How does gayness fit in? Also, acts like arson, burglary etc are, as you know, malum en se? They ought to be shunned by the very innate harm they cause to others. It is far from clear that gayness, practiced privately, as most hetero sexual acts are, is harmful to anyone else.

If society just arbitrarily decides that a certain life style, with no particular harm to anyone else, is going to be discriminated against, then that is a societal problem, not the problem of the gay, but a problem of the rest of society. Gayness is not going to go away because gays are discriminated against or persecuted. It has genetic components, as we have discussed, that simply won't go away with the wishing.

The essence of my argument is not that everyone should be gay, or even be forced to associate with a gay person. We are all free to chose our own friends. But thatis a far cry from insisting that gays be given the right to be who they are, and at least some civil rights to go along with it.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+ Feb 17 2005, 10:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Feb 17 2005, 10:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But Ray, I explained that MY thoughts on gayness is that although not perfect, it is something that someone is born with.

Being sexually active with a member of the same sex is not something a person is born with. Surely you can admit that much.

You might contend that a person is born with the desire to have sex with a member of the same sex, but I would also disagree with that. To be honest, the most we could say is that the desire to have sex with someone of the same sex is a dormant desire that doesn’t develop until a person reaches the age of being sexually driven, but even then we are only talking about the DESIRE to have sex with someone of the same sex, and not the ACT of having sex with someone of the same sex.

And in case you don’t realize it, there are only 2 sexes on this planet, which are male and female.

Originally posted by -curvette@ Feb 17 2005, 12:02 PM

It depends on whether or not the innate tendency is something that is harmful to others. Pyromania, kleptomania, pedophilia, and homicidal tendencies are all things that rob others of their rights. What two monogomous, homosexual individuals do in the privacy of their own home doesn't hurt anyone else.

I think our goal should be to do only those things that will benefit us and others, not to simply avoid those things that don’t hurt other people. From that perspective, I think we should all be able to acknowledge that we should rely only upon those people who know what will benefit us, and then acknowledge God as our ultimate source of that information.

And frankly, I can’t see that it does any good for any person to gratify a desire to have sex with a member of the same sex. And please don’t come back to me with the idea that persons who engage in homosexual activity can still be honest, law abiding citizens, or that people who engage in homosexual activity can still give love to someone just as well as a person who engages in heterosexual activity, because I don’t have any argument with those ideas. What I am saying is that homosexual activity doesn’t do any good in and of itself.

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@ Feb 17 2005, 02:19 PM

I'm rambling, but my point, again, is that whether a disposition for behavior is innate is irrelevant to determine whether it is right or not.

I agree.

<!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@ Feb 17 2005, 02:27 PM

First, it's not my business to tell anyone he's going to hell, no matter whether I think what does is right or wrong. God makes that judgment, not me, and I will probably be surprised one way or another how things turn out.

You're seeming to suggest that since most gay people probably won't abandon gay sex no matter what society says, we should just let the whole thing slide. If that's what you're saying, I disagree. The whole point of moral standards is that they call people to do what they wouldn't naturally do. Some will accept the standards, and some won't. That's their business.

I pretty much agree with this, but I also believe that all of us have the moral responsibility to declare Faith and Repentance to everyone who doesn’t know God and seek to know His will so that they can make better decisions. In other words, people should not do only what they think is right, or what you think is right, or what I or anybody else but God thinks is right, and to know that we all need to have a relationship with God wherein we can know what He thinks.

And btw, to think that God would tell one person that something is “okay” and then tell someone else in the same circumstance that the same thing is not “okay” would either make God a respecter of persons or someone who gives conflicting information, and I testify that God would not do that, so don’t go telling me that everybody is doing the right thing simply because they make the claim that God said it was “okay”.

“Some” people are obviously being deceived, but God is the judge and He will clarify who was right and who was wrong to those who don't already know it.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Ray+Feb 18 2005, 11:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Feb 18 2005, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@ Feb 17 2005, 10:09 AM

But Ray, I explained that MY thoughts on gayness is that although not perfect, it is something that someone is born with.

Being sexually active with a member of the same sex is not something a person is born with.

Surely you can admit that much. You might then contend that a person is born with the desire to have sex with a member of the same sex, but I would also disagree with that. To be honest, the most we could say is that the desire to have sex with someone of the same sex is a dormant desire that doesn’t develop until a person reaches the age of being sexually driven, but even then we are only talking about the DESIRE to have sex with someone of the same sex, and not the ACT of having sex with someone of the same sex.

And in case you don’t realize it, there are only 2 sexes on this planet, which are male and female.

Originally posted by -curvette@ Feb 17 2005, 12:02 PM

It depends on whether or not the innate tendency is something that is harmful to others. Pyromania, kleptomania, pedophilia, and homicidal tendencies are all things that rob others of their rights. What two monogomous, homosexual individuals do in the privacy of their own home doesn't hurt anyone else.

I think our goal should be to do only those things that will benefit us, not to simply avoid those things that don’t hurt other people. From that perspective, I think we should all be able to acknowledge that we should rely only upon those people who know what will benefit us, and then acknowledge God as our ultimate source of that information.

And frankly, I can’t see that it does any good for any person to gratify a desire to have sex with a member of the same sex. And please don’t come back to me with the idea that persons who engage in homosexual activity can still be honest, law abiding citizens, or that people who engage in homosexual activity can still give love to someone just as well as a person who engages in heterosexual activity, because I don’t have any argument with those ideas. What I am saying is that homosexual activity doesn’t do any good in and of itself.

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@ Feb 17 2005, 02:19 PM

I'm rambling, but my point, again, is that whether a disposition for behavior is innate is irrelevant to determine whether it is right or not.

I agree.

<!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck

@ Feb 17 2005, 02:27 PM

First, it's not my business to tell anyone he's going to hell, no matter whether I think what does is right or wrong. God makes that judgment, not me, and I will probably be surprised one way or another how things turn out.

You're seeming to suggest that since most gay people probably won't abandon gay sex no matter what society says, we should just let the whole thing slide. If that's what you're saying, I disagree. The whole point of moral standards is that they call people to do what they wouldn't naturally do. Some will accept the standards, and some won't. That's their business.

I pretty much agree with this, but I also believe that some people have the duty to declare Faith and Repentance to everyone who doesn’t know and seek to know God’s will so that they can make better decisions. In other words, people should not do only what they think is right, or what you think is right, or what I or anybody else thinks is right, but what God thinks is right, and to know that we all need to have a relationship with God wherein we can know what He thinks.

Good post. :)

[Ray]

Inserted before I noticed Amilia’s comment:

Originally posted by Ray@ Feb 18 2005, 10:14 AM

…And btw, to think that God would tell one person that something is “okay” and then tell someone else in the same circumstance that the same thing is not “okay” would either make God a respecter of persons or someone who gives conflicting information, and I testify that God would not do that, so don’t go telling me that everybody is doing the right thing simply because they make the claim that God said it was “okay”.

“Some” people are obviously being deceived, but God is the judge and He will clarify who was right and who was wrong to those who don't already know it.

[shanstress70]

Ray, lets agree to disagree. :)

[Ray]

Disagree about what? Do you honestly disagree with everything I’ve said?

For the record, I testify that God does not want any of us to engage in homosexual activity because it doesn’t and won’t do us any good.

If you disagree with what I have just said, that is your right and I will live despite what you believe. In fact, I’ll even die to protect your right to believe whatever you choose to believe, as long as your beliefs allow other people to believe what they choose to believe.

Beliefs and Actions are different, though, and I’ll do what I can to see that criminals are brought to justice, whether their acts are for good or evil.

Btw, I now intend this to be my last post for a while. I now see that I do have OCD, and I am striving to be temperate in all things.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 18 2005, 10:14 AM

And in case you don’t realize it, there are only 2 sexes on this planet, which are male and female.

Wrongo. A large percentage of us are male or female, but many more intersexed (hermaphrodite) people are born than most people are. Do your homework.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 18 2005, 10:14 AM

What I am saying is that homosexual activity doesn’t do any good in and of itself.

Neither does golfing.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 18 2005, 12:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 18 2005, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Feb 18 2005, 10:14 AM

And in case you don’t realize it, there are only 2 sexes on this planet, which are male and female.

Wrongo. A large percentage of us are male or female, but many more intersexed (hermaphrodite) people are born than most people are. Do your homework.

I’d say you’ve been reading from too many books with bad reasoning. Has someone actually managed to convince you that Mankind consists of something other than Men and Women, or Male and Female? That would be funny if it weren’t sad.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

[sgallan]

**** What I am saying is that homosexual activity doesn’t do any good in and of itself. ****

So if I am to understand..... you are also against any heterosexual activity which doesn't make babies?

**** For the record, I testify that God does not want any of us to engage in homosexual activity because it doesn’t and won’t do us any good. ****

For the record I do not believe in your god, you cannot prove such a god, and I further think that your belief in this mythical figure has caused you to want to harm those who do not believe as you do.

*** Beliefs and Actions are different, though, and I’ll do what I can to see that criminals are brought to justice, whether their acts are for good or evil.****

Which is why I am so against theocracies. I am not even gay, but somehow I don't think I'd last long in an conservative religious theocracy. Y'all don't much like those save people who believe almost exactly as you do.

[sgallan]

**** I pretty much agree with this, but I also believe that all of us have the moral responsibility to declare Faith and Repentance to everyone who doesn’t know God and seek to know His will so that they can make better decisions. In other words, people should not do only what they think is right, or what you think is right, or what I or anybody else but God thinks is right, and to know that we all need to have a relationship with God wherein we can know what He thinks. *****

Interestingly enough, not only do I think this type of belief is in general immoral, but if such a posited god was actually proven, and you are an example of the fruits of this posited god, I would do virtually anything to NOT spend an eternity with such a being. That eternity would truly be heII.

[sgallan]

**** What could be more harmful to someone than to allow them to live in sin without warning them of the consequences to their actions, when I know they will be judged?

And btw, the most important trait a friend should have is LOVE. *****

After reading what you consider friendship and especially 'love'..... please please please do NOT be a friend or love me. I think you have the meanings of the words confused.

[sgallan]

FWIW Ray,

You are an example why as the primary parent in this house I am teaching my gifted little one in an entirely secular household. With any religious teaching being just in the academic sense, with no religion being taught as more true, true, or less true than another. I see a lot of potential for harm in religion and given I am a non-believer, comfortable in my values, I feel it is my duty as a parent to teach my child the same.

Given she is smart and logical, and I am a pretty good teacher, I think I'll make a pretty good case for being an agnostic as well. And given I am a non-believer, while still a loving and doting father, bearing up under a lot of trying circumstances at the moment, I think she will never learn that being non-religious, or being a non-believer is a bad thing or a good thing. It just 'is'. She will be taught religion, and religious beliefs has a lot of good, and a lot of bad. Mostly though, people are just people. Good, bad, nice, mean, open minded, close minded, and everything inbetween.

[Ray]

Ray: What I am saying is that homosexual activity doesn’t do any good in and of itself.

Scott: So if I am to understand..... you are also against any heterosexual activity which doesn't make babies?

I am against any sexual activity except that which is between a Man and a Woman who are married to each other. Not that their sexual activity will lead to the creation of a baby every time they have sexual activity together, but at least the sexual activity has a purpose and will benefit the persons involved when they someday have a baby, which they undoubtedly will at some point in the future as long as they remain married to each other throughout eternity.

Ray: For the record, I testify that God does not want any of us to engage in homosexual activity because it doesn’t and won’t do us any good.

Scott: For the record I do not believe in your god, you cannot prove such a god, and I further think that your belief in this mythical figure has caused you to want to harm those who do not believe as you do.

Anybody who knows what stars represent while using their brain should be able to admit there is a God. The mystery is in knowing what God is like and whether or not He is willing to help us progress. I suggest you consider that and what you will say to Him once you see Him.

And btw, the idea that I want to cause anyone any harm is a false belief.

Ray: Beliefs and Actions are different, though, and I’ll do what I can to see that criminals are brought to justice, whether their acts are for good or evil.

Scott: Which is why I am so against theocracies. I am not even gay, but somehow I don't think I'd last long in a conservative religious theocracy. Y'all don't much like those same people who believe almost exactly as you do.

People with the same beliefs are not always the same type of people, you know. I will admit that I don't particularly like people with the same beliefs I have that don't at least try to live up to them, but I do still love them for the persons they could be.

[Ray]

Originally posted by sgallan@Feb 18 2005, 03:53 PM

**** I pretty much agree with this, but I also believe that all of us have the moral responsibility to declare Faith and Repentance to everyone who doesn’t know God and seek to know His will so that they can make better decisions. In other words, people should not do only what they think is right, or what you think is right, or what I or anybody else but God thinks is right, and to know that we all need to have a relationship with God wherein we can know what He thinks. *****

Interestingly enough, not only do I think this type of belief is in general immoral, but if such a posited god was actually proven, and you are an example of the fruits of this posited god, I would do virtually anything to NOT spend an eternity with such a being. That eternity would truly be heII.

The belief that people should seek to know what is right and what is wrong from “the highest possible intelligent source of information” is immoral? I’ve told you several times that you don’t have to believe in the God that I believe in, but you should at least try to find out about God to know what God thinks, don’t you think? To think that you have all the wisdom you can possibly attain is to think that You are God, and from what I know about You, I wouldn’t care to spend eternity with You either.

[Ray]

Originally posted by sgallan@Feb 18 2005, 04:02 PM

FWIW Ray,

You are an example why as the primary parent in this house I am teaching my gifted little one in an entirely secular household. With any religious teaching being just in the academic sense, with no religion being taught as more true, true, or less true than another. I see a lot of potential for harm in religion and given I am a non-believer, comfortable in my values, I feel it is my duty as a parent to teach my child the same.

Given she is smart and logical, and I am a pretty good teacher, I think I'll make a pretty good case for being an agnostic as well. And given I am a non-believer, while still a loving and doting father, bearing up under a lot of trying circumstances at the moment, I think she will never learn that being non-religious, or being a non-believer is a bad thing or a good thing. It just 'is'. She will be taught religion, and religious beliefs has a lot of good, and a lot of bad. Mostly though, people are just people. Good, bad, nice, mean, open minded, close minded, and everything inbetween.

The main idea behind most religions is a belief that there is an ultimate form and source of intelligence in the universe, with the highest form of intelligence being referred to as God. And while you might be pretty smart, and pretty nice, and able to do a lot of pretty good things for your daughter, I’m sure she will someday realize that her Dad is not the highest form of intelligence in existence. In fact, I’d call that a no-brainer. So get ready, get set, and go start thinking of something better than what you’re telling me when she starts asking you about this and that, and why things are the way they are.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 18 2005, 01:30 PM

Disagree about what? Do you honestly disagree with everything I’ve said?

For the record, I testify that God does not want any of us to engage in homosexual activity because it doesn’t and won’t do us any good.

If you disagree with what I have just said, that is your right and I will live despite what you believe. In fact, I’ll even die to protect your right to believe whatever you choose to believe, as long as your beliefs allow other people to believe what they choose to believe.

Beliefs and Actions are different, though, and I’ll do what I can to see that criminals are brought to justice, whether their acts are for good or evil.

Btw, I now intend this to be my last post for a while. I now see that I do have OCD, and I am striving to be temperate in all things.

Whooooooaaaaaa... settle down there! You've lost me. What's this about criminals and their actions, and dying... or whatever. Did I miss another important post or something?

I can safely say that I disagree with 80% of what you say.

[sgallan]

**** The main idea behind most religions is a belief that there is an ultimate form and source of intelligence in the universe, with the highest form of intelligence being referred to as God.****

You don't say?

**** And while you might be pretty smart, ****

I am pretty smart.

*** and pretty nice,****

I have my moments but this one is debatable.

*** and able to do a lot of pretty good things for your daughter, I’m sure she will someday realize that her Dad is not the highest form of intelligence in existence. *****

LOL..... she already knows this. A lot of the stuff we learn, we learn together. I am learning geometry again. I like it this time and she is picking it up pretty well (she is a grade ahead in math). She's seen me get my butt kicked on a wrestling mat as well. Nothing quite so humbling as that.

*** In fact, I’d call that a no-brainer.****

Me too.

*** So get ready, get set, and go start thinking of something better than what you’re telling me when she starts asking you about this and that, and why things are the way they are. ****

See you miss the big picture. I am her daddy, for the time being her mommy (and I'm not that good at this one), her teacher, and her coach. It doesn't work like..... "Dad why is this like that?" And I say, "there is no god". It is more of a continual, day to day, week to week, year to year, process of raising a child. And we do it all. From the school (cyberschooled at home), to fitness and sports (she is a prodigy), to a good diet, to what can be watched on TV, to our hobbies (we have recently added rock climbing to our reportoire - she is better than me). No game boy kid here. Sure she will develop a mind of her own. Sure she will develop her own views. Already has. But generally speaking children take up the beliefs of their parents if those parents teach and guide in a loving, firm, rational way. If this wasn't the case there would be a lot more athiests and agnostics given thiest parents are the majority.

[sgallan]

**** The belief that people should seek to know what is right and what is wrong from “the highest possible intelligent source of information” is immoral?****

Well given you have set yourself up as god spokesperson, what with your ability to speak for him and all, and if you have it exactly right, as you seem so sure that you do, then yes..... I do.

*** I’ve told you several times that you don’t have to believe in the God that I believe in, but you should at least try to find out about God to know what God thinks, don’t you think? ****

Why?

*** To think that you have all the wisdom you can possibly attain is to think that You are God, ****

Oddly enough, you tend to come off this way as well. I could swear by the way you preach on this board you are utterly certain you are gods spokesperson and would - if you could - rid this world of vermin who do not believe exactly as you do. Seriously, this is how I read you.

**** and from what I know about You, I wouldn’t care to spend eternity with You either. *****

Ah yes, but I added in your posited god as well. You I could avoid. That god would be in charge. Yuk.

[Ray]

….generally speaking children take up the beliefs of their parents if those parents teach and guide in a loving, firm, rational way.

That’s part of the reason why it is the parent’s fault for not teaching their children about God and how they can get to know Him. But still, most children will someday start seeking God on their own once they realize there must be a higher form of intelligence in the universe than what can be found on this planet. And if she already knows that you aren’t the most intelligent person on this planet, she will eventually start seeking knowledge about God from other people that she will consider to be smarter than you are.