Assisted suicide

[bytor2112]

This story is just bizarre:

The founder of the Swiss assisted-suicide clinic Dignitas revealed plans Thursday to help a healthy wife die alongside her terminally ill husband.

Ludwig Minelli described suicide as a “marvellous opportunity” that should not be restricted to the terminally ill or people with severe disabilities.

The Dignitas clinic, based in a Zurich apartment, claims to have already assisted in the suicides of more than 100 British people.

Minelli said that anyone who has “mental capacity” should be allowed to have an assisted suicide, claiming that it would save money for the National Health Service.

He said that he expected to go to the Swiss courts to seek a ruling in the controversial case of a Canadian couple who have asked to die together.

“The husband is ill, his partner is not ill but she told us here in my living room that, ’If my husband goes, I would go at the same time with him’,” he said.

Minelli, a human rights lawyer, tells The Report on BBC Radio 4 Thursday that the British had an “obsession” with the requirement to be terminally ill.

“It is not a condition to have a terminal illness,” he said. “Terminal illness is a British obsession. As a human rights lawyer I am opposed to the idea of paternalism. We do not make decisions for other people.

“We should have a nicer attitude to suicide, saying suicide is a very good possibility to escape."

[Maxel]

So, suicide is a human right?

*Puts this on his 'Signs of the times' list*

All semi-joking aside- this makes me sick. Suicide is a serious issue, and anyone offering 'assisted suicides' is little more than a murderer. I'm not surprised this Minelli is masquerading this as a human rights issue. It seems nowadays you can make any deviance or evil popular or accepted if you label it a 'right'.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Maxel

[lestertheemt]

All I can say is WOW!!

I always have believed that life is precious and should be protected.

[Islander]

The elderly are next. The feeble and infirm. Later the developmentally disabled children (which is already practiced in some quarters). Ethnic cleansing has a myriad of forms.

[Maxel]

The elderly are next. The feeble and infirm. Later the developmentally disabled children (which is already practiced in some quarters). Ethnic cleansing has a myriad of forms.

I was so shocked by the mere fact that this existed that I didn't think of where it could lead. You're right, I fear: if this idea is ever popularized or accepted, the next phase will be to 'weed out' the 'inferior' human specimens.

[LittleWyvern]

The elderly are next. The feeble and infirm. Later the developmentally disabled children (which is already practiced in some quarters). Ethnic cleansing has a myriad of forms.

I don't think so. The terminally ill husband's wife is going through with this procedure because she wants to, she requested it, and is doing it of her own free will. There's a Grand Canyon worth of a logical leap until we get to people deciding when somebody else will die.

In any case, I don't see the merits of trying to stop something like this. If a person wants to commit suicide and are kept from doing so in a doctors office, they'll just do it at home. I don't see the merits of one over the other (except, perhaps, cleanliness. They're both expensive eventually).

[Maxel]

I don't think so. The terminally ill husband's wife is going through with this procedure because she wants to, she requested it, and is doing it of her own free will. There's a Grand Canyon worth of a logical leap until we get to people deciding when somebody else will die.

Yet humans make those huge logical leaps all the time because they don't understand the actual reality of things. Suicide is a serious issue, and the moment it becomes socially acceptable as an escape, the next step is forcing it on others. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but look at the state of homosexuality in various nations. When one generation just wants to be accepted and not persecuted, the next one wants to force others to accept their definition of sexuality and marriage through legal means. A decline in righteousness- in any area- always leads to a moral decline in all areas.

In any case, I don't see the merits of trying to stop something like this. If a person wants to commit suicide and are kept from doing so in a doctors office, they'll just do it at home. I don't see the merits of one over the other (except, perhaps, cleanliness. They're both expensive eventually).

Bad things happen and people kill themselves- that doesn't mean there should be businesses assisting said bad things. That's like saying "Person A is going to use heroine anyway, so we should legalize the distribution of it".

Oh wait.. people are saying that. Try this: "Person A is going to kill person B anyway, so we should legalize the murder and hand person A a gun". The only difference here is that person A and B are the same person.

Suicide is a serious sin that affects more than just the person committing the act.

[Dravin]

[LittleWyvern]

Yet humans make those huge logical leaps all the time because they don't understand the actual reality of things. Suicide is a serious issue, and the moment it becomes socially acceptable as an escape, the next step is forcing it on others. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but look at the state of homosexuality in various nations. When one generation just wants to be accepted and not persecuted, the next one wants to force others to accept their definition of sexuality and marriage through legal means. A decline in righteousness- in any area- always leads to a moral decline in all areas.

I have yet to be convinced that this is a slippery slope, since I don't think suicide and homosexuality are related in their mechanism (and I disagree that homosexuality forces other people to do anything, but that's another thread). Maybe I just don't understand the connection?

Bad things happen and people kill themselves- that doesn't mean there should be businesses assisting said bad things. That's like saying "Person A is going to use heroine anyway, so we should legalize the distribution of it".

Oh wait.. people are saying that. Try this: "Person A is going to kill person B anyway, so we should legalize the murder and hand person A a gun". The only difference here is that person A and B are the same person.

Suicide is a serious sin that affects more than just the person committing the act.

I don't see how these examples relate. Heroin is illegal. Murder is illegal. Suicide is not. That's the key. If suicide was illegal then I'd be all for keeping anybody from assisting in it. Since this is mostly a legal issue, whether suicide is a sin or not in a certain religion is irrelevant.

Edited April 3, 2009 by LittleWyvern
quote fail!~

[Maxel]

I have yet to be convinced that this is a slippery slope, since I don't think suicide and homosexuality are related in their mechanism (and I disagree that homosexuality forces other people to do anything, but that's another thread). Maybe I just don't understand the connection?

All righteous acts lead to the same end. Similarly, all wicked acts lead to the same end. As for the existence of the slippery slope, I suggest you look into the recent history of Sweden and its treatment of marriage. The previous generations pushed for the legalization of homosexuality, then homosexual marriage. Now the battle is over legalized polygamy. A slippery slope exists there, and they actually exist many places. The only reason the slippery slope is a logical fallacy is that the cause of the slippery slope- righteousness and wickedness- is beyond the explanation of mortal logic. I think it's safe to say that the slippery slope would also exist in the case of assisted suicide. How long it would take, I don't know, but the logic points in that direction (i.e., the moment human life is viewed as a commodity to be given up legally, all it takes is unhealthy government intervention to make the jump to some people being forced to give that commodity up).

BTW, the mentioning of homosexuality being forced on others: the act wasn't forced on others, but the acceptance of it- and being forced to recognize it as a partnership equal to heterosexuality- is forced on others. And for the record, I'm not claiming that homosexual acts and suicide are related other than being immoral.

I don't see how these examples relate. Heroin is illegal. Murder is illegal. Suicide is not. That's the key. If suicide was illegal then I'd be all for keeping anybody from assisting in it. Since this is mostly a legal issue, whether suicide is a sin or not in a certain religion is irrelevant.

I look at this as a moral issue, not just a legal one. If we are to believe that an act's legality is the deciding factor in its impact on society, then we are to be blown about by the winds of false doctrine. Legalizing and/or the acceptance of such a gross sin as suicide and assisted suicide is harmful to society, and is as much a symptom of degeneracy as it is a cause of grief.

I also fail to see how this is mainly a legal issue. Sure, Minelli is couching his argument in legal terms (nowadays, what's more political and legal than human rights?) but that's not the real issue at hand. The face of legality is a red herring to draw attention from the elephant in the room: the moral implications of assisted suicide. Even though this article covers a little bit of the legal happenings of Minelli's work, the real impact is not its legality.

By the way, I was under the impression that suicide is illegal in most countries? I have no backing for that though; I may be completely wrong.

[LittleWyvern]

Maxel, I think we're getting off track. I completely agree with you doctrinally: I believe homosexuality is a sin, I believe suicide is a sin, etc, etc, but these beliefs won't stand up in a court of law, where the legality of doctor assisted suicide will ultimately be decided sooner or later. I'm not a lawyer, but I suppose one would need to prove at-home suicide better for society than doctor-assisted suicide for starters.

And I still don't think doctor-assisted suicide makes human life a commodity more than at-home suicide does. Currently, doctor-assisted suicide is a very thought out and serious choice, that necessarily must be done of free will. It would take a completely totalitarian government to force this decision upon others (murder would have to be decriminalized, for starters: forcing somebody to give up their own life amounts to murder in my opinion.

And as for the criminality of suicide, suicide is one of those things that's almost impossible to prosecute. If it were illegal, common law would probably demand that the punishment be answered upon the heads of the children, but I don't know of any country that does that. This Wikipedia article gives some legal info: it appears that in most countries, suicide itself is not a crime, but attempting suicide or trying to get somebody to commit suicide against their will is.

[Guest JHM-in-Bountiful]

I've been exposed to the idea of assisted suicide for many years now. In the early 1990's there was a book on the issue that was #1 on the New York times best seller list. I will not mention the name of the book. On a lighter side, there was a cartoon (drawing) about the book. A person in a library was checking out the book. The librarian asked the person if they would be returning the book. Aparently, she thought the person was going to die and not have the book returned. lol.

[Maxel]

Maxel, I think we're getting off track. I completely agree with you doctrinally: I believe homosexuality is a sin, I believe suicide is a sin, etc, etc, but these beliefs won't stand up in a court of law, where the legality of doctor assisted suicide will ultimately be decided sooner or later.

I thought we were talking about the way things really are and not necessarily how they will be received in the court of law. I agree though: I got us a little off track with the mention of homosexuality. My apologies. However, the point still stands: it is a slippery slope, there are examples of it extant today.

I'm not a lawyer, but I suppose one would need to prove at-home suicide better for society than doctor-assisted suicide for starters.

I think this is the wrong approach to the situation. Ultimately, the result is damned if you do, damned if you don't: both are abhorrent. It doesn't matter whether it's better to needlessly cut off a foot or a finger; to kill someone with a gun or a rusty spork- the real question is whether it is right or not. To me, your example is like getting a lawyer to determine whether extramarital sex with condoms or extramarital sex after the partner is sterilized is better. The lesser of two evils is still evil, and shouldn't be accepted in society.

And I still don't think doctor-assisted suicide makes human life a commodity more than at-home suicide does. Currently, doctor-assisted suicide is a very thought out and serious choice, that necessarily must be done of free will.

The thing is, people like Millner want to remove the stigma and make it acceptable and just another valid option for anyone who wants to die. It's not. Hiding behind the legality of the situation is akin to the people of Ammonihah who refused to listen to the advice of the prophet because he had no lawful jurisdiction over them, yet were at that very time were plotting to overthrow the government.

Let me ask you this, though: do you believe that this would be bad if it were illegal? Does the legality of the operation make it okay?

I'd like to point out that the controversy surrounding this article- a perfectly healthy woman wanting to die with her husband- finds its potency in the fact that the woman is perfectly healthy, but just wants to die.

Ultimately, the current laws matter very little as a requirement of the slippery slope is that society degrades to match the degradation of the act allowed by the people. The upstanding ethics of today that uphold the law may not be in place tomorrow. Satan is subtle; he works in the hearts of the people to get them to accept sin today so that their children will be desensitized and all the worse for it tomorrow.

I'm a little tired right now; let me restate and make sure I'm not talking past you or addressing straw men. We're talking about whether the widespread acceptance of third-party (that is, a party not associated with the treatment of the individual's ailment) assisted suicide situations can lead to the widespread 'culling' of the human race (that is, the forced euthanasia of the elderly and infirm, chronically ill, etc.). You're arguing that because of pithy differences between assisted, consensual suicide and murder that the one cannot lead to the other. I have claimed that it can because, morally, they are not too different in this situation (which is the example I look to as the kind of act that could lead to the 'culling').

Is that accurate?

[OtterPop]

I don't think suicide is a "right," and I don't think it should be recognized as such. Suicide needs to remain illegal -- not because people should be prosecuted for attempting it, but because we need to be able to intervene. Citizens and law enforcement can't restrain adults from engaging in behavior that is legal.

[Dravin]

I don't think suicide is a "right," and I don't think it should be recognized as such. Suicide needs to remain illegal -- not because people should be prosecuted for attempting it, but because we need to be able to intervene. Citizens and law enforcement can't restrain adults from engaging in behavior that is legal.

That's something I've never thought of before. If suicide was legal (completely and totally) then the days of the suicide watch would be gone. Your 19 year old son is suicidal? Good luck getting him admitted, it'd be like trying to admit somebody for wanting to eat a Snickers.

[Elphaba]

What is that? Do you think suicide is funny?

Edited April 3, 2009 by Elphaba

[Elphaba]

look at this as a moral issue, not just a legal one. If we are to believe that an act's legality is the deciding factor in its impact on society, then we are to be blown about by the winds of false doctrine. Legalizing and/or the acceptance of such a gross sin as suicide and assisted suicide is harmful to society, and is as much a symptom of degeneracy as it is a cause of grief.

. . .

By the way, I was under the impression that suicide is illegal in most countries? I have no backing for that though; I may be completely wrong.

Suicide is not illegal in England or the U.S.

[Elphaba]

That's something I've never thought of before. If suicide was legal (completely and totally) then the days of the suicide watch would be gone. Your 19 year old son is suicidal? Good luck getting him admitted, it'd be like trying to admit somebody for wanting to eat a Snickers.

Suicide is completely and totally legal.

[Gwen]

"Minelli said that anyone who has “mental capacity” should be allowed to have an assisted suicide"

is a woman in the state of grief of "mental capacity"? who are we to really judge when someone is thinking clearly. in a state of shock or grief they probably aren't.

i've heard depressed ppl make very "sound" and "clear" arguments for killing theirself.... once the depression lifts they will admit themselves that they were not thinking straight and glad nothing happened.

[prospectmom]

Can we look at this from another side... The person who is in severe pain and there is no hope for recovery.... I do not advocate suicide but I do have such deep compassion for those in such a situation who just want relief... to have a way out... I can;t agree with the beginning thread about the couple and anyone who makes a business out of helping people kill themselves is just so wrong....on so many levels......

My Mother- in -law had Cancer and was dying... I was her caregiver and she always said "I just wish I would wake up dead" Her pain and misery was such it broke our hearts... She eventualy did die early one morning... I fewlt such relief for her... If she ahd done something to end her life I would have understood seeing the misery and pain she endured.... I am glad she did not and she wqas a blessing in my life those last days........ Seeing someone you love withering in pain from cancer... loosing hair , weight, their minds to it is more than some can bear...... There needs to be love and understanding.. Hospice does that although we were never luckey enought to have those wonderful people who help the dying in my mother in laws case..... To profit from suicide is the sin and the thing that should be illegal....

Forgive my fragmented thoughts...

Edited April 5, 2009 by prospectmom
Mother in law not Mother

[GingerGolden]

Can we look at this from another side... The person who is in severe pain and there is no hope for recovery.... I do not advocate suicide but I do have such deep compassion for those in such a situation who just want relief... to have a way out...

Thank you.

I suffer from a great deal of continual pain and have done so since 1973. That is a long time to continually hurt. The pain never stops, if not in one area then in another, or all of them at once.

(I can really relate to that wild animal who chews off its own foot to get out of a painful trap, but I can't chew off my skeleton, nope not at all.)

The continual pain (that runs from the crown of my head to the bottom of my feet), causes me not to want to even move, because something somewhere is going to be in pain. But I do it anyway or at least the best I can!

Name a place connected to the bones and ask me if it hurts.

Heck, I've been walking around for months now with a hip out of place, and thankful that they both aren't out of place (and I've lived through that as well).

Holding a pen to write can't last long enough to make it to the end of the paper while writing.

Taking a step can cause the ankle to not set back in its place and the list goes on, unfortunately...

{the reasons for this continual pain are from accidents and abuse, the biggest part of them stem from a sporting accident in HS on a trampoline and I was never taken to the Dr. bones stayed out of place for many years without being put back and now they think they are suppose to be out of place.}

Ignoring pain is a part of my life, I hate it and sometimes it makes me hate myself.

Continual pain is continual torture!

Pain from movement causes overweight, though I hardly eat at all and could always out do any other tiny gal on the aerobics floor or the dance floor and yes, even in the bedroom. (and still can on a good day, while ignoring the pain)

(Even back then there was pain, I just kept going, cause that was the only thing to do...)

Just last week, I told my mother that if something were to happen to me, to tell the Doctors to just let me go, I did not want have to lay up in a bed with people pulling on me. It would only cause them pain and because of the pain I suffer, their pulling on me would only cause me even more pain. Therefore, it is best just to let Ginger go. because I do not want others hurting themselves to help me and I can't take much more pain myself.

Death is welcome here!

I welcome death since it will be a relief of this physical pain that never stops.

I told her that if I'd been a horse, they'd have had the mercy to put me out of my misery years ago.

And honestly, if it weren't for my children, I've have already found a means of letting loose of this pain filled body.

Some may consider this just awful or sinful, but I tell you what, you live your life suffering in continual pain in many areas of your body from the time you are 13 till you are nearly 50, that's nearly 30 years, and then tell me that it's just sinful to feel this way.

Live it first before you judge it!

I'm just thankful that some days are a little better than others...

Edited April 3, 2009 by GingerGolden

[OtterPop]

Suicide is completely and totally legal.

Elphaba's right. I hadn't realized that it actually is legal. According to a quick internet search, it seems that attempting suicide is illegal in some states, but not all.

[Dravin]

What is that? Do you think suicide is funny?

I'd think its pretty obvious what it is, as for the context look at the post above it. Its from the show Futurama. It was an attempt at satire of the idea there is nothing at all wrong with suicide or assisting somebody, maybe a pinch of, if its legal and there is money involved somebody will do it, though not a particularly brilliant example of satire by any means.

For the record suicide can be funny, but then nearly anything can be funny (I still chuckle at the occasional dead baby joke even though they are horrible and can actually make me a mite queasy) especially when gallows humor is involved. Now do you mean its funny in the same way the Three Stooges is funny? No, but heck, my MTC buds and I had one missionary in our district who was very, very dull to listen to, we took to playing 'suicide mimes' (pantomiming ways we were offing ourself to get out of listening to him), not mature but we found it amusing.

Interesting though that Suicide hasn't been illegal in England and Wales since the early sixties, and only a handful of US States ever did so and none no longer do. I wonder what the rational is for preventing somebody from doing something that is completely legal. I'm thinking suicide watches and the like, people throw around a sound mind, but what exactly does that mean? I wouldn't consider the lady in the OP of being of sound mind, and if somebody thinks their life is endless emotional pain how do you determine that is a less sound judgment than endless physical pain?

[Madriglace]

Assisted suicide is just plain wrong. This coming from someone who lived in the first state to recongnize it and in a state that just recently recognized it. The scary part is that now they want to make it illegal in our state for doctors to refuse to give a patients the drugs to do the deed, as they want to make it illegal for doctors to refuse to do abortions. I agree that it's only a matter of time before it leads to other things ... the population becomes desensitized and then it just kind of slides in. Don't think so???? Well there was abortion and now there is partial birth abortion.

[Islander]

I will not bother you with the details, but death is always welcomed when physical pain is inflicted upon us. Heck, the threat of physical pain is enough to drive some to commit suicide rather than endure excruciating pain. Trust me, I know what I am talking about. In most societies if one wants to end his/her own life for whatever reason one can do so and the rest of us are left to clean up the mess and deal with the aftermath.

However, as people of faith, we have a moral objection to suicide. GOD has rule and dominion over our existence. We were made by HIM, given life, sustenance and safeguarded by HIM throughout our lives by His mercy and grace. We are to face the challenges of mortality upheld by faith in the Savior and with an eye single to the glory and exaltation that await us, after we have struggled and suffered (yes) thru the trials of mortality. Thus ALL life is sacred, embedded in the plan of salvation and not our domain. To end life by one's hand as to bypass the process is unholy and a grave sin, the consequences of which we can not fathom on this side of the veil.

The argument so far seems to be reduced to "right and ownership" of one's destiny and life. What about the non-sanctioned or mentally/physically severely impaired? They obviously are completely dependent on others for sustenance and thus to a certain extent surrender their rights to a ward or guardian. Such can, and certainly will (perhaps not int eh West, though) contend that this being, not able to sustain itself, or even being aware of its own existence, should not live in such "horrendous and precarious condition, lacking any quality of life or enjoyment." One mother would claim that the infant is in pain, it has no chance of a normal life, it has a limited life expectancy, she has not the resources to sustain the infant (expensive medical resources) and the humane thing to do is to "assist" in the "termination of the life" of the infant.

In the West, traditionally very ethnocentric and historically illiterate, very little is known if any of practice of euthanasia. In many countries in the third world developmentally disabled children are left in the maternity wards in the hospitals every day. To be transferred to a "cradled house" or orphanage

where they WILL die within days for they can not nurse and no life saving medical resources are available for G-tubbing or other means to keep them alive. Yeah, I know, you will not find it in Wikipedia or CNN.

The next step will be "Family Assisted Suicide." Or, for SS couples "Partner Assisted Suicide." Which turns into whomever designated to be the "partner" for the purposes of killing oneself.

30 years ago the thought of a physician assisting in killing someone was abhorrent. It is legal today. Yes, there is such a thing as a slippery slope. 30 some years ago homosexuals in San Francisco lobbied "to be left alone and not being harassed by the police in their private gatherings" Today they are using the power of the government to force teir social values ontot he rest of society. Just another example.