Need A Little Help

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Mar 4 2005, 10:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Mar 4 2005, 10:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 3 2005, 07:41 PM

Whyprohets was started by three men. One was abused at church and quit, got bitter and let it grow into a full blown apostasy. It wasn't the gospel at first that bothered him.

It was only after he got angry, planted the seed of rebellion that the tree of apostasy grew in his heart, being fed by a lot of anti sights.

I think Mr. Tolworthy may see his departure different than you, but then again what does he know.

I didn't say it was the signature books. I just recognize the authors. They are anti.

I understand the word 'anti' as being against something and I'm pretty sure all of these authors are not against the Mormon church - they all have a very deep connection to the church.

As far as I know both Newell and Avery are Mormon. Quinn was excommunicated but that didn't change his attitude and he is still Mormon via his beliefs. And Palmer was disfellowshipped but he is very much an ardent Mormon in his love for his church.

So explain to me Amillia why you think these authors are 'anti'?

M.

I knew the mr. tolworthy during the months prior to his leaving the church. We had several indepth discussions, and emailed for a while; but maybe you know him better than I do~

And you know when people let anger blind them, they start using all sorts of other things to cover their leaving the church, after all they can't allow themselves or others to know they are really to blame ~ can they ~ it has to be the church's fault.

Why do I think these authors are anti? LOL well I have read their stuff and it certainly isn't pro.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Mar 4 2005, 11:23 AM

...One was abused at church and quit, got bitter and let it grow into a full blown apostasy. It wasn't the gospel at first that bothered him....

I just re-read Mr. Tolworthy's reasons for leaving and I wouldn't characterize the catalyst for leaving as 'abuse' - I would say he had a request from his church, the church chose not to respect his request therefore he had no choice but to stick up for himself and end the relationship.

I knew the mr. tolworthy during the months prior to his leaving the church. We had several indepth discussions, and emailed for a while; but maybe you know him better than I do~

Don't know him personally at all but I tend to believe his reasons than hear-say from others.

Why do I think these authors are anti? LOL well I have read their stuff and it certainly isn't pro.

Really? Are your reasons because you don't like what you are reading or because you think they are lying - or maybe something else all together? - please share.

M.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Mar 4 2005, 01:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Mar 4 2005, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 4 2005, 11:23 AM

...One was abused at church and quit, got bitter and let it grow into a full blown apostasy. It wasn't the gospel at first that bothered him....

I just re-read Mr. Tolworthy's reasons for leaving and I wouldn't characterize the catalyst for leaving as 'abuse' - I would say he had a request from his church, the church chose not to respect his request therefore he had no choice but to stick up for himself and end the relationship.

I knew the mr. tolworthy during the months prior to his leaving the church. We had several indepth discussions, and emailed for a while; but maybe you know him better than I do~

Don't know him personally at all but I tend to believe his reasons than hear-say from others.

Why do I think these authors are anti? LOL well I have read their stuff and it certainly isn't pro.

Really? Are your reasons because you don't like what you are reading or because you think they are lying - or maybe something else all together? - please share.

M.

1st....I don't care what tolworthy put out for the world to read, it isn't the whole story. Seldom do disaffected saints tell it like it really is.

2nd....I don't care who you chose to believe. I know what I know.

3rd.....I have read all of it before from different sources and one can put the same information in a positive light or they can use it to try and discredit the church. These used it to discredit the church.

4th.....with all your getting ~ get understanding. This seems to always be lacking in the anti-approach to anything.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Mar 4 2005, 02:11 PM

1st....I don't care what tolworthy put out for the world to read, it isn't the whole story. Seldom do disaffected saints tell it like it really is.

Right - he left the "true church" therefore he is of the "devil" now. I keep forgetting that.

3rd.....I have read all of it before from different sources and one can put the same information in a positive light or they can use it to try and discredit the church. These used it to discredit the church.

I'm going to assume you are talking about these so-called "anti" authors. So if the hardships of polygamy are not written in that happy-go-lucky flavour then it must be "anti". Nothing terrible or real every happens to real people in the Mormon church, everyone lives such care-free lives with no concerns. If it's not faith-promoting, it's crap, right?

4th.....with all your getting ~ get understanding. This seems to always be lacking in the anti-approach to anything.

So are you calling me "anti" now? Because I am non-LDS and don't see all Mormon history through rose-coloured glasses? I am far from "anti". I enjoy history and sometimes history isn't all positive, sometimes it's nasty - that's life!

M.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Mar 4 2005, 03:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Mar 4 2005, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 4 2005, 02:11 PM

1st....I don't care what tolworthy put out for the world to read, it isn't the whole story. Seldom do disaffected saints tell it like it really is.

Right -

3rd.....I have read all of it before from different sources and one can put the same information in a positive light or they can use it to try and discredit the church. These used it to discredit the church.

I'm going to assume you are talking about these so-called "anti" authors. So if the hardships of polygamy are not written in that happy-go-lucky flavour then it must be "anti". Nothing terrible or real every happens to real people in the Mormon church, everyone lives such care-free lives with no concerns.

4th.....with all your getting ~ get understanding. This seems to always be lacking in the anti-approach to anything.

So are you calling me "anti" now? Because I am non-LDS and don't see all Mormon history through rose-coloured glasses? I am far from "anti". I enjoy history and sometimes history isn't all positive, sometimes it's nasty - that's life!

M.

Maureen,

you seem to have a lot of issues and I really don't want to deal with them.

before you ask what issues:

1. Over dramatizing and villanizing everything I say. For instance:

<span style='color:red'>he left the "true church" therefore he is of the "devil" now. I keep forgetting that.

If it's not faith-promoting, it's crap, right?

So are you calling me "anti" now?

really Maureen grow up!

[Lindy]

ChicagoGuy~

Sorry if I wasn't myself in the beginning of this thread

I just wanted to say a couple of more little things.....faith is a very precious part of who we are, as individuals, as family, as a church. What is important to me about religion, might not be important to you, or to anyone else. I have family members who are agnostic, an old boyfriend who is Jewish, and one of my best friends is Baptist; I have discussed faith and religion with each of them over the years, and have gained a lot in those discussions. I also gain a lot reading posts by Jason, Jenda and any of the other posters who are not LDS.....I appreciate them for who they are, not what they believe. My heart goes out to those who feel betrayed by their faith.....I know it has to be hard, and it saddens my heart that people have to feel the pain....I know it's real heartache....and not just talk.

Don't give up on faith in something good....without faith life just wouldn't be worth much at all. You have a wife you love, don't let your declining faith destroy everything you have ever felt real in your life. SF said

Find your Faith again and build upon one thing and then another even if it is your faith that the sun will be there again in the morning.

wise words from a wise woman. I love that statement, to find something to believe in, and build upon that. Sometimes starting at the bottom and taking babysteps will get you farther than trying tto go too far too soon. I really hope I make some kind of sense

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Mar 4 2005, 07:05 PM

Maureen,

you seem to have a lot of issues and I really don't want to deal with them.

before you ask what issues:

1. Over dramatizing and villanizing everything I say. For instance:

he left the "true church" therefore he is of the "devil" now. I keep forgetting that.

If it's not faith-promoting, it's crap, right?

So are you calling me "anti" now?

really Maureen grow up!

Amillia - It appears I have touched a nerve. You don't seem to be denying that that is how you see things. If I'm wrong on your attitude toward what you view as "anti" then set me straight.

To get back on track though, this thread is really for ChicagoGuy. It's not clear if he has been back since he has not responded yet. But hopefully, he'll be able to take away some advice from the posters here.

M.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Mar 5 2005, 01:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Mar 5 2005, 01:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 4 2005, 07:05 PM

Maureen,

you seem to have a lot of issues and I really don't want to deal with them.

before you ask what issues:

1. Over dramatizing and villanizing everything I say. For instance:

he left the "true church" therefore he is of the "devil" now. I keep forgetting that.

If it's not faith-promoting, it's crap, right?

So are you calling me "anti" now?

really Maureen grow up!

Amillia - It appears I have touched a nerve. You don't seem to be denying that that is how you see things. If I'm wrong on your attitude toward what you view as "anti" then set me straight.

To get back on track though, this thread is really for ChicagoGuy. It's not clear if he has been back since he has not responded yet. But hopefully, he'll be able to take away some advice from the posters here.

M.

Apparently you are the one whose nerve was touched here. You are making stuff up again and putting your slant to it ~ just to be able to have something to say:

<span style='color:red'>You don't seem to be denying that that is how you see things.

<span style='color:blue'>If I'm wrong on your attitude toward what you view as "anti" then set me straight.</span>

With a common tagged on ~

As for ChicagoGuy, I hope he is busy reading whyprophet.com. :)

[Jenda]

This is getting a bit too personal. If you have anything further to say to each other, take it to PM, or it will be deleted.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 5 2005, 02:12 PM

This is getting a bit too personal. If you have anything further to say to each other, take it to PM, or it will be deleted.

Thanks Jenda! B)

[Guest JRodan]

Originally posted by Amillia+Mar 5 2005, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Mar 5 2005, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2005, 02:12 PM

This is getting a bit too personal.  If you have anything further to say to each other, take it to PM, or it will be deleted.

Thanks Jenda! B)

Sheesh... just when it was getting fun. Seems to be the way of this board... or bored.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by JRodan+Mar 5 2005, 04:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JRodan @ Mar 5 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Mar 5 2005, 03:30 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2005, 02:12 PM

This is getting a bit too personal.  If you have anything further to say to each other, take it to PM, or it will be deleted.

Thanks Jenda! B)

Sheesh... just when it was getting fun. Seems to be the way of this board... or bored.

Sorry, JRodan. I don't come here to read bickering between two individuals, and, most likely, neither do many other people.

But if you want to rumble, I'll meet you outside in the parking lot in a half hour.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 5 2005, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 5 2005, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -JRodan@Mar 5 2005, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Mar 5 2005, 03:30 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2005, 02:12 PM

This is getting a bit too personal.  If you have anything further to say to each other, take it to PM, or it will be deleted.

Thanks Jenda! B)

Sheesh... just when it was getting fun. Seems to be the way of this board... or bored.

Sorry, JRodan. I don't come here to read bickering between two individuals, and, most likely, neither do many other people.

But if you want to rumble, I'll meet you outside in the parking lot in a half hour.

LOL.....can I watch...can I can I please?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by JRodan+Mar 5 2005, 05:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JRodan @ Mar 5 2005, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Mar 5 2005, 03:30 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2005, 02:12 PM

This is getting a bit too personal.  If you have anything further to say to each other, take it to PM, or it will be deleted.

Thanks Jenda! B)

Sheesh... just when it was getting fun. Seems to be the way of this board... or bored.

Well for Maureen's and Chicago's sake I will put up a scripture to ponder:

D&C 121:

11 And they who do charge thee with transgression, their hope shall be blasted, and their prospects shall melt away as the hoar frost melteth before the burning rays of the rising sun;

12 And also that God hath set his hand and seal to change the times and seasons, and to blind their minds, that they may not understand his marvelous workings; that he may prove them also and take them in their own craftiness;

13 Also because their hearts are corrupted, and the things which they are willing to bring upon others, and love to have others suffer, may come upon themselves to the very uttermost;

14 That they may be disappointed also, and their hopes may be cut off;

15 And not many years hence, that they and their posterity shall be swept from under heaven, saith God, that not one of them is left to stand by the wall.

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who aswear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the bordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.

24 Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all;

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Mar 6 2005, 07:36 AM

Well for Maureen's and Chicago's sake I will put up a scripture to ponder:...

Two can play at that game:

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye,' while there is a beam in your own? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Mar 7 2005, 10:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Mar 7 2005, 10:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 6 2005, 07:36 AM

Well for Maureen's and Chicago's sake I will put up a scripture to ponder:...

Two can play at that game:

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye,' while there is a beam in your own? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

Basically that is what my scripture was teaching ~ don't judge JS or any of the church leaders and members ~ unless you have walked a mile in their shoes.

And since JS isn't here to defend himself ~ I think he and the church history should be ~ hands off ~ territory.

[Outshined]

This turned into a Maureen/Amillia conversation; Chicagoguy sort of faded away...

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Amillia+Mar 7 2005, 10:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Mar 7 2005, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Maureen@Mar 7 2005, 10:51 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 6 2005, 07:36 AM

Well for Maureen's and Chicago's sake I will put up a scripture to ponder:...

Two can play at that game:

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye,' while there is a beam in your own? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

Basically that is what my scripture was teaching ~ don't judge JS or any of the church leaders and members ~ unless you have walked a mile in their shoes.

And since JS isn't here to defend himself ~ I think he and the church history should be ~ hands off ~ territory.

Nice idea, but unworkable in reality. If we took a hands-off policy towards every historical figure who wasn't around to defend himself, we couldn't discuss history at all.

Joe McCarthy isn't around to defend himself, but it doesn't stop him from getting plenty of well-deserved retrospective kicks. If you take it upon yourself to be a big mover in history, you assume the risk that people won't let your memory rest in peace. If you want to be safely forgotten, keep your head down, stay anonymous, and don't do anything momentous.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Mar 7 2005, 10:35 AM

And since JS isn't here to defend himself ~ I think he and the church history should be ~ hands off ~ territory.

I'm going to agree with PD here. And if JS has the ability to see what's going on down here, he's probably loving all the attention.

I would like to recommend a book for you to read Amillia but I hesitate for reasons that are obvious - but I am brave, so here it goes:

An Abundant Life: The Memoirs of Hugh B. Brown - in particular the last Chapter:

A Final Testimony- an excerpt:

<span style='color:blue'>...When we come into a new field of research that will challenge our due and honest consideration, we should be warned against coming too quickly to a conclusion, of forming a decision too hastily. We should be scientific -- that is, open-minded, approaching new problems without prejudice, deferring a decision until all the facts are in. Some say that the open-minded leave room for doubt. But I believe we should doubt some of the things we hear. Doubt has a place if it can stir in one an interest to go out and find the truth for one's self.

I should like to awaken in everyone a desire to investigate, to make an independent study of religion, and to know for themselves whether or not the teachings of the Mormon church are true. I should like to see everyone prepared to defend the religion of his or her parents, not because it was the religion of our fathers and mothers but because they have found it to be the true religion. If one approaches it with an open mind, with a desire to know the truth, and if one questions with a sincere heart what one hears from time to time, he or she will be on the road to growth and service. There are altogether too many people in the world who are willing to accept as true whatever is printed in a book or delivered from a pulpit. Their faith never goes below the surface soil of authority. I plead with everyone I meet that they may drive their faith down through that soil and get hold of the solid truth, that they may be able to withstand the winds and storm of indecision and of doubt, of opposition and persecution. Then, and only then, will we be able to defend our religion successfully. When I speak of defending our religion, I do not mean such defense as an army makes on the battlefield but the defense of a clean and upright and virtuous life lived in harmony with an intelligent belief and understanding of the gospel...

I have been very grateful that the freedom, dignity, and integrity of the individual are basic in church doctrine. We are free to think and express our opinions in the church. Fear will not stifle thought. God himself refuses to trammel free agency even though its exercise sometimes teaches painful lessons. Both creative science and revealed religion find their fullest and truest expression in the climate of freedom.

As we all proceed to make our individual "declarations of independence," I hope we can distinguish between liberty and license, that we can realize that freedom is only a blessing if it is accompanied by wisdom and intelligence. At the same time, we all need to resist the down-drag of mental laziness which sometimes leads to the premature hardening of the intellectual arteries. And I would especially urge all of us to avoid sluggishness of spirit, which is the worst kind of lethargy. Some people are phlegmatic to a degree that would make a turtle seem intolerably vivacious. I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent -- if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression.

...Even in our own church men and women take issue with one another and contend for their own interpretations. This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences. We should all be interested in academic research. We must go out on the research front and continue to explore the vast unknown. We should be in the forefront of learning in all fields, for revelation does not come only through the prophet of God nor only directly from heaven in visions or dreams. Revelation may come in the laboratory, out of the test tube, out of the thinking mind and the inquiring soul, out of search and research and prayer and inspiration.

We should be dauntless in our pursuit of truth and resist all demands for unthinking conformity. No one would have us become mere tape recorders of other people's thoughts. We should be modest and teachable and seek to know the truth by study and faith. There have been times when progress was halted by thought control. Tolerance and truth demand that all be heard and that competing ideas be tested against each other so that the best, which might not always be our own, can prevail...

...One of the most important things in the world is freedom of the mind; from this all other freedoms spring. Such freedom is necessarily dangerous, for one cannot think right without running the risk of thinking wrong, but generally more thinking is the antidote for the evils that spring from wrong thinking. More thinking is required, and we should all exercise our God-given right to think and be unafraid to express our opinions, with proper respect for those to whom we talk and proper acknowledgment of our own shortcomings.

We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything. In this age of speed there seems to be little time for meditation.

And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile; then one's logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his or her spirit, because real conversion must come from within...

M.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Mar 7 2005, 02:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Mar 7 2005, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Mar 7 2005, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by -Maureen@Mar 7 2005, 10:51 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 6 2005, 07:36 AM

Well for Maureen's and Chicago's sake I will put up a scripture to ponder:...

Two can play at that game:

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye,' while there is a beam in your own? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

Basically that is what my scripture was teaching ~ don't judge JS or any of the church leaders and members ~ unless you have walked a mile in their shoes.

And since JS isn't here to defend himself ~ I think he and the church history should be ~ hands off ~ territory.

Nice idea, but unworkable in reality. If we took a hands-off policy towards every historical figure who wasn't around to defend himself, we couldn't discuss history at all.

Joe McCarthy isn't around to defend himself, but it doesn't stop him from getting plenty of well-deserved retrospective kicks. If you take it upon yourself to be a big mover in history, you assume the risk that people won't let your memory rest in peace. If you want to be safely forgotten, keep your head down, stay anonymous, and don't do anything momentous.

IOW,

don't do anything worth while. It has been said that those who are busy doing good works will get the most opposition because Satan doesn't want good works performed and if he can't stop them, he will discolor them so they won't be accepted for what they are....

My husband was once told at work to do as little as possible and keep a low profile and he wouldn't have any problems.

Trouble was, my husband liked to work hard and to do exceptional work and he received a lot of recognition for it until the underlayer became jealous and tried to put him up on charges of theft ~

Of course the truth became known and the real theives were caught ~ but it was terribly stressful for a while.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Amillia,

Exactly. I wasn't suggesting that doing nothing worthwhile is a worthwhile thing to do. I was saying that part of the package for doing worthwhile things is having your conduct noticed and contemplated by others, including future generations to whom you won't be able to defend yourself.

Ultimately, you don't need to defend yourself to people who follow you on the earth. At that point, you only have one Judge who matters. In doing your best to do worthwhile things on the earth, your eye should be on that judgement rather than on that of history; a person who goes around intentionally trying to make his name for the history books "has his reward" -- and typically makes a fool of himself.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 8 2005, 01:09 PM

Amillia,

Exactly. I wasn't suggesting that doing nothing worthwhile is a worthwhile thing to do. I was saying that part of the package for doing worthwhile things is having your conduct noticed and contemplated by others, including future generations to whom you won't be able to defend yourself.

Ultimately, you don't need to defend yourself to people who follow you on the earth. At that point, you only have one Judge who matters. In doing your best to do worthwhile things on the earth, your eye should be on that judgement rather than on that of history; a person who goes around intentionally trying to make his name for the history books "has his reward" -- and typically makes a fool of himself.

I agree.

It is interesting to note that all of JS great works are totally ignored by those who find fault their only truths. :)

[Lindy]

It is interesting to note that all of JS great works are totally ignored by those who find fault their only truths.

Great statement Amillia, so very true that so many truths are ignored.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Mar 8 2005, 11:10 PM

It is interesting to note that all of JS great works are totally ignored by those who find fault their only truths. :)

Amillia - I've noticed you make a lot of general statements without any substance to back it up. So for something more positive here's a chance for you to show me (or all the board) what those great works of JS's are. I am just curious as to what your opinion might be in regards to these great works. I have no intention of disagreeing with your opinion, I'm just wondering if you can actually add some substance to your general statement of great works.

To help you out, some definitions of GREAT are:

*Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent: a great crisis.

*Of outstanding significance or importance: a great work of art.

*Powerful; influential: one of the great nations of the West

*Eminent; distinguished: a great leader.

Please and Thank you and Good Luck!

M.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Mar 9 2005, 04:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Mar 9 2005, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 8 2005, 11:10 PM

It is interesting to note that all of JS great works are totally ignored by those who find fault their only truths. :)

Amillia - I've noticed you make a lot of general statements without any substance to back it up. So for something more positive here's a chance for you to show me (or all the board) what those great works of JS's are. I am just curious as to what your opinion might be in regards to these great works. I have no intention of disagreeing with your opinion, I'm just wondering if you can actually add some substance to your general statement of great works.

To help you out, some definitions of GREAT are:

*Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent: a great crisis.

*Of outstanding significance or importance: a great work of art.

*Powerful; influential: one of the great nations of the West

*Eminent; distinguished: a great leader.

Please and Thank you and Good Luck!

M.

Receiving of revelations, which are totally profound such as are found in the D&C.

Translating the BofM through the Spiritual Gift from God.

Living through endless torment, and persecution and staying true.

Just for starters. BTW I really don't want to answer your posts.