Believe, Works, and Faith

[Hemidakota]

Ok...you may me do it.

[aj4u]

I am serious. Sometimes it takes more effort. I once vistied a family for 3 years before they softened enough to come to church. What would have happened if I gave up after 1 month or 1 year?

We can offer good advice with good intentions because we've all been there. We really do know how far-fetched the restored Gospel sounds... God and Jesus Christ appearing to man in 1820? Most of modern Christianity sees this as a direct contradiction to the way the Bible says it's going to happen in the last days.

But, it was no different when Christ came in the flesh. Those that waited for a Messiah, those of God's people, didn't even see Him because they felt it was going to happen a different way. Yet, a few wise men traveled from afar just to see Him and pay Him tribute.

All we can do is try. I don't know how many pages of posts is too many. But, I'm sincere in wanting to help, so I feel I have nothing to fear.

I believe you are sincere. I don't understand why it took you so long to understand what I was saying about faith and works especially when Bro. Rudick understood and explained it. Again I apologize for being condescending with you, but please understand I have experience deception for only wanting to sincerely serve God. I believe I went through this for a reason.

I don't need for anyone to explain to me what that reason was because God has already shown me. One of the things I did to get out was to put all the pros on one side of a paper and all the cons on the other side regarding the group I was in. I came up with more cons, but that wasn't enough to have me leave the group. I would constantly justify and make excuses for what didn't line up. I guess I did that because I was already hook on the group and interrelationships play a role of making the bondage stick.

Only God can show us the deception in our lives. We cannot see it without His intervention. So now I look at all the pros and cons of everything. It is a lot easier for me to see objectively about any group this way, but once I join, I might see subjectively and that can hinder spiritual clarity. I really don't believe in arguing. What good does it do to win a battle and lose the war?

If you don't mind, however, I will continue the study of LDS doctrine, but I will compare and contrast it against the Bible. I will post my findings, and you can address them for me. I don't need to tell you that if there is a clash, I trust the ancient written word more, because God does not change but the times do. By the way, you are a 100% right about how strange and far-fetched a restored Gospel sounds especially God and Jesus Christ appearing to man in 1820? Most of modern Christianity sees this as a direct contradiction to the way the Bible says it's going to happen in the last days. It is good you realize that. I would be one of them. In my minds eye, I believe men get visions from spiritual sources, but those sources can be impersonating Jesus and/ or God.

Edited May 19, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

. . . God and Jesus Christ appearing to man in 1820? Most of modern Christianity sees this as a direct contradiction to the way the Bible says it's going to happen in the last days.

But, it was no different when Christ came in the flesh. Those that waited for a Messiah, those of God's people, didn't even see Him because they felt it was going to happen a different way . . .

Eventually, the missionaries write-off a contact who is so antagonistic and confrontational and insincere (and as he just acknowledged: "condescending") that nothing they say is making a difference. There are better ways to spend your time and energy. Edited May 19, 2009 by the Ogre

[aj4u]

Eventually, the missionaries write-off a contact who is so antagonistic and confrontational and insincere (and as he just acknowledged: "condescending") that nothing they say is making a difference. There are better ways to spend your time and energy.

God is the only one who says eventually when one will be written-off. You are not God. Besides, IHMO, I see more of an antagonistic spirit coming from someone who calls another a troll and insincere, accusing and judging someone for something they already apologized for and many such things. This I have not done to you or anybody else. So why would you imply to Justice that I am antagonistic, insincere, and a waste of time? I really don't see any redemptive or hopeful possibilities in such comments as these. Remember, you can tell more about a person from what they say about others than what others say about them. Edited May 19, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

[aj4u]

As per our discusion on faith and works, I found Al Maxey coments on it that I agree with, but I feel he is able to articulater better than me:

"What is the gospel? It is not a system of doctrine, a philosophy of life, a compilation of laws, or a code of ethics. It is good news about a person and what that person has done for us in our hopeless, helpless and hapless condition. It is not a message for the saved, but for the lost. It is never addressed to saints, but to sinners. It is never proclaimed to the church, but to the world" (Ketcherside, The Twisted Scriptures). "A careful student of the Galatian letter will at once see that the good news was a proclamation that we are justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of law" (ibid). "This is the gospel which Paul proclaimed in Galatia. It was the good news that Jesus was not as powerless as Greek wisdom and Jewish legalism. Salvation was not hinged upon arriving at wisdom or coming under law, but coming to a person" (ibid). "The gospel is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is the good news, the greatest good news in all the history of sinful man. Paul declared that the message brought to Galatia was 'Jesus Christ publicly portrayed as crucified' (Gal. 3:1). The truth of that gospel, that is, the essence, the basis, the central theme was justification by faith in Jesus Christ" (ibid).

· The gospel message of the apostle Paul was, and still is, simply this -- "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). No man can be justified before God by his own meritorious effort under a system of law ... any system of law. The only wage man merits is death, "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). The message of this free gift of God's grace is the gospel. It is ours for the taking by faith in His Son. Paul emphasizes this truth repeatedly throughout his writings, and opposes with great intensity any effort to subvert this message with legalistic thinking.

The Gospel means good news to me!

[the Ogre]

Besides, IHMO, I see more of an antagonistic spirit coming from someone who calls another a troll and insincere, accusing and judging someone for something they already apologized for and many such things.

I am THE Ogre, I am antagonistic it is who I am, but I have yet to attack your beliefs (unlike your unrelenting assault regarding possible deceit regarding our beliefs), I am spending my energy on your methods. I do not go to EV forums and attack their theology, practices, historical figures, and ideology like you are doing here. To do so would be internet-trollery. I do not think anyone here should be trying to align LDS doctrine to your way of thought through the bible and general-philosophy, but that seems to be what you are insisting on.

You are expecting some type of surrender and acknowledgment. I told you this is not some interfaith forum, where compromise is expected and required. Do not expect compromise. To compromise would be a betrayal to every Latter-day Saint world wide and through time. You have had enough explanation.

We love the Holy Bible, but do not consider it the final word on all things regarding LDS doctrine. Stop insisting that we should.

That you do is fine, extend the same consideration.

Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Oh brother . . . Edited May 19, 2009 by the Ogre

[the Ogre]

You wonder why I think you are a troll. Here is a definition that describes you perfectly:

Concern trolling is a form of Internet trolling in which someone enters a discussion with claims that he or she supports the view of the discussion, but has concerns. In fact, the concern troll is opposed to the view of the discussion, and he or she uses concern trolling to sow doubt and dissent in the community of commenters or posters. Although this practice originated on the Internet, it has since spread to the real world as well, with concern trolls popping up in a variety of places from network television to op-ed columns . . .

Many people think that the best thing to do with Internet trolls is to ignore them. By refusing to give them anything to feed on, users can continue their discussion and stay focused on the issues they want to talk about. However, it can be tricky to distinguish a concern troll from a devil's advocate or someone who genuinely supports the cause, but does have worries. Tip-offs that someone is a concern troll include a recent registration date, for sites that require registration to post, along with minimal personal details in a user account. Concern trolling also tends to come from people with no commenting or posting history, so if a brand-new user shows up and starts raising doubts, it may be a concern troll.

What is Concern Trolling?

You are no devil's advocate and you do not support LDS beliefs, doctrines, or practices. This is why I think you are a troll.

[aj4u]

I am THE Ogre, I am antagonistic it is who I am, but I have yet to attack your beliefs (unlike your unrelenting assault regarding possible deceit regarding our beliefs), I am spending my energy on your methods. I do not go to EV forums and attack their theology, practices, historical figures, and ideology like you are doing here. To do so would be internet-trollery. I do not think anyone here should be trying to align LDS doctrine to your way of thought through the bible and general-philosophy, but that seems to be what you are insisting on..

Wow, you said not me! I thought that you love the Bible enough to consider a problem with anything that didn't align with its core essential beliefs of Christianity. I am not asking you to compromise anything. Have you arrived and stop searching for truth. I am still searching and learning. Do you have all the truth now? You said your belief doesn't clash with the Bible, and I have ask how not in certain stituations and you interpret that as an attack. Is it an attack because you cannot respond or because they do clash? Why is it an attack? Is what I shared not true about the Bible? If not, show me how so I can recant my statements.

You are expecting some type of surrender and acknowledgment. I told you this is not some interfaith forum, where compromise is expected and required. Do not expect compromise. To compromise would be a betrayal to every Latter-day Saint world wide and through time. You have had enough explanation. .

I hate compromise too and I told you, I expect nothing. Sounds like you have written-me off already.

We love the Holy Bible, but do not consider it the final word on all things regarding LDS doctrine. Stop insisting that we should..

I don't insist on anything. I have been discussing things with certain individuals and you joined in the discussion attacking me with name calling. Why can't we just have a challenging discussion on the facts. Like I intend for it to be. If we arrive to truth, we can all follow it together. I just want to be sure there is a solid foundation to what I take in. I am sorry if this threatens you. You strike me as being insecure now. Edited May 19, 2009 by aj4u

[Islander]

As per our discusion on faith and works, I found Al Maxey coments on it that I agree with, but I feel he is able to articulater better than me:

"What is the gospel? It is not a system of doctrine, a philosophy of life, a compilation of laws, or a code of ethics. It is good news about a person and what that person has done for us in our hopeless, helpless and hapless condition. It is not a message for the saved, but for the lost. It is never addressed to saints, but to sinners. It is never proclaimed to the church, but to the world" (Ketcherside, The Twisted Scriptures). "A careful student of the Galatian letter will at once see that the good news was a proclamation that we are justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of law" (ibid). "This is the gospel which Paul proclaimed in Galatia. It was the good news that Jesus was not as powerless as Greek wisdom and Jewish legalism. Salvation was not hinged upon arriving at wisdom or coming under law, but coming to a person" (ibid). "The gospel is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is the good news, the greatest good news in all the history of sinful man. Paul declared that the message brought to Galatia was 'Jesus Christ publicly portrayed as crucified' (Gal. 3:1). The truth of that gospel, that is, the essence, the basis, the central theme was justification by faith in Jesus Christ" (ibid).

· The gospel message of the apostle Paul was, and still is, simply this -- "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). No man can be justified before God by his own meritorious effort under a system of law ... any system of law. The only wage man merits is death, "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). The message of this free gift of God's grace is the gospel. It is ours for the taking by faith in His Son. Paul emphasizes this truth repeatedly throughout his writings, and opposes with great intensity any effort to subvert this message with legalistic thinking.

The Gospel means good news to me!

To ALL of us as well. The issue here is according to what I have seen thus far, that it is unclear what you are seeking here in the forum. Realize that nothing you have said so far is novel or different from what every other non-LDS poster have shared in the past. There are 1000's of posts carbon copy, almost with what you have shared. See, you just got here but we have been around for years.

So, the skepticism is about your desire to contend before you have taken the time to research the wealth of information already here. It is a well traveled road, I promise you. You are entitled to your beliefs and we only claim the same privileged.

The argument is as old as the hills and the life of the Savior is a testimony to the fact that the truth and facts about God often time escape the learned and the erudite for no reason other than the fact that they closed their ears to it; for they supposed they already knew.

[aj4u]

I don't mind you attacking what I believe if that is what you want to call it. I realize how tricky the enemy is so I am open to correction, rebuke and reproof in what i believe. I welcome it and cannot understand anyone would fear it! Fear is the opposite of faith!

[aj4u]

To ALL of us as well. The issue here is according to what I have seen thus far, that it is unclear what you are seeking here in the forum. Realize that nothing you have said so far is novel or different from what every other non-LDS poster have shared in the past. There are 1000's of posts carbon copy, almost with what you have shared. See, you just got here but we have been around for years.

So, the skepticism is about your desire to contend before you have taken the time to research the wealth of information already here. It is a well traveled road, I promise you. You are entitled to your beliefs and we only claim the same privileged.

The argument is as old as the hills and the life of the Savior is a testimony to the fact that the truth and facts about God often time escape the learned and the erudite for no reason other than the fact that they closed their ears to it; for they supposed they already knew.

I didn't know this. I thought it was a matter of understanding. If you trace back posts you can see why I am led to think this way. So are you meaning to tell me you don't agree with the explaination of faith I have posted? Then, I would like to know why:confused:Instead of being told I am not sincere by one!

[aj4u]

I mentioned that I would do further research, but I end up caught into chasing rabbits!

[Islander]

I didn't know this. I thought it was a matter of understanding. If you trace back posts you can see why I am led to think this way. So are you meaning to tell me you don't agree with the explaination of faith I have posted? Then, I would like to know why:confused:Instead of being told I am not sincere by one!

My point exactly. After 30 pages of posts, some clarity emerged on your part as to what we actually believe about faith and works. It would have taken you about 1 hour of reading and you would have arrived at the same place minus the contention and animosity.

I suggest it is important for you to really question your motivations and the true intent of your heart for being here. We know what you have been taught, we know what you believe and your contribution by way of posting has been plentiful.

Our witness is simple: We hold, as you do, that the bible is inspired of God and it is an intrinsic part of our cannon as well. What we have, share and invite all men to do is to study and ponder, to pray and to ask God in regards to the witness and revelation that has come to us in the latter days, namely The Book of Mormon. It does not negate or deride existing scripture but clarifies. It offer another witness of the divinity of Christ, of his ministry, mission, mercy towards the children of God and unequivocal assertion that Salvation is of Him, by Him and thru Him. It is Him whom we worship and who directs the affairs of His Church thru His appointed servants today, for He lives and reveals His will and order to those who desire to listen to His voice. And we strive to live our lives according His commandments in humility for we all sin and fall short of His glory but His mercy and redemption is our bright hope for salvation and exaltation. And we labor to spread the Gospel, the good news of which you also spoke, to the whole world. So ALL come to know the Lord and Redeemer of mankind and be saved.

I sincerely pray you will consider the above. I also pray that you would ponder in your heart what questions you may have and seek to first research in detail. And once you have exhausted the material then come back and ask but not in the spirit of contention, but to sincerely attempt to understand.

[the Ogre]

. . . Have you arrived and stop searching for truth. I am still searching and learning. Do you have all the truth now? . . .

Hilarious.

. . . all the truth . . . a challenging discussion of fact . . .

LOL

Now you are the ardent-clothed harlequin come forth to bandy secular-humanism dancing like a graceful ballerina in front of some and a witty musketeer to skewer discontent lightly with a blunted foil under the guise of religious debate. Juggle that truth, fact, and faith, ignore the bowling-pins, chain-saws, and goslings.

Can you see them: my tears of mirth.

Ah me. That was funny.

I never said my beliefs don't clash with the Bible, I said modern revelation makes whole sections of the Bible redundant. I love the Bible. It is one of the greatest pieces of literature in the world and often the most beautifully written, but if I want truth, I listen to a living prophet. It is that simple. The Bible cannot justify every LDS belief. Any who try are going to twist and juggle just as you are. It isn't worth it.

LDS beliefs are too plain and simple for that, but most of all they are based on modern revelation. A prophet, speaking on behalf of G-d, does not need to rely on Biblical precedent. Because they do not, I do not. I prefer to stay current. My search for truth, though reaching back to the Bible, seeks the current word of G-d.

You strike me as being insecure now.

Bwahahahaha . . . I'm still laughing.

[JohnnyRudick]

I mentioned that I would do further research, but I end up caught into chasing rabbits!

Do as Islander sugests.

If you chase Rabbits you know from experience you can ask and that there are plenty of us who will (without too much of a judgmental attitude:p) help you chase one of them pesky critters down.

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

My point exactly. After 30 pages of posts, some clarity emerged on your part as to what we actually believe about faith and works. It would have taken you about 1 hour of reading and you would have arrived at the same place minus the contention and animosity.

I suggest it is important for you to really question your motivations and the true intent of your heart for being here. We know what you have been taught, we know what you believe and your contribution by way of posting has been plentiful.

Our witness is simple: We hold, as you do, that the bible is inspired of God and it is an intrinsic part of our cannon as well. What we have, share and invite all men to do is to study and ponder, to pray and to ask God in regards to the witness and revelation that has come to us in the latter days, namely The Book of Mormon. It does not negate or deride existing scripture but clarifies. It offer another witness of the divinity of Christ, of his ministry, mission, mercy towards the children of God and unequivocal assertion that Salvation is of Him, by Him and thru Him. It is Him whom we worship and who directs the affairs of His Church thru His appointed servants today, for He lives and reveals His will and order to those who desire to listen to His voice. And we strive to live our lives according His commandments in humility for we all sin and fall short of His glory but His mercy and redemption is our bright hope for salvation and exaltation. And we labor to spread the Gospel, the good news of which you also spoke, to the whole world. So ALL come to know the Lord and Redeemer of mankind and be saved.

I sincerely pray you will consider the above. I also pray that you would ponder in your heart what questions you may have and seek to first research in detail. And once you have exhausted the material then come back and ask but not in the spirit of contention, but to sincerely attempt to understand.

That was a nice explanation. Thanks. And I have mentioned my intentions in early posts. I like to have challenging discussions about my faith and walk with God. I don't think doubt is necessarily a bad thing if one is in deception. Well, I know it isn't, but it is painful to face. I am willing to go through it again and again if I am not on the right path. I do think doubt is bad, however, if we doubt God's love for us and His ressurection from the dead. But I can assure you I am sincere and I am trying to understand why you say that the Bible doesn't clash with modern day revelation you put your trust in if in fact you do. I am not treating anyone differently on forum than I would want to be treated. I pray that God has His way with all of us.:)

[aj4u]

Do as Islander sugests.

If you chase Rabbits you know from experience you can ask and that there are plenty of us who will (without too much of a judgmental attitude:p) help you chase one of them pesky critters down.

Bro. Rudick

You have to admit, they make good eating:cool:

[aj4u]

Hilarious.

LOL

Now you are the ardent-clothed harlequin come forth to bandy secular-humanism dancing like a graceful ballerina in front of some and a witty musketeer to skewer discontent lightly with a blunted foil under the guise of religious debate. Juggle that truth, fact, and faith, ignore the bowling-pins, chain-saws, and goslings.

Can you see them: my tears of mirth.

Ah me. That was funny.

I never said my beliefs don't clash with the Bible, I said modern revelation makes whole sections of the Bible redundant. I love the Bible. It is one of the greatest pieces of literature in the world and often the most beautifully written, but if I want truth, I listen to a living prophet. It is that simple. The Bible cannot justify every LDS belief. Any who try are going to twist and juggle just as you are. It isn't worth it.

LDS beliefs are too plain and simple for that, but most of all they are based on modern revelation. A prophet, speaking on behalf of G-d, does not need to rely on Biblical precedent. Because they do not, I do not. I prefer to stay current. My search for truth, though reaching back to the Bible, seeks the current word of G-d.

Bwahahahaha . . . I'm still laughing.

You see maybe I should approach my study differently. The Mormons on this forum don't agree with eachother about the Bible. Some feel it supports LDS doctrine and some feel it doesn't clash and some say it is not accurate or dependable. Now you say that you didn't say it doesn't clash. That is kind of what I was hoping to hear, because I see clashing. Some are not being honest about it or are in denial about it. I am very curious as to why. By the way, that was an interesting definitions of a troll. Edited May 19, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

Only God can show us the deception in our lives.

We can't be shown anything unless we are willing to listen.

If you don't mind, however, I will continue the study of LDS doctrine, but I will compare and contrast it against the Bible. I will post my findings, and you can address them for me. I don't need to tell you that if there is a clash, I trust the ancient written word more, because God does not change but the times do.

As I said, you are comparing it to your interpretation of the Bible. Until you open your mind and consider Jesus just might have more words to say, it will be impossible for you to see what we're talking about.

By the way, you are a 100% right about how strange and far-fetched a restored Gospel sounds especially God and Jesus Christ appearing to man in 1820? Most of modern Christianity sees this as a direct contradiction to the way the Bible says it's going to happen in the last days. It is good you realize that. I would be one of them. In my minds eye, I believe men get visions from spiritual sources, but those sources can be impersonating Jesus and/ or God.

Many accused Jesus of being a devil, or being led by a devil. These were men of the established church of God at the time. Since the Messiah came in a different way than they interpreted, they thought Him a false Christ and a devil. So much so, they crucified the very Messiah they were looking for.

Christ will come again in a glorious Second Coming. He never said He wouldn't come and restore His gospel first, in fact, He said quite the opposite. He said He would gather the wheat from among the tares. It's just happening differently than most people think it will so they won't open their heart. Kinda like deja vu.

[Islander]

You see maybe I should approach my study differently. The Mormons on this forum don't agree with eachother about the Bible. Some feel it supports LDS doctrine and some feel it doesn't clash and some say it is not accurate or dependable. Now you say that you didn't say it doesn't clash. That is kind of what I was hoping to hear, because I see clashing. Some are not being honest about it or are in denial about it. I am very curious as to why. By the way, that was an interesting definitions of a troll.

Using the bible as your ONLY point of reference will take you nowhere, as demonstrated by the hundreds of garden variety religious sects currently in the world. More over, the bible does have internal contradictions. It was compiled by men, replicated by men and translated by men. Again, variances across translations and interpretations by congregations (Eastern Orthodox vs Roman order). Archaeological scholarship, linguistics, among other disciplines have shed light into the texts and revisions have been made over the years. The selection of the very cannon of scripture that we hold to be the inspired word of God and revere by Christians suffered changes over the years and some books were removed and others added. To this day some books used in the Roman Church which are not used by the evangelical churches.

As Justice pointed above, if you think you already know the answer then the exercise (studying LDS scriptures) is futile. Those who knew the most in Israel accuse the very Law Giver of breaking the Law and suggested He was of the devil. What more can we say.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Islander

[aj4u]

Aj4u?

Where are you going to get your information? What anti-Mormon site did you find?

I didn't look at any anti - Mormon site. I am now looking at the book of Mormon comparing and contrasting it with Scriptures and history.

[the Ogre]

You see maybe I should approach my study differently. The Mormons on this forum don't agree with eachother about the Bible. Some feel it supports LDS doctrine and some feel it doesn't clash and some say it is not accurate or dependable. Now you say that you didn't say it doesn't clash. That is kind of what I was hoping to hear, because I see clashing. Some are not being honest about it or are in denial about it. I am very curious as to why. By the way, that was an interesting definitions of a troll.

You're a modern Chr-stian, that means you also feel sections of the Bible are redundant: I doubt you practice the Law of Moses. From reading what you are writing, I can tell you do not understand parts of the NT like most mainstream Chr-stians, not to mention how Latter-day Saints understand them. If you read the Book of Mormon, you will find most if not all of J-sus' NT teachings repeated or reinforced, but you would be challenged to find the same for 75% of what Paul had to say. Many modern non-LDS scholars feel most of Paul's letters are forgeries or subject to manipulation by 3rd century Chr-stians and/or Chr-stian authorities (see as an example among hundreds of others: Former fundamentalist 'debunks' Bible - CNN.com ). TO say the least, the texts pertaining to Paul are controversial and as such Latter-day Saints have an article of faith to explain why we might not be too concerned about what the bible says (AoF #8) and rely on modern revelation (please note, I love the Bible, but if you think LDS are alone doubting 100% of the bible, then you are up in the night).

I dislike trying to rectify Latter-day Saint doctrine with the Bible. As evidenced by this thread, some of Johnny's posts don't always make sense. I would rather not even bother. The key to what we believe is a belief in modern revelation. Learn to deal with it, we're not going to change just for you.

Regarding the troll thing, it is accurate. You are not active in the LDS.net community. You never post to other threads other than this one and the older one (oop: I guess I might be wrong, I just read through that ginormous tithing post . . . oh my, please just place a link next time). You pretend to be concerned, but constantly attack.

Edited May 20, 2009 by the Ogre

[the Ogre]

I didn't look at any anti - Mormon site. I am now looking at the book of Mormon comparing and contrasting it with Scriptures and history.

I doubt this, for a few posts you brought up some cliche Tanner stuff.

[aj4u]

You're a modern Chr-stian, that means you also feel sections of the Bible are redundant: I doubt you practice the Law of Moses. From reading what you are writing, I can tell you do not understand parts of the NT like most mainstream Chr-stians, not to mention how Latter-day Saints understand them. If you read the Book of Mormon, you will find most if not all of J-sus' NT teachings repeated or reinforced, but you would be challenged to find the same for 75% of what Paul had to say. Many modern non-LDS scholars feel most of Paul's letters are forgeries or subject to manipulation by 3rd century Chr-stians and/or Chr-stian authorities (see as an example among hundreds of others: Former fundamentalist 'debunks' Bible - CNN.com ). TO say the least, the texts pertaining to Paul are controversial and as such Latter-day Saints have an article of faith to explain why we might not be too concerned about what the bible says (AoF #8) and rely on modern revelation (please note, I love the Bible, but if you think LDS are alone doubting 100% of the bible, then you are up in the night).

I dislike trying to rectify Latter-day Saint doctrine with the Bible. As evidenced by this thread, some of Johnny's posts don't always make sense. I would rather not even bother. The key to what we believe is a belief in modern revelation. Learn to deal with it, we're not going to change just for you.

Regarding the troll thing, it is accurate. You are not active in the LDS.net community. You never post to other threads other than this one and the older one (oop: I guess I might be wrong, I just read through that ginormous tithing post . . . oh my, please just place a link next time). You pretend to be concerned, but constantly attack.

I do not attack you my friend. You are attacking the Bible and what I believe but that is fine. I am open to it. Since the Bible isn't as reliable to you as I see it, lets look at this research. I think it is significant. I do have access to a book of Mormon and these are some on my observations:

1 Jn 5: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. This verse is an interpolation in the King James Version that is not in all major manuscripts of the New Testament, but it appears as a paraphrase in 3Nephi 11: 27, 36. So I can tell that the author read the Bible and got information from the KJV. In 2 Nephi 14:5 follows a translation error in KJV (Is. 4:5) “For upon all the glory shall be a defense” Modern translation renders it as it should be “For upon all the glory shall be a canopy” not a defense. The Hebrew word is “chuppah.” 3 Nephi 11:33-34 is almost a direct quote from Mark 16:16. This verse in the KJV is regarded by many Greek scholars as the writings of an over zealous scribe. In Acts 3, Peter paraphrases Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The author of 3 Nephi puts Peter’s classic paraphrased sermon in the mouth of Christ when the Savior was preaching to the Nephites. The problem is at the time Christ was preaching His sermon, the sermon hadn’t yet been preached by Peter. In addition to this, 3 Nephi in verse 23 chap 20 we find Christ attributes Peter’s paraphrased word to Moses as a direct quotation. This makes Christ out to be a liar. The wording is different but the author of 3 Nephi didn’t check back far enough to catch that. The Revised Standard Version renders Is.5:25 correctly “And their corpses were as refuse”…(suchah) not torn. KJV renders it “And their corpses were torn…” 2 Nephi 15:25 follows the KJV translation error. Can you explain this to me? Or will you just continue to call me a troll for not coming up with something different. I consider these fair points for discussion. After all we are dealing with our eternal souls. We are all in God’s business watching for one another in the love of Christ. What if someone is trying to do to you what has been done to me? I couldn’t live with myself knowing I didn’t try to show that there is that possibility. You at least owe it to yourself to check it out. Did it occur to you that God put me here for this reason?

Acts 3: 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Nephi

Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying:

“A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.”

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

D&C section 87 “… At the rebellion of South Carolina…the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain… and then war shall be poured out upon all nations… And…Slaves shall rise up against their masters…and that the remnants…shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.”

Though the Civil war broke out after 1844, England did not get involved nor were all nations as prophesied. The slaves didn’t rise up against their masters as stated in the prophecy and the remnants the Indians were themselves vexed by the Gentiles, being defeated only to be placed and confined to reservations.

These things appear to go beyond paraphrasing and into plagiarisms from the KJV and unfilled or possible to fufill prophecy.

Edited May 20, 2009 by aj4u