Bent On Vengeance

Winnie G · February 15, 2005

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...rder050215.html

What is wrong with the states that would send a young man who at 12 murdered his grandparents to 30 years in jail?

At 12! Yah sure he is 15 now but holy cow he was 12.

This would never happen in Canada.

I have a friend who works for department of corrections at a child and adolescent treatment centre with children who murder. In its 40-year history not one has ever re-offended or any other crime. These are children who set fires after abuse or drop rat poison in their drunken parents beers. It happened more then we care to admit and because there is a shield law to protect the miner from the news media.

Have we become a society that is bent on vengeance?

February 15, 2005

It happened more then we care to admit and because there is a shield law to protect the miner from the news media.

And thus we have no way to substantiate your friend's claim that none of the young murderers ever "re-offended." I find that hard to believe.

Franken · February 15, 2005

Originally posted by Winnie G@Feb 15 2005, 12:51 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...rder050215.html
What is wrong with the states that would send a young man who at 12 murdered his grandparents to 30 years in jail?
At 12! Yah sure he is 15 now but holy cow he was 12.
This would never happen in Canada.
I have a friend who works for department of corrections at a child and adolescent treatment centre with children who murder. In its 40-year history not one has ever re-offended or any other crime. These are children who set fires after abuse or drop rat poison in their drunken parents beers. It happened more then we care to admit and because there is a shield law to protect the miner from the news media.
Have we become a society that is bent on vengeance?

That's just our nations sense of justice so it seems.

What about the New York Sniper though? Do you think he should have had a lighter sentance?

Outshined · February 15, 2005

He murdered two people(his own family, no less) and set their house on fire. He does not belong in society.

pushka · February 15, 2005

Wow! that's one difficult situation...I would not have liked to have been a juror on that case...

Note the defence's use of the fact that the boy was taking an anti-depressant at the time, Zoloft...questions need to be asked about why a child of 12 had to be prescribed those type of medications, and had he been offered counselling as a back up to taking the meds?

Also, noted by the prosecution, the fact that the boy was angry with his grandparents because they had disciplined him for trying to choke another schoolchild on a bus!!

There seems to be definitely more going on behind the scenes of this case than has actually been reported in the media...we don't know the full facts, I presume the jury were made aware of them, so we cannot judge..

February 15, 2005

It's a good thing I wasn't on that jury. There is no way on earth I could, in good conscience, convict a twelve year old (being tried as an adult) of first degree murder. That child needs medical help, not thirty years of prison.

StrawberryFields · February 15, 2005

I agree with Pushka that we shouldn't judge because we don't know all of the facts. This statement bothers me though ""I don't care how old he is. That is as malicious a killing – a murder – as you are ever going to find," the prosecutor said. He pointed to Pittman's statement to police in which he said his grandparents "deserved it." "

Some other things they did not mention are why he was with his grandparents and not his parents. What was the cause of his depression? I believe that there are more answers in the previous questions as to why he killed them. I don't think that it could be just the meds.

Winnie G · February 16, 2005

Since my friend was on the forefront of this program the government requires registration of the children like a sex offenders registries.

Weather you believe it or not is up to you but the numbers speak for them self’s.

The sniper in DC was not 12 was he? So I would not think twice about a teenager being tried as an adult, there was no question about his age or proscription drugs in that case.

His family was interviewed this morning and they are very upset over the verdict they said knowing the young man like they do they saw a personality change and know something was wrong around the time it happened. They said even his grandparents would have been shocked at the sentence and would have wanted help not prison.

Canadian department of corrections is federally run so sentence’s run the same across Canada. You cannot be wanted in one province and not in another.

There is no extradition. Because of that records are kept regarding who is most likely to re-offend. In cases of murder with no prier acts they are considered less likely to re-offend. Its been proven.

In turn Canada has a dangerous offenders act witch is used for anyone who has had a record of violent acts to receive a life sentence. Murder is 25 years in Canada.

Child sex offenders are more likely to receive life under the dangerous offenders act then a murder.

I think those death sentences need to be used only in the case of a person with a history of violent acts that includes child sex offenders, persons who home invade the elderly with a history of violent crimes.

My big question is why would a grate nation founded on democracy have so little incite compassion for the youth and mentally challenge?

My points being you are what you do.

I have had the opportunity to walk in the shoes of grieving parent and demanded justice for my son and the dangerous offenders act was lobbied and was granted including chemical castration.

You cant judge a 12 year old with that same judgement as a adult, forget the drugs that are forced upon the youth of today starting with elementary school age.

I have always loved the rock song saying were are not another brick in the wall.

February 16, 2005

Winnie: Your constant digs at everything American really annoy me. That being said, I will say that I agree with you 100% on this case. If we are going to send this child to prison for 30 years, his mother who abandoned him, and his father who beat him should go with him. I don't think it was just the medication to blame in this case. This was already a very troubled child when he started taking the Zoloft. His dad was nowhere to be seen during the trial. I'm sure people don't expect their child to become a murderer when they abandon or abuse them, but how do they think the child will grow up?

Maybe making parenting classes madatory for all parents would be a start. "You need a driver's license to drive and a fishing license to fish, but any #$$&*!@ can be a parent!" (Keanu Reeves--Parenthood)

shanstress70 · February 16, 2005

I agree that this punishment is harsh for a 12 year old.

However, please stop with your digs about the US. For Gosh sakes, stay in Canada!

I bet you're all for Karla Homolka's 12 year sentence for the 'Ken & Barbie murders' there in Canada. Yeah, why punish her for any longer than that? It would be so mean!

Obviously there are a lot of Canadians who think it would be better to live here in the US... cause they're all around me at my office!

StrawberryFields · February 16, 2005

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 16 2005, 11:17 AM
If we are going to send this child to prison for 30 years, his mother who abandoned him, and his father who beat him should go with him. I don't think it was just the medication to blame in this case. This was already a very troubled child when he started taking the Zoloft. His dad was nowhere to be seen during the trial. I'm sure people don't expect their child to become a murderer when they abandon or abuse them, but how do they think the child will grow up?

So that is part of the reason for his anger.

His grandparents certainly did not deserve to be brutally killed by this child whom they were trying to help as he stated to the police.

StrawberryFields · February 16, 2005

Originally posted by Winnie G@Feb 16 2005, 09:39 AM
I have had the opportunity to walk in the shoes of grieving parent and demanded justice for my son and the dangerous offenders act was lobbied and was granted including chemical castration.

Winnie,

I am not sure what you meant by this statement above. Did something happen to your son?

Amillia · February 16, 2005

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 15 2005, 04:58 PM
It's a good thing I wasn't on that jury. There is no way on earth I could, in good conscience, convict a twelve year old (being tried as an adult) of first degree murder. That child needs medical help, not thirty years of prison.

I agree with Curvette. He needs help he won't get in the prison system.

Amillia · February 16, 2005

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Feb 16 2005, 12:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Feb 16 2005, 12:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Feb 16 2005, 11:17 AM
If we are going to send this child to prison for 30 years, his mother who abandoned him, and his father who beat him should go with him. I don't think it was just the medication to blame in this case. This was already a very troubled child when he started taking the Zoloft. His dad was nowhere to be seen during the trial. I'm sure people don't expect their child to become a murderer when they abandon or abuse them, but how do they think the child will grow up?

So that is part of the reason for his anger.

His grandparents certainly did not deserve to be brutally killed by this child whom they were trying to help as he stated to the police.

I think there is one thing we have to think about.

What will other youthful angry kids do if this young man is given no harsh penalty?

Will they think it is a viable possibility for them also?

I think they ought to place a strong enough penalty on the child, to dettur (sp) future youth from doing it,

but should also include a consentrated effort to help these kids with their problems and not just throw

them into prison for X amount of years.

Winnie G · February 17, 2005

I am an American too you know.

My feelings about this matter come from a American who lives in Canada.

My husband is Canada Military.

My statement calling the US a Grate nation is not a put down; it’s a confused statement.

Were is the compassion for the children?

I see it here too, its not all warm fuzzy for children in Canada. Just yesterday the news came that the only shelter in Winnipeg that takes child / teens in that are removed from volatile situations has lost half its government funding.

Telling the province they have to pick up the slake.

For those of you that don’t know, a newly released sex offender kidnapped one of my sons. Three days later the police called us to the hospital our son suffered more then the mind can understand. When the police stormed the hotel were he took my son this animal was strangling my son. He said "he was done with him". It’s been years he is now 27 and still suffers from depression panic attacks and twice has been hospitalized for being suicidal. He is copping and has a wonderful sweat hart and stepson.

This man was sentenced as a dangerous offender if he is not dead yet he is miserable.

The prison is located near a military base a lot of the correctional officers are retired military. The word that he did this to a military child did not take long to reach their ears.

shanstress70 · February 17, 2005

I'm so sorry that your son, and you as a mother had to go through that. I can't even begin to imagine!

I hope he never gets out. Do you know if he will?

Winnie G · February 17, 2005

No he won’t under the dangerous offender act he is incarcerated for the rest of his life.

Even a murder has a chance but not a dangerous offender.

February 17, 2005

Originally posted by Winnie G@Feb 17 2005, 12:04 PM
No he won’t under the dangerous offender act he is incarcerated for the rest of his life.
Even a murder has a chance but not a dangerous offender.

Interesting.

I don't know if I particularly like that system. I believe that a true civilization's justice system should be designed not only to protect society, but to do justice. To do justice, the punishment should fit the crime. If protection of society were the only consideration, the police should be able to identify potentially dangerous offenders and lock them away for life before the even offend, like in the movie "Minority Report."

Civilized societies don't do that, because they believe that protection of society is not enough for the justice system to go into action to strip a person of his rights. The person must actually commit some intentional, wrongful act first. That is, there is a moral component to justice.

From these moral calculations flows the concept that the punishment should fit the crime. Society would probably be far better protected against speeding, for example, if the punishment for it were five years in jail and a $10,000 fine, but that would be unjust, because the punishment would not fit the crime.

That's why I think it's unjust for a "dangerous offender" to receive a lighter sentence than a murderer. Murder is the worst crime a criminal can commit. It should have the heaviest punishment. Otherwise, you have the social-protection aspect of the justice system getting out ahead of the justice component.

Winnie G · February 17, 2005

A "dangerous offender" is only put in place when a person is deemed un- rebebilitated

It is put in place when there is a history of violent offence and has been incarcerated numerous times.

In the case of my son he had a record since he was 15 and had been in and out of jail all his life.

I demanded "dangerous offender" act be put in to place. He is also comically castrated each month. This animal fought being comically castrated then the dangerous offender sentence, he told the court “they had no right to take away his sex life in jail” the judge told him he had no right to any sex life.

A repeated child rapist deserves the longest and hardest sentence society can place on society worst.

Murderers have the lowest rate of re-offending If (IF) there is no previous violent criminal record. I know that is hard to believe but the numbers don’t lie. Correction Canada has kept records for the last 40+ years. Murder is 99% a personal crime it un likely to re offend.

That’s way anti death penalty groups have so much to go on.

Now this does not cover repeat offenders that have long criminal records that escalate to violent acts.

shanstress70 · February 18, 2005

Originally posted by Winnie G@Feb 17 2005, 05:33 PM
He is also comically castrated each month.

What is comical castration? Even with the worst of criminals, I don't think it would be comical...

StrawberryFields · February 18, 2005

Originally posted by shanstress70+Feb 17 2005, 06:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Feb 17 2005, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Feb 17 2005, 05:33 PM
He is also comically castrated each month.

What is comical castration? Even with the worst of criminals, I don't think it would be comical...

LOL

I think she meant Chemically, not Comically...

StrawberryFields · February 18, 2005

Originally posted by Winnie G@Feb 17 2005, 10:13 AM
For those of you that donÃÕ know, a newly released sex offender kidnapped one of my sons. Three days later the police called us to the hospital our son suffered more then the mind can understand. When the police stormed the hotel were he took my son this animal was strangling my son. He said "he was done with him". ItÃÔ been years he is now 27 and still suffers from depression panic attacks and twice has been hospitalized for being suicidal. He is copping and has a wonderful sweat hart and stepson.

I am so sorry about this. How old was he when it happened? Has he been to therapy for this?

There are not too many things that feel worse as a mom then when your child is hurt and you can't make it better.

shanstress70 · February 18, 2005

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Feb 17 2005, 07:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Feb 17 2005, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -shanstress70@Feb 17 2005, 06:10 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Feb 17 2005, 05:33 PM
He is also comically castrated each month.
What is comical castration? Even with the worst of criminals, I don't think it would be comical...

LOL

I think she meant Chemically, not Comically...

Thanks SF! That makes more sense. I knew she probably meant something else, and I can usually figure them out, but not this time.

I'll have to google that and see what it means... I'm guessing it's a medication that kills one's sex drive.

Amillia · February 18, 2005

Originally posted by shanstress70+Feb 17 2005, 06:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Feb 17 2005, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Feb 17 2005, 05:33 PM
He is also comically castrated each month.

What is comical castration? Even with the worst of criminals, I don't think it would be comical...

Lindy · February 19, 2005

IMO the man should be physically castrated, unless the chemicals release a tremendous amount of pain and suffering every month.

shanstress....here's a couple of sites to get you started

http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawreview/...2/spalfram.html

http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/crimes_y.htm

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