Terri Shiavo

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Mar 30 2005, 01:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Mar 30 2005, 01:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--DisRuptive1@Mar 29 2005, 08:03 PM

Bulemics get some nutrition however.  Their stomach does absorb a little bit when it hits their stomach and not everything comes out.  Anorexics barely put anything in.

That's what I thought (based on information from my very medically informed wife). Terri's weight didn't seem particularly low for her height.

Very Good Point PD.

Sometimes it is just so easy to overlook the obvious.

Some of these allegations seemed to only come from the Schiavo's like this one and her death wishes. I have felt that both of these were only self serving to Michael.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 29 2005, 05:58 PM

The funny thing is, her husband insists on the autopsy...

Maybe and maybe not... Could it be the Florida Law states that before any cremation can take place that an autopsy is required first?

Could be, but no, it's not.

If Terri receives an autopsy from a reliable coronor, who has not been bought off, I wonder if Michael will be available for questioning.

Bullcrap Alert!

Now you are INVENTING, read lying, that Michael Schiavo will, might or would bribe the coroner and that the coroner will, might, would take the bribe.

Again, if you have to fabricate to make a point, your point, obviously, ain't no good.

Here is my INVENTION as you call it.

http://www.theempirejournal.com/329051_ind...dical_exami.htm

Did I fabricate this?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Idacat+Mar 30 2005, 12:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Mar 30 2005, 12:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 01:02 AM

I have been told that when a person dies in a way such as Terri the brain is the last thing to go because it is the control center of us. Do you believe this to be true?

I can answer this easily............not in Terri's case. Unless you are talking about her brain stem or lower brain, then it is true, but she still has no pain or awareness whatsoever.

We are all used to hearing about people who are "brain dead" and must be placed on ventilators because they are unable to breathe on their own. These people have damage to the lower brain, or the brain stem, the part of the brain that controls breathing and other automatic functions. This part of Terri's brain is still there and functioning, but her cerebral cortex, the "higher brain" is the part that was destroyed by lack of oxygen and is, quite literally, gone, along with all the things that make you, and I, and Terri, human and alive.

I think further brain scans, such as MRI and PET were not pursued because they'd be pointless; the CT shows empty space where the cortex should be, there is no liklihood that an MRI would show brain mass in the space that the CT showed as empty. And PET scans measure cortical activity. No cerebral cortex, no cortical activity.

FWIW, it seems at this point, in my mind, to have been some huge and awful cosmic dirty trick that left Terri as she is today, when, had it only been a different part of her brain starved for oxygen first, or if she had not received first aid as quickly as she did, her brain stem, lower brain, would have been affected, she would not have been able to be revived, nor would she have had to languish in this ghastly state between life and death for all these years.

If she has no pain whatsoever, why are they giving her morphine every couple of hours around the clock?

Not sure where you are getting your information, but all the patients I have take care of that are really in PVS's (caused by lack of oxygen) required ventilators.

[Idacat]

Here are some great informative links just in case anyone is interested in discussing this case at a level above unsubstantiated gossip and innuendo:

Terri's CT; this is from a medical ethics site

Normal CT for comparison, showing the detail missing in Terri's scan

Good starting place source link with links to ALL depositions and other legal documents and court rulings

Summary timeline

Nurse's affadavit dismissed by court.

[DisRuptive1]

I'm curious, is there anyone here that would choose to keep the feeding tube in assuming they were in Terri's position? And if not, then why would you think that Terri, herself, would want to. And remember, even if she can think, she hasn't been able to do anything for the past 15 years. Just watch people do stuff with her and not be able to give them any kind of sign that she can think. She must be pretty freakin' bored right now.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 30 2005, 08:06 AM

If she has no pain whatsoever, why are they giving her morphine every couple of hours around the clock?

Not sure where you are getting your information, but all the patients I have take care of that are really in PVS's (caused by lack of oxygen) required ventilators.

She is not being given morphine around the clock, is not on a morphine pump. As I recall, and I heard this on mainstream news broadcasts, probably NBC or MSNBC, she has received a small amount of morphine twice since the feeding tube was removed. I don't know why she received even that; perhaps so that her caregivers would not later be accused of allowing her to suffer without morphine.

PVS would not require a ventilator except for two reasons: if the brain stem were compromised instead of or in addition to the cerebral cortex, or is artificial ventilation were required during a bout of pneumonia. As you may have noticed, Terri does have an open tracheostomy. There are probably thousands of people in PVS's who do not require artificial ventilation, this would depend on which part of the brain was affected; Terri's brain stem is intact, a sort of freaky fluke of fate, IMO. And, people whose brain stem is affected are not usually said to be in a PVS, but fall into the category of "brain dead"; their brain is incapable of generating the necessary impulses to sustain life in terms of breathing and automatic functions.

More on the pain issue. KSL had a physician on the noon news the other day, someone whose specialty is terminal/hospice care who explained the process of "starvation". Even in cognizant individuals the end stage is preceded by ketosis which may produce a state of euphoria and well being (and, I have been there, this is true)which is followed by the release of endorphans in the brain, which are a natural tranquilizer/sedative/analgesic. I do know a few people who fast for extreme periods of time for spiritual reasons and describe and eleven day fast as a great natural "high", however strange this sounds to those of us who have never done this and are not likely to try it.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 30 2005, 01:47 AM

That's what I thought (based on information from my very medically informed wife). Terri's weight didn't seem particularly low for her height.

Not at the time of her incident, but prior to that her weight had always been a problem; in excess of 200 lbs as an adult. She lost this weight and apparently maintained the loss by purging and was also know that hyperhydrate, which can affect electrolyte balance as certainly as can dehydration.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 07:23 AM

Sometimes it is just so easy to overlook the obvious.

Some of these allegations seemed to only come from the Schiavo's like this one and her death wishes. I have felt that both of these were only self serving to Michael.

Terri's bulemia was well documented by her private physician well before her cardiac incident. Michael Schiavo's malpractice suit was brought against these physicians on the basis that their treatment of the condition was not adequate. And, he won the suit. So, the bulemia is not a matter of hearsay or propaganda originating with Michael Schiavo.

Nor are Terri's statements regarding her wish to not be kept alive in a very incapacitated state; there were several witnesses who heard these statements and testified in court, under oath, to them. This is part of the court record.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Idacat+Mar 30 2005, 01:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Mar 30 2005, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 07:23 AM

Sometimes it is just so easy to overlook the obvious.

Some of these allegations seemed to only come from the Schiavo's like this one and her death wishes. I have felt that both of these were only self serving to Michael.

Terri's bulemia was well documented by her private physician well before her cardiac incident. Michael Schiavo's malpractice suit was brought against these physicians on the basis that their treatment of the condition was not adequate. And, he won the suit. So, the bulemia is not a matter of hearsay or propaganda originating with Michael Schiavo.

Nor are Terri's statements regarding her wish to not be kept alive in a very incapacitated state; there were several witnesses who heard these statements and testified in court, under oath, to them. This is part of the court record.

You have facts that I am hearing for the first time about her documented bulimia do you also have links to this information?

Yes, I have heard that those who tell of her death wishes have the last name of Shiavo. Where is this court record so that I may read it?

[Marsha]

The latest reports are that Terri's parents may, just may, get the panel of Judges in Atlanta to reverse the decision to reinsert the feeding tube. This going back and forth, take it out, put it in is getting to be a bit un-nerving. Let the poor woman die in peace. What are they going to do, reinsert it for another couple of years to only take it out again. This is a vicious circle that NO ONE should have to endure.

I am 100% with Snow. My spouse will make any and ALL decisions about my well being should I not be able to. NOT my kids or Mother. I wouldn't want to put them thru something like this, not for a minute, let alone 15 + years.

Marsha

[Marsha]

Just updated, Federals courts reject Terri's parents request.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 02:21 PM

You have facts that I am hearing for the first time about her documented bulimia do you also have links to this information?

Yes, I have heard that those who tell of her death wishes have the last name of Shiavo. Where is this court record so that I may read it?

I posted several links in a previous post, and there are links within those links (summary and timeline) to virtually every court document and action, in order of sequence, also detailing the actual timeline of Terri's medical treatment including intensive specialized therapies and electrode implantation early on prior to knowledge or understanding of the severity of her deficit.

Most of this, including the fact that there were non familial witnesses to Terri's expression of the fact that she would not want to be artificially sustained, and that she was bulemic, have also been referred to in mainstream media broadcasts and publications through the years and months this case has gone on since it was first presented as a Dateline segment almost ten years ago.. This is not secret or privileged information and you don't have to be a rocket, or any other kind of scientist to understand it, you only have to get your information from sites with as much objectivity as possible instead of politically or religiously motivated "blogs" dead set to damn Michael Schiavo in the face of not only evidence, but a huge body of court decisions made according to the rule of law, to the contrary.

Point in case (which I already mentioned): the malpractice case was about Terri's doctor's negligence in not more aggessively treating her bulemia, which Michael Schiavo won. This alone would indicate that Terri's bulemia is established fact and not speculation. I don't believe I have ever heard anyone question the reality of Terri's bulemia before.

One of the things that bothers me the very most when observing discussions about this case is that people are much more willing to believe things like the fired nurse's affadavit, the ex girlfriend's deposition,both dismissed aas whithout merit in a court of law, and other hearsay, gossip, and downright libel and slander than they are to actually look at the facts from a viewpoint more objective than Hannity and Colmes and Operation Rescue, the latter of which has so co opted the Schindlers themselves, and used them as pawns, that the Schindlers have gone from the confused, grieving parents on the Larry King Show five or ten years ago to the figureheads of a legal and media circus.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Ida,

Terri's bulemia was well documented by her private physician well before her cardiac incident. Michael Schiavo's malpractice suit was brought against these physicians on the basis that their treatment of the condition was not adequate.

Point in case (which I already mentioned): the malpractice case was about Terri's doctor's negligence in not more aggessively treating her bulemia, which Michael Schiavo won. This alone would indicate that Terri's bulemia is established fact and not speculation. I don't believe I have ever heard anyone question the reality of Terri's bulemia before.

You sure about that? My understanding was that Schiavo's malpractice suit was for failure to diagnose the bulimia, (see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-...867205,00.html) which doesn't quite jive with the condition being "well documented ... well before her cardiac incident." Do you have a link stating otherwise?

Here's your own link at http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage...e.html#timeline (see the January 1993 timeline entry): "Michael recovers $1 million settlement for medical malpractice claim involving Terri's care; jury had ruled in Michael's favor on allegations Terri's doctors failed to diagnose her bulimia, which led to her heart failure; case settled while on appeal."

[Guest TheProudDuck]

were non familial witnesses to Terri's expression of the fact that she would not want to be artificially sustained

Again, you sure you got those facts right? My understanding was that the witnesses were Michael Schiavo's brother and sister-in-law.

[DisRuptive1]

In-law? Blood relative of Terri?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Mar 30 2005, 05:39 PM

In-law? Blood relative of Terri?

No -- Michael's brother's wife.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 30 2005, 06:34 PM

were non familial witnesses to Terri's expression of the fact that she would not want to be artificially sustained

Again, you sure you got those facts right? My understanding was that the witnesses were Michael Schiavo's brother and sister-in-law.

I concur.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

OK -- I just finished reading the condensed appellate transcript provided by the abstractappeal website Idacat very helpfully posted.

I am literally flushed red-faced as I write this. The original factual finding -- the one that every single reviewing court has (properly) deferred to -- is the thinnest bloody evidentiary record I have encountered in five years of litigation practice. As a judge, I wouldn't be comfortable entering a $25,000 judgment for breach of contract on the basis of the evidence underlying Judge Greer's finding that Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to receive continuing medical treatment. "Clear and convincing evidence" that wasn't. There was conflicting evidence, and both sides had potential conflicts of interest (although the Schindlers' conflict was much more speculative -- they would only have become Terri's heirs if Michael divorced her, which wasn't a subject of the guardianship litigation, while Michael definitely stood to inherit from her if he got the relief he was seeking in that proceeding). Based on that, I think I would have had to have found that even if the evidence supporting Michael's position were stronger, it did not rise to the level of a "clear and convincing" superiority. In other words, I would have punted, and hoped quietly that nature would have intervened to kill Terri quickly enough so that if death really would have been her wish, an erroneous decision on my part wouldn't have had much effect.

The original Florida appellate court included the statement, "We reconfirm today that a court's default position must favor life." Bullpuckey. Judge Greer definitely didn't like the Schindlers, and both he and the short-serving guardian ad litem Pearse clearly believe, as their personal opinion, that life in Terri's condition isn't worth living. Not to mention that Judge Greer doesn't come across in his original opinion as terribly bright, if you go by my (admittedly snobbish) standards of grammar: he used the phrase "between she and Terri" and used the word "offset" where he should have said "outset." God forbid that my life should ever be in the hands of someone who doesn't know his nominative from his accusative case.

As for the evidence of bulimia, I got this from the report of a reviewing court's appointed guardian ad litem:

"The cause of the imbalance was not clearly identified, but may be linked, in theory, to her drinking 10-15 glasses of iced tea each day. While no formal proof emerged, the medical records note that the combination of [Theresa's] aggressive weight loss, diet control and excessive hydration raised questions about Theresa from Bulimia, an eating disorder, more common among women than men, in which purging through vomiting, laxatives and other methods of diet control become obsessive."

The most definitive authority for the perception that Terri was bulimic was the finding of the jury in Michael Schiavo's malpractice action for failure to diagnose it. I advise my clients that once a case goes before a jury, the odds are basically 50-50. There is literally no way to predict what that thick-skulled college of cretins absurdly referred to a jury of one's "peers" will do. I'm familiar with a case in which a jury's finding would, quite literally, only have been possible if Isaac Newton was totally wrong with his laws of motion.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 30 2005, 06:31 PM

Ida,

You sure about that? My understanding was that Schiavo's malpractice suit was for failure to diagnose the bulimia, (see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-...867205,00.html) which doesn't quite jive with the condition being "well documented ... well before her cardiac incident." Do you have a link stating otherwise?

Here's your own link at http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage...e.html#timeline (see the January 1993 timeline entry): "Michael recovers $1 million settlement for medical malpractice claim involving Terri's care; jury had ruled in Michael's favor on allegations Terri's doctors failed to diagnose her bulimia, which led to her heart failure; case settled while on appeal."

So,since Michael won the case and was awarded the settlement does this not become a non issue?

Terri's family, as well as Michael have spoken about Terri's eating disorder, which included hyperhydration, also known to lower potassium levels. The fact that the doctor did not recognize it and diagnose it as bulimia and treat it likewise is the point on which the malpractice case was won.

IMO, this discounts any implication that the bulimia is another Schaivo "red herring" thrown in there to hide the fact he attempted to kill his wife...................a scenario for which there is no evidence whatsoever. And which so many want to believe.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 30 2005, 07:26 PM

OK -- I just finished reading the condensed appellate transcript provided by the abstractappeal website Idacat very helpfully posted....................

At least you read it, and are not basing your entire assessment of the case on the affadavit of a fired nurse and a deposition of an ex girlfriend of Michael's with a dash of random, emotionally charged gossip thrown in.

Which IS what most people are doing, in general, not just here.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Idacat+Mar 30 2005, 12:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Mar 30 2005, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 30 2005, 08:06 AM

If she has no pain whatsoever, why are they giving her morphine every couple of hours around the clock?

Not sure where you are getting your information, but all the patients I have take care of that are really in PVS's (caused by lack of oxygen) required ventilators.

She is not being given morphine around the clock, is not on a morphine pump. As I recall, and I heard this on mainstream news broadcasts, probably NBC or MSNBC, she has received a small amount of morphine twice since the feeding tube was removed. I don't know why she received even that; perhaps so that her caregivers would not later be accused of allowing her to suffer without morphine.

PVS would not require a ventilator except for two reasons: if the brain stem were compromised instead of or in addition to the cerebral cortex, or is artificial ventilation were required during a bout of pneumonia. As you may have noticed, Terri does have an open tracheostomy. There are probably thousands of people in PVS's who do not require artificial ventilation, this would depend on which part of the brain was affected; Terri's brain stem is intact, a sort of freaky fluke of fate, IMO. And, people whose brain stem is affected are not usually said to be in a PVS, but fall into the category of "brain dead"; their brain is incapable of generating the necessary impulses to sustain life in terms of breathing and automatic functions.

More on the pain issue. KSL had a physician on the noon news the other day, someone whose specialty is terminal/hospice care who explained the process of "starvation". Even in cognizant individuals the end stage is preceded by ketosis which may produce a state of euphoria and well being (and, I have been there, this is true)which is followed by the release of endorphans in the brain, which are a natural tranquilizer/sedative/analgesic. I do know a few people who fast for extreme periods of time for spiritual reasons and describe and eleven day fast as a great natural "high", however strange this sounds to those of us who have never done this and are not likely to try it.

Again, I am asking you where you get your information. I worked for many years as a RN on a unit that cared for patients with PVS's resulting from lack of oxygen, and they had to be ventilator-assisted.

[Idacat]

Despite the general consensus that people in a persistent vegetative state feel no bodily pain, Schiavo's caregivers at Woodside Hospice recently began administering the painkiller morphine to her. "Since some relatives claim she is not in PVS, this practice reassures them she will not suffer," Bernat said

As I suspected,from this link which also explains in detail the process of death and the pain and sensation issues.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 30 2005, 07:39 PM

Again, I am asking you where you get your information. I worked for many years as a RN on a unit that cared for patients with PVS's resulting from lack of oxygen, and they had to be ventilator-assisted.

Then, their brain stems were affected with or without damage to the cortex.

If you are a nurse you understand the functions of the different lobes of the brain, brain stem intact, breathing can be unassisted (except in the case of assisted breathing due to pneumonia, such as Jerry Falwell is now receiving). It is Terri's cerebral cortex that is gone, her brain stem is intact. You don't need your cerebral cortex to breathe; you need it to be.

Ask a few doctors, I did.

And, if anything, keeping people alive like this who require assisted breathing is even more of an abomination of compassion, and an argument for having a living will, health care proxy, and/or advance directive than is even Terri's situation.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

So,since Michael won the case and was awarded the settlement does this not become a non issue?

No, actually. First, as you'll read from my point above, just because a jury says something is so doesn't make it so. ("Darn straight!" the ghosts of Nicole Brown Simpson and Bonnie Blakely just screamed.) Even as a legal matter, the jury's finding in the malpractice case doesn't conclusively establish the fact of bulimia in the guardianship proceeding. The legal principle is called "collateral estoppel." The idea is that once a factual issue has been litigated in one litigation, it is treated as established in another litigation -- but only as to the parties involved in the first litigation. Since the Schindlers -- the parties who were adverse to Michael Schiavo in the guardianship proceeding -- weren't parties in the malpractice action, the principle of collateral estoppel would not result in the malpractice jury's finding of bulimia being established in the guardianship action.

The fact that the doctor did not recognize it and diagnose it as bulimia and treat it likewise is the point on which the malpractice case was won.

Exactly. The doctor did not diagnose bulimia, as you suggested earlier he had. Why not? It must not have been particularly obvious. You might even say there was little or no evidence for it (actually, the guardian ad litem in the 2002 review of the case said just that). From there, it's only a hop, skip and a jump from concluding that maybe a serious enough case of bulimia to cause a fatal potassium imbalance wasn't there at all.

And of course if I were a conspiratorial sort like the ridiculous percentage of Americans who think that a vast conspiracy whacked JFK, I would then start wondering what, besides vomiting caused by bulimia, could cause a severe blood-potassium deficiency. I might look up a medical website (http://www.nursewise.com/courses/K_hour.htm) and note that a dose of epinephrine followed by a dose of insulin would do nicely. (Alternatively, one could kill someone and then give her an insulin shot, which would have the effect of making potassium levels in the blood read low.) I might then recall that Michael Schiavo was a nursing student and go, "hm." Then I'd wonder whether he had a large insurance policy on his wife -- and if so, why he would have needed one, since they had no children to cause big childcare expenses if she were gone -- and if he were having financial difficulties back in 1990. If I were the local cops, I would have taken a good hard look at this. Maybe they did; if they did and were convinced it didn't happen, well, "sorry Mike; no offense intended, but we have to run down all our leads, you understand."

The odds that Michael Schiavo has just pulled off the perfect murder by causing a fatal potassium imbalance are slim, but on the other hand I wouldn't think that Terri's particular illness happens all that often, either. (Karen Carpenter died of anorexia, not bulimia, and it doesn't look like a potassium imbalance was the main cause of her heart failure; rather, severe malnutrition had badly weakened her heart.) On the other hand, husbands kill their wives all the time; homicide is the most frequent cause of death for young women, and the murderer is most frequently a husband or boyfriend.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 29 2005, 07:47 AM

Thank you Begood2 you were able to state the facts clearly and calmly. I feel very close to what is happening with Terri because of the trauma that I have experienced these last several months with my own son Nick. I feel for Terri's parents who have always had her best interest at heart but have been stripped of all legal rights. The only right which they still have is that of being able to speak out and to be heard.

Thank you for also reading the links that I included where many might just consider me to be a raging lunatic driven by passion.

I see that Snow has also attacked you for seeking out more then the media is willing to produce, and for that I feel bad.

Um, Terri's parents were "stripped" of any rights over her when she signed that legally binding document called a marriage license. Mr. Schiavo signed that same document, thereby binding him to her and vice versa until death parts them.

Or they are granted a divorce.

I think you are too close to this issue to see it objectively, dontcha think?

And who or what is "this media"? How can the Schindler families web page with it's passionate distortions and sympathetic links be considered an unbiased source?

Willikers!