How To Be An Antimormon

[Snow]

A typical antiMormon tactic is to take some thing, some reality, and then falsely claim the exact opposite about Mormons. For example, a typical attack on Mormons is that they are uninformed about their own faith, about their own doctrine.... Well - are they?

A recent study seems to indicate the exact opposite, especially in relation to their Protestant counterparts:

"I'm not saying they're all perfect," adds the study's lead author, UNC sociology professor Christian Smith. "I'm not trying to idealize Mormon kids." But when belief and "social outcomes" are measured, he says, "Mormon kids tend to be on top."

      The four-year study included interviews with 3,370 randomly selected teenagers, ages 13 to 17, in 45 states, and follow-up face-to-face, in-depth, interviews with 267 of them. There were questions about church attendance, scripture reading, the importance of faith in making daily decisions, as well as questions about "risky" behaviors such as pot smoking, lying and drinking.

      The survey relied on self-reporting, a fact that could conceivably skew the data. But researcher Bartkowski says he trusts the answers.

      "I had kids admit all kinds of behavior," he said. "And where Mormon teens are concerned, one of the principles of the faith is honesty."

      Mormon teens were found more likely to:

      • hold religious beliefs similar to their parents' (73 percent).

      • attend religious services once a week (43 percent compared to 26 percent for Conservative Protestants, who, on the other hand, were slightly more likely than Mormons to attend church more than once a week).

      • rate the importance of religious faith in shaping their daily life as "extremely important" (43 percent).

      • engage in fasting or some other form of self-denial (68 percent).

      • have no or few doubts about religious beliefs (91 percent).

      Oddly, one of the few areas where LDS youth didn't outrank their peers was "belief in God" — 84 percent said they believe, compared with 97 percent black Protestants, 94 percent conservative Protestants and 86 percent mainline Protestants.

      "We were startled how inarticulate most teens are about what they believe," Smith said. "Even evangelical teens had trouble talking about who Jesus might be." Mormon teens, he says, "tended to be more articulate" about the specifics of their doctrines.

      The researchers also found that although most teens have a conventional approach to religion, "there's not a lot of spiritual seeking" across all denominations, Smith says.

      "Soul Searching" discusses risky behaviors, grades and relationship to parents but does not break these down according to denomination. However, in an e-mail response Monday, researcher Vaisey supplied data showing that compared to other teens, fewer Mormons:

      • engaged in sexual intercourse (12 percent);

      • have ever smoked pot (15 percent);

      • drink alcohol a few times a year (10 percent);

      • watched an X-rated or pornographic program in the past year (15 percent).

      "LDS affiliation and practice tends to have a protective effect," says Bartkowski, a Mississippi State University sociology professor who is also a Mormon. "It probably has to do with daily religious training through high school. . . . Daily engagement with people of their own faith, that's an amazing corrective to tip the balance toward a parental role model instead of a peer role model."

[USNationalist]

"And ye shall know them by their fruits"

I don't see any reason to refute that study. And that kind of stuff is the main reason i refuse to condemn the LDS faith. My opinion, mormons are in for a surprise when they die, heaven- but a surprise none the less. While i know you mormon folk don't take much comfort in that or even think much of it- its better then me saying you will burn in hell for being blasphemous heathons.

...it is right?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Mar 16 2005, 11:51 AM

"And ye shall know them by their fruits"

I don't see any reason to refute that study. And that kind of stuff is the main reason i refuse to condemn the LDS faith. My opinion, mormons are in for a surprise when they die, heaven- but a surprise none the less. While i know you mormon folk don't take much comfort in that or even think much of it- its better then me saying you will burn in hell for being blasphemous heathons.

...it is right?

Just on observation. Most Christians that I have known (including many LDS) are in for a surprise in the next life, but not for the reason you stated. It do not think G-d has the desire to send his children to Hell that you seem to declar he has. Perhaps we do worship a different G-d but the one I worshp - it is his will to save all mankind not comdemn us to Hell.

But the surprise as I see it is that Most Christians would rather be in a pagan heaven than a Christian one. For that reason they seem to describe heaven in pagan terms rather than Christian terms.

For example look at post I am quoting from. The pagan heaven is exclusive conprised only of those mortals that please the g-ds. And the Christian heaven - according to Jesus - greatness in Christian heaven is measured in service.

Sometimes I think many Christians will not be happy in being heaven when they find out all the others that G-d through his power and the atonement of Christ was able to save.

The Traveler

[Guest TheProudDuck]

My impression is that what most Mormon critics who sniff that Mormons "don't know Mormon doctrine" really mean is that they don't subscribe to the straw-man version of Mormon doctrine the critics have strung together with the goofier rhapsodizing of Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, etc. Actual, core, binding, canonized Mormon doctrine -- the kind the leadership doesn't stuff in a back drawer and say "I don't know we teach that" -- is pretty straightforward, and most Mormons know it a whole lot better than my evangelical mother-in-law, or (from what I can gather) the average attendee of her Saddleback Church knows about consubstantial-trinitarian Christianity.

[Nottingham]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 16 2005, 03:59 PM

".......  Actual, core, binding, canonized Mormon doctrine -- the kind the leadership doesn't stuff in a back drawer and say "I don't know we teach that" -- is pretty straightforward, and most Mormons know it a whole lot better than my evangelical mother-in-law..."

The "core", I suppose, can be recited from The Articles of Faith.

Throw in The Ten Commandments, and one has a good idea of Judeo-Christianity,

as a whole.

Note: The one Article of Faith that I, myself, reject is the one that talks about being

subject to kings and rulers: that's a big red flag, in my book!

(It is said that Heber Grant told the 'German Saints' to continue to follow Hitler,

during the Second World War, instead of resisting in any way, like the French

Partisans did, with their well-known French Resistance. Apparently, Heber

got them to "obey" by reminding them of their belief in A of F #12).

And, thus, the Germans believed in "obeying....the law of [their] land", under

the Third Reich!

Personally, I admire the courage of the French, instead!

[Nottingham]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 16 2005, 12:54 AM

A typical antiMormon tactic is to take some thing, some reality, and then falsely claim the exact opposite about Mormons. For example, a typical attack on Mormons is that they are uninformed about their own faith, about their own doctrine.... Well - are they?

A recent study seems to indicate the exact opposite, especially in relation to their Protestant counterparts:

"I'm not saying they're all perfect," adds the study's lead author, UNC sociology professor Christian Smith. "I'm not trying to idealize Mormon kids." But when belief and "social outcomes" are measured, he says, "Mormon kids tend to be on top."

      The four-year study included interviews with 3,370 randomly selected teenagers, ages 13 to 17, in 45 states, and follow-up face-to-face, in-depth, interviews with 267 of them. There were questions about church attendance, scripture reading, the importance of faith in making daily decisions, as well as questions about "risky" behaviors such as pot smoking, lying and drinking.

      The survey relied on self-reporting, a fact that could conceivably skew the data. But researcher Bartkowski says he trusts the answers.

      "I had kids admit all kinds of behavior," he said. "And where Mormon teens are concerned, one of the principles of the faith is honesty."

      Mormon teens were found more likely to:

      • hold religious beliefs similar to their parents' (73 percent).

      • attend religious services once a week (43 percent compared to 26 percent for Conservative Protestants, who, on the other hand, were slightly more likely than Mormons to attend church more than once a week).

      • rate the importance of religious faith in shaping their daily life as "extremely important" (43 percent).

      • engage in fasting or some other form of self-denial (68 percent).

      • have no or few doubts about religious beliefs (91 percent).

      Oddly, one of the few areas where LDS youth didn't outrank their peers was "belief in God" — 84 percent said they believe, compared with 97 percent black Protestants, 94 percent conservative Protestants and 86 percent mainline Protestants.

      "We were startled how inarticulate most teens are about what they believe," Smith said. "Even evangelical teens had trouble talking about who Jesus might be." Mormon teens, he says, "tended to be more articulate" about the specifics of their doctrines.

      The researchers also found that although most teens have a conventional approach to religion, "there's not a lot of spiritual seeking" across all denominations, Smith says.

      "Soul Searching" discusses risky behaviors, grades and relationship to parents but does not break these down according to denomination. However, in an e-mail response Monday, researcher Vaisey supplied data showing that compared to other teens, fewer Mormons:

      • engaged in sexual intercourse (12 percent);

      • have ever smoked pot (15 percent);

      • drink alcohol a few times a year (10 percent);

      • watched an X-rated or pornographic program in the past year (15 percent).

      "LDS affiliation and practice tends to have a protective effect," says Bartkowski, a Mississippi State University sociology professor who is also a Mormon. "It probably has to do with daily religious training through high school. . . . Daily engagement with people of their own faith, that's an amazing corrective to tip the balance toward a parental role model instead of a peer role model."

Catchy title.

Rather like Eliza R. Snow writing an article about "How to be a man".

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Nottingham@Mar 17 2005, 06:22 AM

Personally, I admire the courage of the French, instead!

I assume this was sarcasm...

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Outshined+Mar 17 2005, 06:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Outshined @ Mar 17 2005, 06:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Nottingham@Mar 17 2005, 06:22 AM

Personally, I admire the courage of the French, instead!

I assume this was sarcasm...

Yeah -- after the war ended, suddenly EVERYBODY recalled having been in La Resistance. The Montmartre cafes must have been so full of intense men in berets plotting to blow up Boche barracks that there couldn't possibly have been room for French putains to fraternize with the occupiers.

The French, by and large, collaborated the Germans' brains out during the occupation. Only a tiny minority were involved in the Resistance. Given the efficiency of the Gestapo, it's hard to blame them -- but it is a little hard to take the myth of a widespread resistance to Nazism.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Mar 17 2005, 11:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Mar 17 2005, 11:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Outshined@Mar 17 2005, 06:06 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Nottingham@Mar 17 2005, 06:22 AM

Personally, I admire the courage of the French, instead!

I assume this was sarcasm...

Yeah -- after the war ended, suddenly EVERYBODY recalled having been in La Resistance. The Montmartre cafes must have been so full of intense men in berets plotting to blow up Boche barracks that there couldn't possibly have been room for French putains to fraternize with the occupiers.

The French, by and large, collaborated the Germans' brains out during the occupation. Only a tiny minority were involved in the Resistance. Given the efficiency of the Gestapo, it's hard to blame them -- but it is a little hard to take the myth of a widespread resistance to Nazism.

It is a little know fact that when the USA enter WWII the first battle we fought was against the French. What happened was the allied forces with US began a campaign in northern Africa, which the French thought belonged to them. When the US forces refused to be under French command in Africa the French attacked the US. As it turned out the French navy had fled France for Africa when the Germans took over and in the 3rd day of fighting a young French Navy officer in essence stood up against French command and almost started a coup in the French Navy. The result was the young officer brought about a cease-fire and ended up in command of French forces. The young officer has a name we have become to know – Charles DeGall (pardon my spelling).

The Traveler

[pushka]

In your first post you refer to the anti argument that Mormons are uninformed about their faith and doctrines...I was under the impression that they were uninformed about the true history of the church, which antis seem to refer to lots in order to undermine the teachings of JS and BY rather than about the faith and its doctrines...is that not more likely the anti argument?

I am not surprised that Mormon kids are found to be generally less active in smoking pot, drinking etc. as it is taught to them in their 'societies' within the Church anyway...which is good. Perhaps it would be useful for other religions to stress the importance of these doctrines more to their congregations...

[Jason]

A typical antiMormon tactic is to take some thing, some reality, and then falsely claim the exact opposite about Mormons. For example, a typical attack on Mormons is that they are uninformed about their own faith, about their own doctrine.... Well - are they?

I think pushka hit it on the head. Most Mormons are unaware of the changes their church has undergone. This is due to the lack of depth in Sunday Schools generally speaking (except in your ward, Snow ).

As for the "principles" of LDS doctrine, I agree that LDS kids are quite aware of those teachings.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by pushka@Mar 17 2005, 01:02 PM

In your first post you refer to the anti argument that Mormons are uninformed about their faith and doctrines...I was under the impression that they were uninformed about the true history of the church, which antis seem to refer to lots in order to undermine the teachings of JS and BY rather than about the faith and its doctrines...is that not more likely the anti argument?

I am not surprised that Mormon kids are found to be generally less active in smoking pot, drinking etc. as it is taught to them in their 'societies' within the Church anyway...which is good. Perhaps it would be useful for other religions to stress the importance of these doctrines more to their congregations...

Being ignorant of their church's history isn't exclusively a Mormon problem, or even a religious problem. Virtually nobody knows much about history, period, including most college history majors these days. Emphasizing some aspects of history over others happens pretty much across the board.

How many Catholics know much about the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, or Bloody Mary? How many Lutherans know about Luther's anti-Semitism and encouragement of the bloodthirsty suppression of the German Peasants' Revolt? How many Calvinists (Presbyterians, UCC, etc.) know how John Calvin burned Servetus and how many Irish Cromwell's Puritan armies slaughtered? How many Southern Baptists are aware of just how far their church's theology was taken to provide religious support for slavery? (To be fair, Brigham Young pretty much echoed those guys.) You want selective knowledge of religious history? I'll see your Zelph the White Lamanite and raise you a whole teetering stack of chips.

[Jason]

PD,

I think the difference in history ignorance is that Mormonism does put forth a fairly unique claim (though Luther did consider himself in much the same light as Smith). If Mormonism was just another protestant sect, nobody would probably care.

I'll see your Zelph the White Lamanite and raise you a whole teetering stack of chips.

Ole Zelph's hardly a serious problem IMO. If I was a busy Mormon apologist, I would be more worried with Smith's planting of the city "Manti" right smack in the middle of Northern Missouri!

[Snow]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 17 2005, 03:41 PM

I think pushka hit it on the head. Most Mormons are unaware of the changes their church has undergone. This is due to the lack of depth in Sunday Schools generally speaking (except in your ward, Snow ).

As for the "principles" of LDS doctrine, I agree that LDS kids are quite aware of those teachings.

Heaven forbids I should teach such stuff in Sunday School. I can only do it in priesthood. Fortunately most enjoy my lessons enough that the Bishop thus far has ignore the few complaints.

...sure, in Mormon history (the non-orthodox side) we all start out as babes fed on milk and increase our knowledge at our own pace and our own choosing but I would wager confidently that the average Mormon knows more about Mormon history than you average mainline Christian knows about Christian history or Protestant about Protestant hx. Course 200 years is a bit easier to learn than 2000 years.

[Snow]

Oh, I see PD has already responded to the point I just made above... and per his usual with more eloquence and aplomb. Sheeze, does he never let up?

PS is aplomb a word?

[Cal]

Snow--I may be wrong, but perhaps one of the reasons Mormons, even in general, seem to know more about their religion is that there is simply MORE to know. We have a distinct history we share with very few others, we have 4 cannons of scripture instead of one, and many of our doctrines are so distinct from other christian religions that the differences are easily identified and remembered. After all how does a Baptist kid distinguish his faith from, say a Congregationalist? Is the distinction all that great?

[Snow]

Cal,

Well I am not sure the Baptist would agree, there is an awful lot of Christian hx over the last 2k years though the history of individual denominations may not be so great, though I agree, if you are into history, Mormonism is a fascinating opportunity.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 17 2005, 06:25 PM

Oh, I see PD has already responded to the point I just made above... and per his usual with more eloquence and aplomb. Sheeze, does he never let up?

PS is aplomb a word?

aplomb n. Self-confident assurance; poise.

Dunno about "sheeze" though.

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Mar 17 2005, 05:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Mar 17 2005, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 17 2005, 06:25 PM

PS is aplomb a word?

aplomb n. Self-confident assurance; poise.

Dunno about "sheeze" though.

Oh, I thought it meant crass

crass     

adj.

So crude and unrefined as to be lacking in discrimination and sensibility.

[pushka]

Snow and PD...I agree with you that many Christians in other denomenations(sp?) Catholic, Protestant or other, probably do not know a great deal of their history too...However, the difference that I was pointing out was that many non LDS believe that the whole foundation of the Church was built around lies and fantasy...

As far as the RCC is concerned, it is pretty clear from what I have learned from Jason and other Christians I've met, and from the reading I have done since, that it broke away from Christ's original church around 1054, and so might not be considered the true church any longer...that is why I wanted to learn more about the Orthodox church and whether it had stayed true, over the last 2000 years or so, to Christ's original 'Catholic' (meaning universal) church.

We all know that Protestant churches were offshoots from the RCC church's CofE church which was 'created' via Henry VIII, so cannot be the true churches...

Sorry, I seem to have gone a little off topic there, but I was just trying to explain why it was so different for members of the LDS church to be aware of their beginnings, in order to know whether or not their doctrines are based on reality or not...

I tend to believe that all Christians, who follow their religions and do no harm to others, will be saved, as long as they repent of their sins and do not repeat them if possible...