Questions From A Seeker

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave+Feb 9 2004, 10:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sanctuaryave @ Feb 9 2004, 10:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 10:42 PM

What do you believe in the church?

What do you mean??

In other words, you're talking about a very complex belief here. And if you don't believe in the simple stuff (like Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, the Book of Mormon is a true book written by prophets of old, that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are seperate entities with one common purpose) then you will NEVER understand this. You can not run, before you walk. My question is, how well are you "walking" with your beliefs in the church?

[sanctuaryave]

I am just beginning. I have had some exposure to the BOM and am finding truth in it but have some reservations.

Regarding Joseph Smith, and please I don't mean to offend, I have studied his history and feel that while he may have been an extrordinary teenager, his adult life was criminal. Certainly there were some awful things visited on him and I dont agree with them, but Joseph Smith broke the law almost everywhere he went. Some say it was persecution for his beliefs. I think it was his own misdeed visited upon himself. I am not refering to the tar and feather incidents or his murder. Those were criminal as well. I refer to the banking scandel, the desire to overthrow the govt, the danites. Even more, the postion he put the membership of the church at the time. The kinderhook plates, his facsination with the Masons.

Does membership in the church require holding Joseph Smith in high esteem? If what I see in the church members is real, as I think it may be, I can look past the misdeeds of JS, for my focus would be and should be Jesus Christ. However, if membership in the church demands honoring Joseph Smith and recognizing him as an a person I want my kids to emulate. I guess I will have some issues.

[Blessed]

Hi sanctuary. I didn't know you were over here.

Good thread. I am learning a lot. I respectfully don't believe in this as my brothers and sisters do. I have to reference my belief to the scripture that says "there is one God. One heaven and one earth." (paraphrase). I don't remember where that is exactly, but I will look it up.

Blessed

[Paul Osborne]

sanctuaryave,

You are invited to read my little article on the theology of God which I know to be correct Mormon doctrine. I believe God has a Father and that he also has a Father.

http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id125.htm

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 6 2004, 10:43 PM

The church doesn't teach reincarnation in the same way that some may believe...like past lives on this earth.

We do believe in resurrection... :)

We believe, at least President Snows generation believed, that as man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become.

And let all the congregation say Amen.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 8 2004, 09:08 AM

Since all the galaxies are moving away from eachother, and the universe contains an "echo" of electromagnetic radiation that clearly indicates that around 13 billion years ago, the universe had no planets, stars nor galaxies, but was simply an expanding ball of high temperature elementary particles, what was God doing then? Which "planet" was he on and where was Kolob then?

Cal,

This is pure theory based on what man thinks he understands based on how he measures and interprets data available today.

Where were you 50 billion years ago?

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 09:28 AM

Waitaminute. Your prophets says that he doesn't know if his own church teaches that. AND he said it was more of a couplet than anything. Are you telling me that Mormons really believe that As God once was Man is, and as God is Man may become? Can you show me where this is supported my Mormon scripture?

Antishock,

The prophet was simply outsmarting the press. He knows the doctrine is true and has taught it in General Conference not too many years ago but he doesn't want it published in the front page of the newspaper or broadcasted on the nightly news. He is avoiding the issue and this is his way of saying, “back off”. Is it any different than Abraham saying Sara was his sister? Not really. God is at the helm. President Hinkley is smart and he beat the media at their own game.

Read his statement ever so carefuly. It is a prepared statement-- rehersed and very carefuly crafted. If you have a problem with Hinkley, all I can tell you is to go "jump in the lake"! B)

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 8 2004, 11:49 AM

Here are some more I found through scripture search:

Man, potential to become like Heavenly Father: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5: 48 (3 Ne. 12: 48). Is it not written in your law that ye are gods? John 10: 34 (D&C 76: 58). We may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, Rom. 8: 17. Thou art a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4: 7. When he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3: 2. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me on my throne, Rev. 3: 21. To them have I given to become the sons of God, 3 Ne. 9: 17. Those who inherit the celestial kingdom are gods, even the sons of God, D&C 76: 50, 58. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, D&C 132: 20.

Excellent. I'd like to add more and you're welcome to cut and paste at will:

by Paul O:

The Lord has revealed to prophets that man may become like God. This is a great mystery and is revealed in the Bible by prophets who desired to teach the saints concerning the ultimate possibilities for those who fully embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ.

However, this concept is not accepted by modern Christian religions that read the Bible using traditional interpretations and beliefs that have been passed down through the centuries. On the other hand, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recognize the precious utterances concerning the promise of godhood and eternal exaltation and believe them as also did the prophets. This doctrine teaches that the greatest gift that god has to offer is the divine blessing of being deified and to become an eternal god to rule, reign, and create a kingdom in heaven whereby God the Father is further exalted in that his children are glorified with him.

Latter-day Saints appreciate the Biblical record that testifies of God's great love for his children. Perhaps it might be possible to reason with you, Chris, seeing that I will quote some Bible verses about this subject. If you choose not to accept the implied teaching of the doctrine as contained in the Bible, then at least you will better understand why Latter-day Saints claim the Bible supports the revealed doctrine given by the prophet Joseph Smith which states, "Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God".

Let us now take some precious Biblical doctrine out of context and into the light.

"YE ARE GODS"

"The Jews answered him saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said YE ARE GODS? If he CALLED THEM GODS unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken." John 10:33-35

Jesus declared his real identity to the unbelieving Jews in John 10:30. The Jews were so outraged with the Lord for implying that he himself was part of the Godhead, therefore they picked up stones to kill Jesus. At this juncture, Christ quoted Psalms 82:6 which points out that all mankind who come to earth are in fact "gods" (in embryo), children of God who may become like the Most High. God's children are "called gods" on condition that they embrace the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

"BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT"

"Be ye therefore PERFECT, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

The "sons of God" (John 1:12; 1 John 3:3) may become "perfect" in every sense like God the Father. The word "perfect" implies that the perfection of man is to be fully complete and develop into a perfect being, hence a god. Therefore, Jesus taught that the sons of God may become "even as your Father". Jesus herein implies when a son of God is perfected and becomes "even as the Father", they are indeed of the same class because the son fulfills the measure of his creation by becoming a god. In what other way could man reach perfection "even as the Father"? Is this not why the Lord "called them gods and the scripture cannot be broken"?

"UNTO A PERFECT MAN"

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST." Ephesians 4:13

This powerful statement has infinite implications and gives definition and meaning to Jesus statement when he said, "be ye therefore perfect". It positively confirms that when a man of God reaches the full measure of perfection he will become like God, being perfect in every way. We learn that the "perfect man" will reach "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" and thereby obtain godhood with Jesus.

"WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM"

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God; Therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doeth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:1,2

Indeed man may truly become "like" God. I believe this passage just as it reads in the Bible. It teaches exactly "what we shall be" in the hereafter and agrees with the concepts previously presented. How can anyone be "like him" and not be a god also?

"PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE"

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye mighty be PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:3,4

Remember the Lord himself called them "gods", therefore they who receive "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" will naturally live in a state of godhood. What does it mean to be "partakers of the divine nature"? We must first take into account that God and Christ are divine in nature. We also must see that man through God's divine power may also become "divine in nature" and be caught up into perfect glory.

"CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE"

"But we all with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Corinthians 3:18

In Genesis 1:26,27 we learn that mankind is physically made in the image of God and that God himself has a "body" (Phil 3:21). The apostle Paul expanded this concept in that man may become glorified in God's own glorious image in the celestial resurrection. When the saints in the hereafter become deified they literally are gloriously changed into the "same image" as God. Notice how the apostle describes this state as being "from glory to glory", signifying that the gods continue in heavenly glory for eternity.

"NO MORE A SERVANT, BUT A SON"

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father. Wherefore THOU ART NO MORE A SERVANT, BUT A SON and if a son, then an HEIR OF GOD through Christ" Galatians 4:6,7

God is truly our Heavenly Father and we are indeed his children who have the opportunity to receive everything that the Father has to offer through his Son Jesus Christ who is also an heir of God (Heb 1:2). What word could better describe the status of a perfect man who dwells in heaven, not as a servant but as a son and heir of God? First, we define the actual meaning of the word "heir" to be one who is entitled to receive a person's property or title. Jesus Christ defined the divine nature of an heir who receives God's property and title when he sat down at the right side of the throne of God.

"JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST"

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be glorified together." Romans 8:16,17

Again we see that the children of God may become heirs and are "glorified together" with God. We read in Hebrews 1:2 that Jesus himself is an heir of God in as much as he inherited his Father's kingdom. The apostle Paul proves the words of Christ which say, "Ye are gods" by pointing out that the gods become "joint-heirs with Christ". How else could a perfect man become a god and "reach the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" unless he becomes a "joint-heir" together with him? This calls to mind the words of Jesus who promised that the saints may become one with God even as Jesus himself is one with God, for the Lord said, "they also may be one in us...that they may be one, even as we are one" John 17:21,22

"INHERIT ALL THINGS"

"He that overcometh shall INHERIT ALL THINGS and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" Revelation 21:7

Lo and behold, we learn that man may "inherit all things" even as Jesus did and was "appointed heir of all things". This powerful statement ties an eternal knot in the promise that the sons of God may become "joint-heirs with Christ" and likewise receive every thing that was offered Jesus. The Father loves his children with infinite love and desires them to become as he is and do what he does.

"SIT WITH ME IN MY THRONE"

"To him that overcometh will I grant to SIT WITH ME IN MY THRONE, EVEN AS I also overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne" Revelation 3:21

Jesus Christ overcame the world and "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb 1:3) in the throne of God. Herein the Lord promises that the sons of God who gain the victory over the world may become divine and sit down in the throne of God becoming "joint-heirs with Christ". This declaration proves beyond all doubt that the Father and Son desire to offer Godhood to all who are victorious in Christ. What did Jesus say he wanted us to be? "EVEN AS I".

There is nothing in the Bible that says that man cannot become a god in the glory of the ONE God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Heck, I do hope to be one with God and Christ— even joint-heirs. The Bible teaches this doctrine.

A side note, one of your D&C quotes identifies Abraham as our father. Is he God the Father or just another god that we must go through to reach the highest level of Heaven?

To note— Abraham is our father, so also is Noah, and especially Adam being the father of our race. We cannot get into the highest heaven without passing the angels who stand as sentinels and that includes the righteous Patriarchs who sat down at the right hand of the Heavenly Father. Abraham is God Almighty, but NOT our God. He rules and reigns in his own kingdom for he possesses all things and wears the crown of his kingdom. Nevertheless he still bows his knee to Jesus the Potentate King of Kings and to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who sits enthroned with crowns cast at his feet in exaltation and glory as depicted in the Book of Revelation.

In summary:

"My son, ye are a god and the scripture is not broken (John 10:34,35) for I am God of gods(Deut 10:17). Ye are now perfect even as your Father who is also perfect (Matt 5:48 & Eph 4:13). See now how you are exalted and have reached the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13). You are like God (1 John 3:1,2) and a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3,4) being one with me as I am one with you (John 17:23). See how you have been changed into the same image (2 Cor 3:18) and are no longer a servant but a son (Gal 4:6,7), even a joint-heir with Christ (Rom 6:16,17) and you with him have inherited all things (Rev 21:7). My son, sit with me in my throne at my right side as Jesus also does and be ye God(3:21)."

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Feb 10 2004, 07:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Feb 10 2004, 07:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 8 2004, 11:49 AM

Here are some more I found through scripture search:

Man, potential to become like Heavenly Father: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5: 48 (3 Ne. 12: 48). Is it not written in your law that ye are gods? John 10: 34 (D&C 76: 58). We may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, Rom. 8: 17. Thou art a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4: 7. When he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3: 2. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me on my throne, Rev. 3: 21. To them have I given to become the sons of God, 3 Ne. 9: 17. Those who inherit the celestial kingdom are gods, even the sons of God, D&C 76: 50, 58. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, D&C 132: 20.

Excellent. I'd like to add more and you're welcome to cut and paste at will:

by Paul O:

The Lord has revealed to prophets that man may become like God. This is a great mystery and is revealed in the Bible by prophets who desired to teach the saints concerning the ultimate possibilities for those who fully embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ.

However, this concept is not accepted by modern Christian religions that read the Bible using traditional interpretations and beliefs that have been passed down through the centuries. On the other hand, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recognize the precious utterances concerning the promise of godhood and eternal exaltation and believe them as also did the prophets. This doctrine teaches that the greatest gift that god has to offer is the divine blessing of being deified and to become an eternal god to rule, reign, and create a kingdom in heaven whereby God the Father is further exalted in that his children are glorified with him.

Latter-day Saints appreciate the Biblical record that testifies of God's great love for his children. Perhaps it might be possible to reason with you, Chris, seeing that I will quote some Bible verses about this subject. If you choose not to accept the implied teaching of the doctrine as contained in the Bible, then at least you will better understand why Latter-day Saints claim the Bible supports the revealed doctrine given by the prophet Joseph Smith which states, "Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God".

Let us now take some precious Biblical doctrine out of context and into the light.

"YE ARE GODS"

"The Jews answered him saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said YE ARE GODS? If he CALLED THEM GODS unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken." John 10:33-35

Jesus declared his real identity to the unbelieving Jews in John 10:30. The Jews were so outraged with the Lord for implying that he himself was part of the Godhead, therefore they picked up stones to kill Jesus. At this juncture, Christ quoted Psalms 82:6 which points out that all mankind who come to earth are in fact "gods" (in embryo), children of God who may become like the Most High. God's children are "called gods" on condition that they embrace the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

"BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT"

"Be ye therefore PERFECT, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

The "sons of God" (John 1:12; 1 John 3:3) may become "perfect" in every sense like God the Father. The word "perfect" implies that the perfection of man is to be fully complete and develop into a perfect being, hence a god. Therefore, Jesus taught that the sons of God may become "even as your Father". Jesus herein implies when a son of God is perfected and becomes "even as the Father", they are indeed of the same class because the son fulfills the measure of his creation by becoming a god. In what other way could man reach perfection "even as the Father"? Is this not why the Lord "called them gods and the scripture cannot be broken"?

"UNTO A PERFECT MAN"

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST." Ephesians 4:13

This powerful statement has infinite implications and gives definition and meaning to Jesus statement when he said, "be ye therefore perfect". It positively confirms that when a man of God reaches the full measure of perfection he will become like God, being perfect in every way. We learn that the "perfect man" will reach "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" and thereby obtain godhood with Jesus.

"WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM"

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God; Therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doeth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:1,2

Indeed man may truly become "like" God. I believe this passage just as it reads in the Bible. It teaches exactly "what we shall be" in the hereafter and agrees with the concepts previously presented. How can anyone be "like him" and not be a god also?

"PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE"

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye mighty be PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:3,4

Remember the Lord himself called them "gods", therefore they who receive "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" will naturally live in a state of godhood. What does it mean to be "partakers of the divine nature"? We must first take into account that God and Christ are divine in nature. We also must see that man through God's divine power may also become "divine in nature" and be caught up into perfect glory.

"CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE"

"But we all with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Corinthians 3:18

In Genesis 1:26,27 we learn that mankind is physically made in the image of God and that God himself has a "body" (Phil 3:21). The apostle Paul expanded this concept in that man may become glorified in God's own glorious image in the celestial resurrection. When the saints in the hereafter become deified they literally are gloriously changed into the "same image" as God. Notice how the apostle describes this state as being "from glory to glory", signifying that the gods continue in heavenly glory for eternity.

"NO MORE A SERVANT, BUT A SON"

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father. Wherefore THOU ART NO MORE A SERVANT, BUT A SON and if a son, then an HEIR OF GOD through Christ" Galatians 4:6,7

God is truly our Heavenly Father and we are indeed his children who have the opportunity to receive everything that the Father has to offer through his Son Jesus Christ who is also an heir of God (Heb 1:2). What word could better describe the status of a perfect man who dwells in heaven, not as a servant but as a son and heir of God? First, we define the actual meaning of the word "heir" to be one who is entitled to receive a person's property or title. Jesus Christ defined the divine nature of an heir who receives God's property and title when he sat down at the right side of the throne of God.

"JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST"

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be glorified together." Romans 8:16,17

Again we see that the children of God may become heirs and are "glorified together" with God. We read in Hebrews 1:2 that Jesus himself is an heir of God in as much as he inherited his Father's kingdom. The apostle Paul proves the words of Christ which say, "Ye are gods" by pointing out that the gods become "joint-heirs with Christ". How else could a perfect man become a god and "reach the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" unless he becomes a "joint-heir" together with him? This calls to mind the words of Jesus who promised that the saints may become one with God even as Jesus himself is one with God, for the Lord said, "they also may be one in us...that they may be one, even as we are one" John 17:21,22

"INHERIT ALL THINGS"

"He that overcometh shall INHERIT ALL THINGS and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" Revelation 21:7

Lo and behold, we learn that man may "inherit all things" even as Jesus did and was "appointed heir of all things". This powerful statement ties an eternal knot in the promise that the sons of God may become "joint-heirs with Christ" and likewise receive every thing that was offered Jesus. The Father loves his children with infinite love and desires them to become as he is and do what he does.

"SIT WITH ME IN MY THRONE"

"To him that overcometh will I grant to SIT WITH ME IN MY THRONE, EVEN AS I also overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne" Revelation 3:21

Jesus Christ overcame the world and "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb 1:3) in the throne of God. Herein the Lord promises that the sons of God who gain the victory over the world may become divine and sit down in the throne of God becoming "joint-heirs with Christ". This declaration proves beyond all doubt that the Father and Son desire to offer Godhood to all who are victorious in Christ. What did Jesus say he wanted us to be? "EVEN AS I".

There is nothing in the Bible that says that man cannot become a god in the glory of the ONE God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Heck, I do hope to be one with God and Christ— even joint-heirs. The Bible teaches this doctrine.

A side note, one of your D&C quotes identifies Abraham as our father. Is he God the Father or just another god that we must go through to reach the highest level of Heaven?

To note— Abraham is our father, so also is Noah, and especially Adam being the father of our race. We cannot get into the highest heaven without passing the angels who stand as sentinels and that includes the righteous Patriarchs who sat down at the right hand of the Heavenly Father. Abraham is God Almighty, but NOT our God. He rules and reigns in his own kingdom for he possesses all things and wears the crown of his kingdom. Nevertheless he still bows his knee to Jesus the Potentate King of Kings and to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who sits enthroned with crowns cast at his feet in exaltation and glory as depicted in the Book of Revelation.

In summary:

"My son, ye are a god and the scripture is not broken (John 10:34,35) for I am God of gods(Deut 10:17). Ye are now perfect even as your Father who is also perfect (Matt 5:48 & Eph 4:13). See now how you are exalted and have reached the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13). You are like God (1 John 3:1,2) and a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3,4) being one with me as I am one with you (John 17:23). See how you have been changed into the same image (2 Cor 3:18) and are no longer a servant but a son (Gal 4:6,7), even a joint-heir with Christ (Rom 6:16,17) and you with him have inherited all things (Rev 21:7). My son, sit with me in my throne at my right side as Jesus also does and be ye God(3:21)."

Paul O

Wow that was excellent! Thanks for all your work Paul.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 10 2004, 03:58 AM

I am just beginning. I have had some exposure to the BOM and am finding truth in it but have some reservations.

Regarding Joseph Smith, and please I don't mean to offend, I have studied his history and feel that while he may have been an extrordinary teenager, his adult life was criminal. Certainly there were some awful things visited on him and I dont agree with them, but Joseph Smith broke the law almost everywhere he went. Some say it was persecution for his beliefs. I think it was his own misdeed visited upon himself. I am not refering to the tar and feather incidents or his murder. Those were criminal as well. I refer to the banking scandel, the desire to overthrow the govt, the danites. Even more, the postion he put the membership of the church at the time. The kinderhook plates, his facsination with the Masons.

Does membership in the church require holding Joseph Smith in high esteem? If what I see in the church members is real, as I think it may be, I can look past the misdeeds of JS, for my focus would be and should be Jesus Christ. However, if membership in the church demands honoring Joseph Smith and recognizing him as an a person I want my kids to emulate. I guess I will have some issues.

I'm sure there will be other members who will disagree with me wholeheartedly, but it is my personal belief, that if you can not accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, then you will never understand the principals here you're trying to understand. It is a very simple, basic belief in the church, and EVERYONE in the church needs to understand and accept those simple basic beliefs before they can even attempt the higher complex ones.

I'm sorry, I don't think it's possible for you to find what you're looking for.

[cedar]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 7 2004, 12:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 7 2004, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Feb 7 2004, 12:13 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 6 2004, 11:12 PM

hmmm, a babe in the woods...well, It means that God was once a man on earth and through the same pathes He traveled and has outlined for us, we can become like Him....Gods.

On earth? I don't think so.

And no, not at least President's Snow's generation - we still all (the orthodox) believe it today.

I'm sorry Snow....when I was reading this thread to catch up, I noticed that blantant error and was about to edit when I saw your post.... :)

NO God wasn't on THIS earth...but he was on A earth back in the eons of time...and then He went through the process of progression until He became OUR God on THIS EARTH.

As for the President Snow's remark....I was just leaving room for President Hinckley's statement made in that interview on TV. :)

Peace, are you ever going to let us know why you started to believe that even though the Church is true, the prophets are false? Is there a thread where she has already explained this? I would like to know.

[srm]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 6 2004, 10:26 PM

With all due respect. I am seeking information based on some reading I have done regarding the church.

What is the church belief regarding the origin of God? What was he before he was God? Where did he come from?

Does the church teach "reincarnation"?

I smell a troll.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by srm+Feb 10 2004, 11:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Feb 10 2004, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--sanctuaryave@Feb 6 2004, 10:26 PM

With all due respect.  I am seeking information based on some reading I have done regarding the church.

What is the church belief regarding the origin of God? What was he before he was God?  Where did he come from?

Does the church teach "reincarnation"?

I smell a troll.

I am also a little suspicious, but I'm willing to give sanctuaryave the benefit of doubt for the time being.

M.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Feb 10 2004, 06:58 AM

Is it any different than Abraham saying Sara was his sister? Paul O

Sara was his sister you goofball.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by cedar+Feb 10 2004, 11:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cedar @ Feb 10 2004, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 7 2004, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by -Snow@Feb 7 2004, 12:13 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 6 2004, 11:12 PM

hmmm, a babe in the woods...well, It means that God was once a man on earth and through the same pathes He traveled and has outlined for us, we can become like Him....Gods.

On earth? I don't think so.

And no, not at least President's Snow's generation - we still all (the orthodox) believe it today.

I'm sorry Snow....when I was reading this thread to catch up, I noticed that blantant error and was about to edit when I saw your post.... :)

NO God wasn't on THIS earth...but he was on A earth back in the eons of time...and then He went through the process of progression until He became OUR God on THIS EARTH.

As for the President Snow's remark....I was just leaving room for President Hinckley's statement made in that interview on TV. :)

Peace, are you ever going to let us know why you started to believe that even though the Church is true, the prophets are false? Is there a thread where she has already explained this? I would like to know.

I don't know where you got this idea...so I can't really help you here.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Maureen+Feb 10 2004, 12:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Feb 10 2004, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Feb 10 2004, 11:58 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--sanctuaryave@Feb 6 2004, 10:26 PM

With all due respect.  I am seeking information based on some reading I have done regarding the church.

What is the church belief regarding the origin of God? What was he before he was God?  Where did he come from?

Does the church teach "reincarnation"?

I smell a troll.

I am also a little suspicious, but I'm willing to give sanctuaryave the benefit of doubt for the time being.

M.

In any case I have gained a lot from this thread...so some good has come from it.

[sanctuaryave]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 9 2004, 11:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 9 2004, 11:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--sanctuaryave@Feb 8 2004, 04:28 AM

When we worship God.  which god aren we worshipping our creator or his creator? 

. 

I have been reading the Book of Mormon and a little in the Pearl of Great Price and the only mention I have seen regarding anything close to this concept is in the latter.  I also have asked members here locally but they are reluctant to talk about it. 

For anyone who didn't figure it out in the first obvious post or the second obvious post, santuaryave is just a troll with a less than deft touch. Stay tune as he reveals himself.

What do you mean by that??

[Snow]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave+Feb 10 2004, 08:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sanctuaryave @ Feb 10 2004, 08:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Feb 9 2004, 11:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--sanctuaryave@Feb 8 2004, 04:28 AM

When we worship God.  which god aren we worshipping our creator or his creator? 

. 

I have been reading the Book of Mormon and a little in the Pearl of Great Price and the only mention I have seen regarding anything close to this concept is in the latter.  I also have asked members here locally but they are reluctant to talk about it.  

For anyone who didn't figure it out in the first obvious post or the second obvious post, santuaryave is just a troll with a less than deft touch. Stay tune as he reveals himself.

What do you mean by that??

I mean you are not an honest poster. You have ulterior motives. You already know the answers to the questions you are pretending to ask. You only ask them to set up an opportunity to demean the Church once you think you have set us up properly.

A more courageous and honest poster would have come in and been clear with their motives.

A more clever poster would have done a MUCH better job in disguising their intentions.

I don't care if you are a critic. You can be dealt with easily enough. I just don't care for your tactics. Even the non-Mormons here are onto you.

[Snow]

Peace,

I'm the posting police tonight. Stop quoting 150 lines of other's posts just to tell them that you liked it. It is a pain to scroll down through all the duplication. Just tell them you like the post or quote a relevant passage and use "..."

Thank you and go pick up your room.

[sanctuaryave]

by Paul O:

The Lord has revealed to prophets that man may become like God. This is a great mystery and is revealed in the Bible by prophets who desired to teach the saints concerning the ultimate possibilities for those who fully embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ.

ect..

Wow thanks for the info. It is a lot to digest. I have copied it so I can study it in the morning(I am at work currently)

I went to see the movie The TESTAMENT the other day at the visitors center in Kirtland and I must say it was very moving. I have begun to look at the BOM more closely. I also have a brother who is a Mormon Elder with which I have had some discussions. Some of the information I have has come from him and a member of the local priesthood with whom I have been having discussions. I know that there are a world of people out there that want to make horrible remarks and argue just for the sake of argueing. I am asking because I am interested in knowing the truth. I sense that my questions are making people uncomfortable and I apologize for that. It was not my intent. I have asked these questions locally and and have gotten a sense that they are questions they shouldnt talk about. Again I am sorry for causing discomfort or concern. I will seek the answers I need in some other way. Please accept my apologies.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 10 2004, 08:56 PM

Peace,

I'm the posting police tonight. Stop quoting 150 lines of other's posts just to tell them that you liked it. It is a pain to scroll down through all the duplication. Just tell them you like the post or quote a relevant passage and use "..."

Thank you and go pick up your room.

Absolutely Jack! I agree full heartedly... And, btw, my room is picked up and toted off to the nearest dump.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 10 2004, 09:01 PM

...I sense that my questions are making people uncomfortable and I apologize for that. It was not my intent. I have asked these questions locally and and have gotten a sense that they are questions they shouldnt talk about. Again I am sorry for causing discomfort or concern. I will seek the answers I need in some other way. Please accept my apologies.

santuaryave - No need to apologize if you are being sincere with your questions. I am usually not the suspicious type but I was not sure about your style of questioning. This board has had its share of trolls and made up characters (just ask Redbone...er...I mean Snow). Ask away if you don't have any dishonest ulterior motives. :)

M.

[Snow]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 10 2004, 09:01 PM

I sense that my questions are making people uncomfortable and I apologize for that. It was not my intent. I have asked these questions locally and and have gotten a sense that they are questions they shouldnt talk about. Again I am sorry for causing discomfort or concern. I will seek the answers I need in some other way. Please accept my apologies.

Uncomfortable?

Hardly. There are bunches of folk anxious to answer honest question. No one like subterfuge though.

[sanctuaryave]

Well, I was doing that. I'm not sure how to proceed without causing a problem. There are some who seem ready for a fight and I dont want one. I was just looking for answers. The questions may seem difficult or even obnoxious but that was the reason for my apology "with all due respect" up front. I have tried to be repectful and honoring while still asking my questions and giving honest answers to questions asked of me. Regardless... I would like to know what trolling is.

Oh and SNOW...

My use of the word uncomfortable had nothing to do with questioning the depth of your conviction rather, it was attempt to say in a kind way, you have mistaken my motives, questioned my integrity and are acting like a jerk.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 10 2004, 12:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 10 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Feb 10 2004, 06:58 AM

Is it any different than Abraham saying Sara was his sister? Paul O

Sara was his sister you goofball.

I can see my little ball flew right over your head. Oh well. Can't win em all.

Paul O