Convert Question

[blusun7]

I have a question, im not one to throw my business out but i feel as im not doing so because there are so many great people on this board young and not so young :)

I have a girlfriend and dating for almost 3 years.

Well lately she wants to marry and i ask her what does the bible say about marriage,as she things the BOM is man made and has plagurism you know the whole works,

I felt the need and told her that i do not want to be married till death do us part. Then i refer her to scripture which talked about men asking about marriage and what happens when you die.Whos wife is she?Then Christ tells them that they do er, and all become angels in heaven. I told her that proper authority must be used to united two people in marriage, then i refer her to the scripture that says"what thou seal on earth is sealed in heaven"you know the scripture.(matthew 16:19)Proper priesthood authority.

So basically i told that we believe in the primitive church. The church that was in the bible is now back on earth and Christ is the head of our church.Joseph Smith restored it because god chose him. I refer her to Amos 3:5 i believe.

Make a long story short she has read the anti mormon stuff and is goes with it. She uses it as an excuse not to look into the church.She ll go to church but other than that she wont take lesson because she says it feels wrong.Her family is baptist and her dad thinks he knows more since he got a degree in christianity and she trust his word over Christ words.

For all you converts how did you all get passed anti mormon stuff?Joseph Smith is fake stuff?I did pray but didnt feel anything trial?

How can i get through to a mind that refuses to at least listen or look for herself. She is a great person,but this area she cuts off. She has read to much junk and has not read Christ words herself.

This one subject is really tearing at our relationship and its starting to throw the red alert,maybe go our seperate ways,but thats hard for me cause i do love her but am realizing that if things dont change i ll have to what i need to do for me.i know relationships are a part of life and sometimes people just wont change and people grow then move on till they find someone. i just have to get through this. If not then i know she has to go,but how did you overcome. Share your stories.

Edited March 23, 2009 by blusun7
tmi

[beefche]

How can i get through to a mind that refuses to at least listen or look for herself. She is a great person,but this area she cuts off. She has read to much junk and has not read Christ words herself.

This one subject is really tearing at our relationship and its starting to throw the red alert,maybe go our seperate ways,but thats hard for me cause i do love her and feel satan has her.i just have to get through to her. If not then i know she has to go,but how did you overcome. Share your stories.

First, YOU can not change her mind or get through to her. All you can do is guide her when/where she is willing to go. The Spirit is the one who does the convincing.

Second, because she doesn't see things your way and in fact, believes that you are on the wrong path doesn't mean Satan has her. No one can know where anyone else is on the path to perfection.

Advice? Well, only you can choose. But, if temple marriage is important to you and she has no interest, then you have to choose--temple marriage or her. There is no guarantee with either choice--temple marriage doesn't equate to perfect happiness and choosing her doesn't mean one day she may choose the church.

Basically, you need to decide what your priorities are and then make goals based on those. Your life and anything in your life will fall into place--whether with you or not.

[Guest Godless]

I second everything beefy-mod said. There's only so much you can do to try to change her perspective. If she doesn't change, then you'll have to accept that and decide whether or not you still want to pursue a committed relationship with her.

As for the anti- stuff, it's important to note that the people who circulate that garbage are incredibly biased and have an agenda. They hate the LDS Church and want to discredit it. Many of them are apostates who still harbor bad feelings towards the Church, claiming that they were brainwashed and suffocated by the Church and its doctrine. While these feelings are understandable (I'm an apostate myself), it's wrong of them to try to use their bad experiences to discredit the entire Church. People should be able to make their own decisions about the Church without being misguided by slander.

If you haven't already, try to talk your girlfriend into letting the missionaries give her some of the lessons. This will give her the opportunity to get a more balanced perspective. She may still decide not to join the Church, but at least she'll have both sides of the issue. It's never a good idea to base decisions on one side of the issue, regardless of what the issue at hand is. Objectivity is key, and biased opinions kill objectivity. Naturally, the missionaries have their own biases, as do you. Everyone does. The way we learn is by looking past our biases and considering alternative viewpoints. We may not agree with the alternative viewpoints, but that doesn't mean that they aren't worth considering in the interest of fairness.

[blusun7]

yea i was just wondering if there were any good stories of conversion. i know i must choose but i love her so.Temple marriage is important to me.

[jolee65]

Your in a tuff spot and do you believe that this just happened at this time for no reason, he still has planns for you even if you went off your path, and your in a life planning situation whens the best time for a growing experience , lol when you have all this life planning going on this is part of choosing your path she isnt perseptive , you want her to be but you dont have the power of directing her like the spirit , he is your only way all you can do is continue to pray for his guildance, and be an example of a good LDS member. If she agrees to go to church take her , continue to pray for guildance but ask her to agree not to read any of the anti mormon material and to respect your religion as you would do for her and whats important to her in her life.

[Islander]

I have a question, im not one to throw my business out but i feel as im not doing so because there are so many great people on this board young and not so young :)

I have a girlfriend and dating for almost 3 years.

Recently ive been working on repentance cause me and here did some stuff,but the point here is i have no desire to do things until i marry in the temple..

I feel for you. You have walked into a sand pit with your own two feet. Your history with her is now your own worst enemy as you did not live the Gospel and did not model that life to her. You should have no expectation that she would change regardless of how many stories of conversion you read to her. In fact, you more or less deceived her for you are now claiming that you are not who she thought you were. Now you have changed and she does not want to and you should not force her.

I can appreciate your feelings for her but now you have to decide if you follow your feelings or your love for the things of God and the truth. In order to obtain what you now seek; the priesthood and the temple, YOU have to decide what to do with your life. She may or may not embrace the Gospel on her own. And if you try and force the issue you will be making a bed of thorns, adorned with flowers, to lay on which may prove quite painful and unbearable in the future.

[Guest Alana]

My sister in law is always reading anti Mormon crude. When she was alive my grandmother also would read it, and then ask me questions when I was a young teenager. The best thing I could do for both of them was not to engage them in battle, bare my testimony about that particular subject (not why I believe necessarily, but that I did) and then continue choosing the right. When it comes down to it, you need to respect her agency. Do everything you can to show her what you believe and live it. Pray for her, pray for yourself to stay on the right path. Sadly, if she does continue down the current path, it's going to be be HARD for you. Fast for her. Have the missionaries over, not for a discusion, but just for dinner. They can leave you with a spiritual thought and have that be that. Invite her to church activities. But when it comes down to it, the choice is hers.

[marshac]

Blu- That's a pretty rough situation, and it sounds like you're outgunned until she decides to investigate her own beliefs rather than simply accept whatever her father says. Having said that, you should encourage her in that direction- to explore what she believes.

When I had made up my mind about the church, I then had to sell my wife on the idea too- and we had a similar conversation- what did she believe? To my amazement....shock.... whatever.... she stated that she really wasn't sure if she even believed in God anymore. Unfortunately, this made things more difficult than I had anticipated, and all I could really do was share with her what I believed and why I believed it (in terms of there being a God). The next night we talked about Jesus- this was easy. The next part- the LDS part- was a bit tricky. First I talked about what the church was not (to proactively deal with any misconceptions, etc)... and from there began again to talk about what she believed. I asked her where she came from, where she was going when she died, where others would go when they died ('others' as in non-believers, etc), etc. From this point it was easy to fit her own beliefs into the framework of LDS doctrine.....there was one moment where she was like "no way, they believe that?" not because what I said was so unbelievable, but because she was able to immediately identify with it (preexistence) as it was something she had believed ever since she was little.

Having said all that, as a small few of you know, we're getting baptized tomorrow.... did I "convert" her? No. All I did was provide her with information and listened to what she said- it was her willingness to explore with me what she personally believed that made it all possible. So there you have it- don't pound it into her- put it into a context that she can understand and relate to..... and if she's not willing to listen to it and think about it in context of her own beliefs, then don't keep hammering her with it. Give her time- be a good example to her in the interim- in time she may be ready to listen, and hopefully you'll be there to talk.

[Faded]

First your girl needs to read equally reliable sources. Might I recommend the following:

My apologies if she is ALREADY an avid reader of the Weekly World News. The thing she needs to somehow realize is that she's reading the tabloids about us. For all she knows, we worship Bat Boy!

The question for her is, why is she willing to take everyone's opinion of what we believe in other than our own opinion? Why is she willing to take only opinions that cast all things LDS in a bad light, and conveniently ignore anything that makes us look good? It's because she and her father have a vested interest in believing the tabloid Mormon press.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Faded

[Faded]

Okay, so being more serious.

Anti-Mormon media all has the same weaknesses:

1.) They lie.

2.) They are hypocritical -- Every anti-Mormon statement, theory, etc, all has the same thing in common. The Bible and every other Christian religion would not be able to withstand the same types of questions being directed at them.

I will say that you're up against a lot there. Nothing against Baptists, but for some reason, a very large number of them seem to have a tremendous dislike for the Church of Jesus Christ.

As for the accusation that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from the Bible. Consider that the Jews have made the same accusation of the New Testament being plagiarized from the Old Testament.

If you want the answers to each silly accusation, we could do that ... but there's never going to be an end to them. Your girlfriend has to wake up and I certainly hope that happens. But if you want the answers to each item, point by point, we could do that too.

[marshac]

Faded- I wish the laugh button were here...

[blusun7]

great points.. keep em coming.

We had a discussion about her being bias toward the negativity. She wont give me a chance but the preacher is some kind of hero or that his wisdom is better. Im taking it one step at a time but she wants to get baptized. This is why i think..

She has never been baptized in a church. She tells me all the time faith in christ is all you need and she is saved.For quiet a while and it leads to typical argument. So i go to her church in the morning this past week,mine started at 1pm. So im listening to the pastor and out of nowhere they use big words and raise there voice then all the sudden he says"you dont have be baptized to go to heaven". I looked at her and i was determined to find the verse. So later on i tell her that it bothered me what her pastor said. She thinks every word is to convert her but i tell her"your pastor is wrong about not being baptized" she tells me no and i said"is your pastor words greater than Jesus's words" she says no and i say listen to this scripture in the bible.

I then quoted john3:5.I told her pastor had no right to says such thing when the our lord and savior instructs what to do.

Couple days later she wants to be baptized. Into the church that says you dont have too and im the one teaching her things in the bible. It gets frustrating but im letting the lord help be patient or basically letting me get through this if we are together or not.

I just dont understand. polygamy is another thing

She says that Joseph Smith is basically a man whore. Any one got some good advice on that subject. Ive tryed but i think i need more info on it to teach some one who doesnt know about it. I told that she is eating meat before learning to drink milk.(Anyone know what verse that is in the scriptures about eating meat before drinking milk. Jesus talking about gospel ordinances.)

[Guest missingsomething]

I have some stories for you blu.

Positive first?

1) A missionary couple recently served in my area. Her parents were married, outside of the church, even though her family were life-long members. Her mother had sincerely prayed and knew she should marry this man...that he would eventually convert. So she sat back, did what she was supposed to do and waited... and waited... and waited. Her children grew, served missions, and go married without the presence of their father in the temple. And she waited. Finally, after 35 years of marriage, he converted when finally a missionary said something that hit a cord. "Is it worth the risk that you might be right about all families being together forever... is your family worth that gamble to you." He finally had a reason to honestly seek the answer in prayer and was FINALLY ready to listen to the answer. He converted and was sealed to his family a few months before he died. THe lady did not get to enjoy the blessings of the priesthood in her family or her marriage, but her faithfulness was rewarded by having her family sealed -in the nick of time.

This is not the common thing though. Ezra T. Benson was quoted in a lesson I had in YW (and I did look for the reference,but that was 15 years ago so I couldnt find it...sorry) Warning to not marry with the hope of converting your spouse. It is a hard life.

The not so positive

My bishop flat out told me not to marry my husband, as he was a non-member. Despite knowing that quote up above and still not listening... I married him anyways. He was very nearly close to an anti-mormon at the time... and I dont think he believed in God...at least not the way we do. He has improved greatly over the last 8 years. He even goes to sacrament with me, because we have two young girls and so he goes to occupy them so that I can listen. He will hang out with my church -couple friends - though he severely does not fit in. But as for teaching my girls, praying, reading the scriptures, family home evening, having the priesthood for blessings, having the blessings of a temple marriage, having a feeling of peace and calm in the home - even being able to decorate "like a mormon"... we have none of those.

I would advise you to make a list of the qualities that you want in a woman. Gotta haves, should haves, Can not haves.... and list the qualities both temporally and spiritually. Then compare your girlfriend. I think at this juncture, you already know it isnt going to last, you are just yearning for someone to tell you this - to tell you its ok to let go... even if you dont know that yet.

DO NOT SETTLE when the LORD has a faithful servant prepared for you - but seek the answer through prayer... but be willing to accept the answer.

(I AM SO long winded! Can you tell I like to write?... sorry for the novel--- Good Grief!)

[Faded]

The first step is really quite simple: Was Joseph Smith a prophet? You can't TRULY jump the big hurdles without answering that question. You can address them bit by bit, but you can't convince her that polygamy was commanded of God.

Has she read from the Book of Mormon and prayed about it? Has she actually given it a chance to be true or is she so blinded by her own preconceived bigotry against our beliefs? Anti-Mormons have been trying to talk their way around the Book of Mormon ever since it was published. The circumstances of how quickly it was produced and a lot of the details related to it's translation are very very interesting. For instance, it was commonplace for them to take a long break from the translation process. Whenever they were ready to begin again, even after hours or days, Joseph could start exactly where he left off without help. The experience of Martin Harris, when he took some of the characters with their corresponding translation to Professor Anton. Anton was amazed at the autheticity and the correctness of the translation ... until he realized that it would ruin him and he destroyed the certification he had given to Martin Harris. Joseph Smith was not an educated man either, yet he would have to have spent YEARS working on adapting the Book of Mormon text from the Bible, and he still wouldn't have come up what he did. The Book of Mormon is the key to conversion. It always has been and always will be. If it is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet. If it is not the he was not. It's really that simple.

In this dispensation, the very first person to have major objections to polygamy is a bit surprising. The first one was none other than Joseph Smith. The principal was revealed to him because he was earnestly inquiring of the Lord while translating the Bible but he did not make the revelation he received in response to his inquiry public for many years (probably about 11 years). The idea bothered him a great deal and I think he put it off just as long as he could.

Doctrine and Covenants 132: 1-3

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

What was his question? "Lord, how could you excuse these men in such an immoral practice? How can this be right?"

The answer was, "I'll explain it to you by having you live it." And Joseph Smith spent the next 11 years or so not instituting the practice. I think it bothered him a great deal.

The two next most famous practicers of polygamy were Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball. Both of them had an equally terrible time accepting the doctrine. I don't have time to go into those stories right at the moment. I'll see if I can dig them up later.

I would be curious to know if she believes that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, David and Solomon were also "man-whores."

And these were not the uncommon exceptions. Look up Levirite Marriage. Basically, if there were two brothers, each with a wife, and one of the brothers dies, then it was the duty of the surviving brother to marry her and raise up seed unto Israel on behalf of his brother.

Deuteronomy 25:5-10

[5] If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

[6] And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

[7] And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.

[8] Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;

[9] Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.

[10] And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

Polygamy was commanded in such circumstances, but the Lord was willing to let the man out of it. All he had to do go through spectacle of public humiliation, have the elders of the city all spit in his face and carry his disgrace for the rest of his life. Levirite marriage is exactly what is being spoken of in Matthew 22:24-30 (an incomplete scriptural passage if ever there was one.)

The point is simple. There are numerous instances where the Lord specifically commanded his people to live polygamy throughout the Bible. Abraham was not asked, he was commanded. So it was with the rest of the cases. And the Bible never specifically forbids polygamy. At best, it references things like, "A bishop shall be the husband of one wife." Not exactly all-encompassing nor applicable to all. So if your girlfriend believes in the whole Bible, then accepting polygamy as something God commanded is elementary.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Faded

[Faded]

Bear in mind, the sermon on Polygamy is not the best answer, but it should give you enough information to be able to at least sound competent on the topic.

The summarized law of polygamy would be as follows, and there is nothing even similar to it in the Bible.

Jacob 2:27-31

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

[jolee65]

LOL,.its funny I have heard people say things about JS and polygramy that have slept there way through the city of jackson,........lol

Not saying your GF has but you get what im saying.

At some point I would have to walk away and hope for the best for her in her faith.

[Maya]

My motehre made me read the worst anti book in my language. It made me sick, but I knew it was wrong. Read the book by Darrick T. Evenson: The gaynsayers. It is pretty good on teh subjects that bother her. You can also go listen to : YouTube - TheBackyardProfessor's Channel or FAIR: YouTube - fairldsorg's Channel Click on any of these .. the name so you can see all teh videoes and waht the videoes in that playlist are about.....

A protestant that become a mormon:

se them all

How about this: YouTube - An Unlikely Mormon - Glenn Beck Conversion to Mormonism 1/7 See them all.

You can also pm me if you have a special question you dont know what to say.. not that I would be an apologist... but I hope I could help a bit. Unfortunately a person that HAS decided not to believe it is impossible to get her to listen before she is willing. Just make sure she dont dragg you down with her! My mothers father was a priest and even a teafcher of the priests so she could not think of betraying her dad and be a member... anyway you are young. Think of the kids... it will be fight later IF she wont listen to you or if you dont lower your standards to hers. Is she worth it? Worth that your kids will be .. babtists... and you will not be married for ever?

[Maya]

VERY many new archeologigal founds show athat Judish people did not worship only Elohim top begin with but him and his wife.... but this is ofcourse too much meet to someone who should just have milk.

[marshac]

Honestly, the whole "milk before meat" mantra would have backfired horribly on me if it were attempted. The problem is that a person might know some things (or think they know) that simply can't be addressed by the 'milk' component of the diet. Sure, the quick response is to 'pray about it', but the heart can only last so long when the head is working in flat out in opposition to it. For me, I wanted to know about masonry in the temple and all the other hairy things that my or may not exist- things that mormons rarely talk about, but others with an agenda bring up all the time. Unfortunately this girl has already been fed some of these facts, but in such a way as to render them unpalatable. I know a few people whom I highly respect on here dislike the mormon stories podcasts, but for me they were instrumental in addressing some of my concerns and allowing me to join in the first place. You might take a few minutes and locate one or two of the podcasts that deal with what are currently her biggest concerns and listen to them.... if you can swing it, you might listen to one together (after you have heard it first) and then discuss it after it's done.

[Faded]

Honestly, the whole "milk before meat" mantra would have backfired horribly on me if it were attempted. The problem is that a person might know some things (or think they know) that simply can't be addressed by the 'milk' component of the diet. Sure, the quick response is to 'pray about it', but the heart can only last so long when the head is working in flat out in opposition to it. For me, I wanted to know about masonry in the temple and all the other hairy things that my or may not exist- things that mormons rarely talk about, but others with an agenda bring up all the time. Unfortunately this girl has already been fed some of these facts, but in such a way as to render them unpalatable. I know a few people whom I highly respect on here dislike the mormon stories podcasts, but for me they were instrumental in addressing some of my concerns and allowing me to join in the first place. You might take a few minutes and locate one or two of the podcasts that deal with what are currently her biggest concerns and listen to them.... if you can swing it, you might listen to one together (after you have heard it first) and then discuss it after it's done.

And this is exactly why it is critical that I think it best that blusun7 be armed with the strongest explanations possible. I've not seen/heard the podcasts that you're referring to, where would a person look for them?

Anyways, the key is that once you are done establishing the LDS doctrinal case for this and many other things -- you need to tie refer EVERYTHING back to two questions:

1.) Is the Book of Mormon the true word of God?

2.) Is Joseph Smith a prophet?

The point is, you CAN answer the questions about polygamy or any other difficult doctrine, but ultimately the underlying questions must always be, "Did God command it? Did God reveal it? Did God do it?" You can argue till doomsday and beyond about the motivations, beliefs, understandings and scriptural interpretations of imperfect humans. But if it came from God, one must either accept it or reject God altogether.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Faded

[Maya]

marsac. Sure if someone already is affected by antistuff, you cant start in that case with milk, but you dont need to come out with mesing blowing about the anti stuff right away, that may become a problem. It is true that many who are given only the misionary milk, may later face real problems, when they hear what all "we actually believe". But so does anyone; a born member as well as a new one or an investigator.

Not many knows about all the weird accusitions and where they came from and what they mean or how to answer. Even someone who has eaten meat all their life can be doubtfull any time. The only thing that keeps you on the stright way is that you believe/know Jesus was the son of God and that he suffered for us adn that this is His Church.

Many dont even have any answers in their own language! For sooo many to pray and to read scriptures or close our ears is the only way to stay on teh roaed. Here even my miserable try to get the apologetic truth heard in my language meets the wall of resistance who thinks we should just wave with a hand to all antistuff.

For many it is a question what they believe the group calleed mormons are. If they really can think that those they know as mormons would believe in something like what is said or not. Or do what is said, like the blood atonement.

Those links give a lot of light, but there are stil questions unaswered... one has to have patience to wait for the answer. Dont use a sledgehammer if a hammer is enough!

[blusun7]

i appreciate everyones input. It is great. I never saw the deuteronomy verse before. awesome find

I tell you what i do love this girl and im being patient. believe i wont marry until in the temple but im trying to just let her know that her perception is incorrect. Yes you cant make her think like me but i take this as a learning experience. I just know in my heart that there is one missionary or member that needs to just say something that will strike her with the spirit.

Like today i went to her church even though i said i wouldn't then we would go to singles ward after that. Well after church the parents wanted to eat...ugh there goes obeying the sabbath day... but the father had a meeting and it was getting later. Church started an hour later but i wanted her to go to class so we opted for our sunday school classes. Every thing seemed like it was taking longer than it should and i really felt that satan was at work. I almost decided to say lets just go home because sunday school was gonna start but i said lets go even if we are late.

I knew that by disobeying the sabbath day things would take a turn and it did.

I know that this gospel is true and that jesus is our savior. Joseph Smith was a prophet and chosen to do the lords work.

Your right, if you believe that Smith was a prophet then everything else falls into place. I should of thought of that. Ohh well thats what you all are for.

Lets see what happens this week.

I really do appreciate everyones input. Im gonna watch that video.

Did Joseph Smith have a personal diary or something that shows how hard it was to accept polygamy?

[lilered]

blusun7 -

My counsel would be:

First get your own house in order, go to your Bishop and follow his counsel to get back on the straight and narrow path. Pray often, daily read the scriptures, pay tithing, etc.

Second: Fast and Pray for help and guidance with your problem

Third: Be a good example to this girl so that she can better understand the changing affect that the Holy Spirit has on one who is willing to repent and obey the commandments.

Fourth: Bear your testimony as often as possible. This means also in your own wards Testimony, let her hear it .

Fifth: Have a little patience and give the Holy Spirit time to work.

Sixth. Kneel with her and show her how to pray, and let her observe that you are humbling yourself before the Lord, and seeking his help in all that you do.

Seventh: Point out t and then let her observe at Church and gatherings the importance of the Family Unit to the Plan of Salvation.

Eighth: Invite the missionaries to join you both for lunch. Which gives her a chance to mingle with them without fear.

Ninth: Eventually a seed will be planted and the Holy Spirit will help it grow.

[Maya]

The first part of JS diary has just come out. But about plural marriage... it is quite funny that some people take it so seriosly. It si not practiced today. I just wonder if a person who really KNOWS that this church is true... would he/she leave the church because of plural marriage... I doubt it. I cant see people telling direct to God that sorry, you have plural marriage I dont want to be with you... Then again if it was wrong... then there are a LOT of people from old days that are equally wrong like Abraham, Isac, David.... I find it kind of funny that the Lord was telling David how wrong he did with Uriahs wife but said nothing of his other many wifes of beeing wrong!

There are also may old histories about God Himself beeing plurally married. Ofcourse these can be said to be just tales alike it that Adam had more than one wife in the Garden of Eden but only one tok the fruit and ate! (Jewish history)

Anyway what do we know about eternity... maybe more than one wife is a nessesity to be able to function there! (poor guys:D)

[Faded]

Did Joseph Smith have a personal diary or something that shows how hard it was to accept polygamy?

Here's what we know. It is clear from thorough study of Church History that Joseph Smith knew about the principal of plural marriage as early as 1831. He did not begin to institute the practice until 1842, which was 11 years later. Now Joseph Smith always tended to understate things as they related to him, so I wouldn't expect to find a statement from him about this. But we start with 11 years of ... procrastination shall we say. Now couple that with the experience that motivated him to finally begin to institute the practice, and I think we can correctly infer that Joseph Smith was the most reluctant of polygamists.

LDS Mormon Joseph Smith Angel Sword Vision Polygamy

"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259

"When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine."

- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29

"Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him."

- Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903

"I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him."

- Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and Manuscripts

"His brother, Hyrum, said to me, "Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law."

Okay so what we have here is multiple accounts of the same experience. Joseph Smith put the whole thing off until he was threatened with immediate destruction and damnation by an angel of the Lord. I think we can take 11 years delay together with needing to be threatened with death and destruction by an angel of God to be adequate evidence of Joseph Smith's reluctance. The reason I quoted many sources is because I want to make it clear that this experience with the angel was not something Joseph Smith fabricated later on to cover his tracks. It was something that many members were told of, immediately upon the outset of the institution of plural marriage. This is the only instance I can recall where Joseph Smith was this reluctant to obey a command from the Lord. If we piece together the obvious, that adds up to Joseph Smith being anything but a "man-whore" or any other such thing.

But of course, this does not prove Joseph was a prophet of God. To the unbelieving, this is probably all just very quaint storytelling to make excuses, etc. So as always, the key is knowing for certain that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.

It is also very important to emphasize that we have not practiced plural marriage of any kind since bout 1890 -- 119 years ago. So while you can explain the circumstances of it all, it's really much ado about ancient history. If we were less charitable than we are, we might bring up a lot of things about the teachings of other religions from that same time period. For instance, the entire Southern Baptist Church, together with virtually every other Christian denomination in the Southern States, actively preached that blacks were slaves because God commanded it to be so, and that it was against God's will that they should be otherwise. Everyone has their history of questionable teachings, yet it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that has theirs put under a microscope and picked apart. I find that fact very interesting indeed.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Faded