Ray Posted December 2, 2003 Report Posted December 2, 2003 If you’re sure that all of this can be explained, what is stopping you from accepting that explanation? Because the explanation doesn’t conform to Your beliefs, or what people have taught You? Who or what do You worship as the source of all truth? Whose assurance do You want? There are also things in the Bible that seem difficult to accept, at least until you come to understand the reasoning. The Bible states that God put a mark upon Cain, and who are You to state what that mark was or what it looked like? Whether or not black skin originated as a mark put upon man by God is irrelevant in my book, because every man is now able to receive all the blessings our Lord desires to share with those who follow Him. If you haven’t seen many people with black skin among the Church recently, perhaps it’s for some other reason than because the Church is prejudiced. The Church now declares the gospel to everybody, both Jews and Gentiles. The Church doesn’t try to save people with only black skin, just as we also don’t specifically target people with yellow skin or red skin or brown skin in particular. I’ll leave you to deduce why there are relatively few people with black skin among the Church today. Quote
Traveler Posted December 4, 2003 Report Posted December 4, 2003 Originally posted by Jesus Saves@Dec 2 2003, 02:52 PM God forbid I shall ever "become one " with the Mormon church! If I believed what the Mormon church teaches then I would have to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. If I believed that he was a prophet then I would have to believe that the book of Mormon was true. With your attitude you will fit right in with the Trinitarians. Perhaps you have already become one with the worldest bloodiest group to ever commit genocide. Not only did the Trinitarians bring about the Dark Ages. They sacrificed more women and children in Europe to their Trinitarian G-d that died in the Black Death.When the Trinitarians came the the Americas their were 40 million native Americans now there are less than 4 million. No where in the world has bloody genocide been so effective.Prior to 1549 there was no Trinitarian society that would allow any one that disagreed to live. When that law was passed all it did was stop the blood flowing among Trinitarians. Talk about biggots and prejudice!!! Not until 1826 is there evidence of a Trinitarian not enslaving and murduring those that disagreed with their Trinitarian deffination of G-d.If there were Trinitarians willing to shair the love of Jesus prior to 1826 would you please provide the public declariation that demonstrates it? I would like to hear about just one Trinitarian prior to 1826 willing to die so someone could believe in a non Trinitarian G-d. I would like to believe that in 1800 years the teaching of Jesus would have some effect.The Traveler Quote
Cal Posted December 20, 2003 Report Posted December 20, 2003 Traveler, I can also cite several cases where MORMONS also enforced their belief by force--just read some of the diaries and histories of some the events of the early saints in Utah---the Mountain meadow massacre was not the only example. There were numerous cases of physical punishment for disobeying the brethern and it wasn't a matter of law--it was good old fashioned religious persecution---so be careful when you get so critical of early Christian atrocities--we have a few of our own to cover up. Quote
Traveler Posted December 22, 2003 Report Posted December 22, 2003 Cal: I am so sorry but I have no idea where your are getting such palpably absurd ideas. First: This spiritual realm and physical realm is complete nonsense and not based on any creation doctrine taught in scripture. Man was created by G-d in the “Garden of G-d” and the “Garden of G-d” was completely in the realm in which G-d resides. Man as a “physical” creation was meant to reside with G-d, as a companion to G-d, in the realm that G-d resides. To live with G-d has always been the purpose of man’s creation – Why do you so vehemently deny this doctrine. This concept of physical creation of man in the realm of G-d is so prevalent in scripture I am left wondering where your contrary to scripture ideas are coming from. I do not for a moment believe that the physical creation of man took place in a realm contrary to the nature of G-d as you imply. I thought for a time your idea sprang from some liberal interpretation of scripture but your concept of man’s creation is without any correlation to any scripture I know about. You must provide a source for your realm concepts of creation. Second: Are you aware that man has a spirit? Do you not know that when spirit leaves the physical body that man is no longer considered a “living” soul? If the scriptures said that man’s spirit body is in the image of G-d’s spirit body your liberal ideas that man is in the image of G-d would have some credence. But you are trying to compare apples to oranges by saying apples are exactly like oranges and then say they are different because we are not really talking about the same things. The scriptures tell us that man is in the literal “physical” image of G-d. The ancient Hebrew is 100% clear on the notion that man was physically created to be just like G-d. There is no apples to oranges comparison of the creation in the scriptures as you are trying to pervert the sacred truth – the comparison is apples to apples and oranges to oranges or in the case of the creation of man, physical likeness and image to physical likeness and image. There is no other way that the ancient Hebrew words that are used can be understood on this point. The ancient Hebrew words have NEVER been used in the manner that you say is the only way to understand them. To imply such an outlandish understanding as you do, is to ignore the pure word of G-d as it was spoken by G-d to ancient prophets. The only question I have at this point is why do you hate truth spoken by G-d in purity to ancient prophets? Is it because it is too much like the pure truth he has spoken to modern prophets? The Traveler Quote
Traveler Posted December 23, 2003 Report Posted December 23, 2003 Originally posted by Cal@Dec 20 2003, 09:02 AM Traveler,I can also cite several cases where MORMONS also enforced their belief by force--just read some of the diaries and histories of some the events of the early saints in Utah---the Mountain meadow massacre was not the only example. There were numerous cases of physical punishment for disobeying the brethern and it wasn't a matter of law--it was good old fashioned religious persecution---so be careful when you get so critical of early Christian atrocities--we have a few of our own to cover up. Sorry again Cal: Your efforts to imply that the Mountain Meadow Massacre was about doctrine is once again complete nonsense. I am not saying that those involved did not break the law in fact they did break the law and they acted contrary to their own declared doctrine from our LDS prophets. The publishe doctrine that applies is that LDS believe in being subject to kings, presidents ... and honoring obeying and sustaining the law. Every where LDS have lived and established their society there have been people of different doctrine and religious notion living pecefully among them. Not so of Trinitarian societies prior to 1826.If there was a Trinitarian society trying to live the teachings of Jesus (ie. treating others of a different religion or doctrine ideas as you would like to be treated) prior to 1826 I find no evidence it. I will be glad to update my understanding on this if you would be kind enough to point me in the right direction. That some LDS do not live their declared and published religion is no more proof of false doctrine than Judas is proof Jesus was a false prophet.Why do you distort everyting about us so? It give me the impression you hate us.The TravelerThe Traveler Quote
Cal Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Traveler....the word "hate", nor the feeling, is in my vocabulary. I enjoy debate and discussion for its own sake, and is not meant to be taken personally. If I find what I think is illogical in a person's responses, I may seem to attack the response, but I bear no ill feeling toward anyone of any religion on this board. I find many of your postings informative and well considered. I find others hard to follow without making a lot of questionable assumptions. Be that as it may, your previous posting where you address me as though I had said something about being created in God's image mystifies me a little. I don't remember addressing that issue in THIS thread. What were you refering to? Regarding atrocities perpetuated in the name of religion, I'm sure those that committed the MM massacre thought they were doing so in the name of God, as other religious acts of 'rightousness'. Religious fanaticism has been one of the great social plagues that humans have brought on themselves. If you are going to single out Trinitarianism, you might as well get even more "sweeping" and condemn Christianity as a whole, as well as many other authoritarian religions. The root of much of religious violence on its neigbors has its roots in the age old "us against them" mentality that is found even in other primate and even lower mammalian societies. It's a way of preserving the integrity of a social group against the threat of extinction from outside groups. It's an evolutionary protection mechanism for survival. It is no big surprise that it survives in many modes, shapes and forms in societies today. Religous separatism is just another way for a social group to promote itselt and insure survival. This separatistic trait of groups gives rise to all kinds of conflict and animocities between people. As we have come so far technologically, we have yet to catch up in our social evolution. IOW, we are still behaving a lot like the cavemen we once were. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Originally posted by Ray+Nov 24 2003, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 24 2003, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@ Nov 13 2003, 12:33 AMWhen a spirit is removed from a physical body it is known as death. The same death that Jesus suffered on the cross. But Jesus took his phisical body following the resurrection and went to heaven where Stephen saw Jesus sitting on the right hand of the Father. This demonstrates that physical beings are in heaven. Also note that Jesus will return with the same "resurrected" physical body. And remember that scripture tells us a resurrected body is immortal and will not die - ever. G-d is not dead or a spirit of a dead person.I’d like to expound upon the subject of resurrection. Our resurrection will be the reuniting of our spirit with our body, and we are told that we will all be resurrected, the just and the unjust. Our Lord is an example of a resurrected being. After His resurrection, He ate and drank with His disciples, His disciples were able to touch His body, walk with Him, and embrace Him. His resurrected body was the same body that He had during His ministry, which was somehow glorified. We don’t know exactly what our bodies will be like after we are resurrected, but we can be assured that they will be something like His.To deny that we will be reunited with our physical bodies is to deny a physical resurrection, but that is the only kind of resurrection the scriptures speak about. Why believe something that is contrary to teachings in the scriptures? Awesome Ray! Good to see you here...missed ya! Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Originally posted by Mark@Nov 25 2003, 05:39 AM Hi Ray,You said "Why believe something that is contrary to teachings in the scriptures? "Think about it, Mormonism is contrary to what the bible teaches?MarkJohn 1:12 Think about it...LOL...out of the mouth of two or three witnesses. We know from Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible ...that there was many plain and precious things taken out of the Bible...That is where the BofM can clarify and expound upon doctrines that have become confusing...The D&C has done much to upgrade the teachings in the Bible as well. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Originally posted by HalleysComet@Nov 12 2003, 08:56 PM If were all made from apes we need to buy stock in razors cause we'd all have more hair,lol. j/kHalleys Comet LOL...I love it! :) Quote
Cal Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 As far as "many precious" things taken out of the bible, as far as JS's translation, there is "precious little" that changes the overall doctrines or message in the bible. As far as the BoM clarifying anything, the overall BoM reads like a duplication of the Bible, and the only controversies resolved are pretty much issues that were being hotly debated in the New England relgious community of the times. Quote
Guest bizabra Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Originally posted by Peace+Jan 17 2004, 11:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 17 2004, 11:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Mark@Nov 25 2003, 05:39 AM Hi Ray,You said "Why believe something that is contrary to teachings in the scriptures? "Think about it, Mormonism is contrary to what the bible teaches?MarkJohn 1:12 Think about it...LOL...out of the mouth of two or three witnesses. We know from Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible ...that there was many plain and precious things taken out of the Bible...That is where the BofM can clarify and expound upon doctrines that have become confusing...The D&C has done much to upgrade the teachings in the Bible as well. I have often wondered why THE CHURCH has not published Josephs' bible translation. Anyone know why not? You would think it would be the version of the bible they use. Not so. . . . . . .Hm m m m m m . . . . . . . Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Jan 17 2004, 11:46 AM As far as "many precious" things taken out of the bible, as far as JS's translation, there is "precious little" don't to change the overall doctrines or message in the bible.As far as the BoM clarifying anything, the overall BoM reads like a duplication of the Bible, and the only controversies resolved are pretty much issues that were being hotly debated in the New England relgious community of the times. There wasn't precious little...maybe you only understand precious little, but there are awesome things that would blow you over if you had half a 'spirit'. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Originally posted by bizabra+Jan 17 2004, 11:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jan 17 2004, 11:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 17 2004, 11:41 AM <!--QuoteBegin--Mark@Nov 25 2003, 05:39 AM Hi Ray,You said "Why believe something that is contrary to teachings in the scriptures? "Think about it, Mormonism is contrary to what the bible teaches?MarkJohn 1:12 Think about it...LOL...out of the mouth of two or three witnesses. We know from Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible ...that there was many plain and precious things taken out of the Bible...That is where the BofM can clarify and expound upon doctrines that have become confusing...The D&C has done much to upgrade the teachings in the Bible as well. I have often wondered why THE CHURCH has not published Josephs' bible translation. Anyone know why not? You would think it would be the version of the bible they use. Not so. . . . . . .Hm m m m m m . . . . . . . The RLDS church had the original manuscript and they published it...you can buy it and most members have their own copies...and some if not all is referenced in the footnotes in your quad. Quote
Cal Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Peace----ahhh yes, that deep understanding you get that you can never explain to anyone. Pray tell, how is anyone supposed to believe you when you can't communicate it? With that technique one can claim to know ANTHING at all and put himself above rational inquiry. What a nice place to live.......some of us call it LA LA land. By the way, the "spirit" just told me that you've got it all wrong....that the Seventh Day Adventists are the real true Church. Can you prove me wrong? Quote
Cal Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Peace--by the way, the JS translation of the Bible has been shown to contain many of the same translational errors that the King James version has. How do you explain that JS missed things that were clear errors? If it's SO inspired, how come God didn't inspire JS to correct many mistranslations---like the meaning of the word "virgin" in the old testament. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Peace----ahhh yes, that deep understanding you get that you can never explain to anyone. Pray tell, how is anyone supposed to believe you when you can't communicate it? With that technique one can claim to know ANTHING at all and put himself above rational inquiry. What a nice place to live.......some of us call it LA LA land. What a fruit cake you are! LOL All you have to do is get a spiritual confirmation...millions of people have done it....golly gee whizzzo man!By the way, the "spirit" just told me that you've got it all wrong....that the Seventh Day Adventists are the real true Church. Can you prove me wrong? Prove you wrong? LOL Since you are lying through your teeth....I don't have to prove you wrong...LOL ROFL! Quote
Cal Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Peace---millions of people get "spiritual confirmations" of all kinds of non-sense. Does that make it all true? By the way, you can't prove me wrong....and that is the point. So why should I believe what you say? Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 18, 2004 Report Posted January 18, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Jan 17 2004, 04:19 PM Peace---millions of people get "spiritual confirmations" of all kinds of non-sense. Does that make it all true?By the way, you can't prove me wrong....and that is the point. So why should I believe what you say? There is nothing to prove if you are lying...which you are.And millions of people receiving a confirmation....that is the same thing as a strong 'witness'...proof powerfully working for millions.You shouldn't believe me....ask God...and believe Him. Quote
Blessed Posted January 18, 2004 Report Posted January 18, 2004 This is where it gets complicated. This is what confuses me. We all can get a confirmation to something. Example: Peace you have had a confirmation to the LDS faith (and I believe you). Jenda has had confirmation that women should not be in the priesthood (therefore she is a Restorationist) I have had a confirmation that women have been called to the priesthood and therefore I am a member of Community of Christ. Only thing that I can come up with is that we are all one body made up of many parts. God confirms us all to a certain task in this world. We all have a unique work to do and yet still work as one. I don't know if that makes sense or not... just my deluded thinking in the wee hours of the morning. Quote
Cal Posted January 18, 2004 Report Posted January 18, 2004 Originally posted by Peace+Jan 17 2004, 09:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 17 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 17 2004, 04:19 PM Peace---millions of people get "spiritual confirmations" of all kinds of non-sense. Does that make it all true?By the way, you can't prove me wrong....and that is the point. So why should I believe what you say? There is nothing to prove if you are lying...which you are.And millions of people receiving a confirmation....that is the same thing as a strong 'witness'...proof powerfully working for millions.You shouldn't believe me....ask God...and believe Him. You totally missed my point----- God seems to tell Seventh Day Adventists, and people in many other religions that they are right TOO. Yet, he tells you something different. I wasn't talking about the millions of people that get confirmations you AGREE with, I'm talking about the ones that get confirmations like "The CAtholic Church is God's true church"---did they get that from God too?Is your God telling one person one thing, and another something totally contradictory? Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 18, 2004 Report Posted January 18, 2004 I believe God works within many different settings for His many children. I believe that the primary purpose of this life is to gain experience. I believe everyone on the planet is where God would have them be...gaining the experience He would have them gain. Under the plan of God, everyone will be given all they need to obtain the ultimate realm of Glory...whether in this life or the life to come. I see no conflict in the confirmations of 'truth' be they in one church or another, as long as those truth's bring men to a higher level of 'love' for their fellowmen. When I asked the Lord specifically where I could find HIS TRUE CHURCH, He told me in no uncertain terms, "My True Church is where there is true and honorable priesthood." IOW I wasn't told the LDS church, or the Catholic Church, or the RLDS church. I learned from this interchange that 'righteousness' and the 'true church of the Lamb' is a state of being... Where you can 'become' is where you should be and that is where you will be lead. 'Becoming' is the ultimate purpose of the experiences we have here. It matters not whether 'for one it is here' and 'for another it is there'. Quote
Blessed Posted January 18, 2004 Report Posted January 18, 2004 Originally posted by Peace@Jan 18 2004, 02:12 PM IOW I wasn't told the LDS church, or the Catholic Church, or the RLDS church. I learned from this interchange that 'righteousness' and the 'true church of the Lamb' is a state of being...Where you can 'become' is where you should be and that is where you will be lead.'Becoming' is the ultimate purpose of the experiences we have here. It matters not whether 'for one it is here' and 'for another it is there'. I like that, Peace. I like that a lot. Quote
Cal Posted January 19, 2004 Report Posted January 19, 2004 Peace--truely beautiful. Totally contrary to what the mormon church actually teaches, but whatever floats your boat. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 19, 2004 Report Posted January 19, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Jan 19 2004, 11:33 AM Peace--truely beautiful. Totally contrary to what the mormon church actually teaches, but whatever floats your boat. Truth floats my boat. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted January 19, 2004 Report Posted January 19, 2004 When I asked the Lord specifically where I could find HIS TRUE CHURCH, He told me in no uncertain terms, "My True Church is where there is true and honorable priesthood."I wonder what answer I would have gotten if I asked 'Which' church was His true church. LOLThe Lord has a great sense of humor that way...one must be very specific. :) Quote
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