How Accountable Are We In The End

[StrawberryFields]

We received a phone call yesterday with news that a friend in his mid thirties had died. This man had is once perfect life take a sudden turn with a back injury. He worked a very stressful job while making good money and raising a young family. The back injury, stress, and the fact that he worked on his feet on cement floors didn't help matters. He began taking pain pills to be able to work and provide for his family. He took more pain pills to be able to sleep at night and it wasn't long before he was hooked. His wife left him and took his children with her. His family encouraged him to have back surgery. The back surgery had lead him to become addicted to oxycotton (sp) and his work began to suffer. Through the help of his employer (his brother was part owner) he was placed into a drug rehab program. I believe that is was the type where they basically kidnap the person and place them in a lock down rehab. He wasn't in there long before his father took him out and said that he didn't need something like that. Our friend lost his job, lost his family, and was heavily addicted to drugs and alcohol and no was left without any help. He lived for years, finding employment wherever he could, but nothing lasted. He was even so desperate for drugs that he once robbed a pharmacy.

How strongly will this man be judged?

Did he accomplish his mission in the life?

How Accountable Are We In The END?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 24 2005, 09:21 AM

How strongly will this man be judged?

The same as everybody else.

Did he accomplish his mission in the life?

Obviously not, unless his mission was to ruin the lives of his wife and kids and die alone as a drug addict.

How Accountable Are We In The END?

Drug addicts and alcoholics (or anyone addicted to anything) don't lose the power of choice, at least not until way, way down the road. While high, the choice is obscured or perhaps unavailable but everyday one has the choice to move towards recovery, to decide in favor of morality and family and health, or to turn one's back and go the other direction.

Selfish individuals such as the one you describe make a daily selfish decision that getting high, or buzzed or tweaks or whatever is more important than their responsibility, than love, than family. I expect that we will all be held accountable for our choices.

[Setheus]

I wonder, what about his dad taking him out of rehab? Will this in some way be put on the dad's "record"? After all the son was recievning help (harsh as it may have seemed) and he removed him from that help (and didn't put him into "better/different" help.

Because once a person is commited to a place like that they are not given a choice to stay or go.(unless they commit themself) Its up to the head of that medical facility or the MD in charge of them.

I'm not suggesting that the son's problems were his father's fault. Just that perhaps the father not only didn't help but hindered the son's recovery.

I don't know if this makes sence. I was on watch until 0400. It might be rubbish.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Setheus@Apr 24 2005, 12:16 PM

I wonder, what about his dad taking him out of rehab? Will this in some way be put on the dad's "record"? After all the son was recievning help (harsh as it may have seemed) and he removed him from that help (and didn't put him into "better/different" help.

Because once a person is commited to a place like that they are not given a choice to stay or go.(unless they commit themself) Its up to the head of that medical facility or the MD in charge of them.

I'm not suggesting that the son's problems were his father's fault. Just that perhaps the father not only didn't help but hindered the son's recovery.

I don't know if this makes sence. I was on watch until 0400. It might be rubbish.

I just asked my husband the same question and he said that the father has a very similar problem of prescription drug abuse but he lives in denial. This father has always been very hard on these boys and they live in fear. There was also just recently been a problem of drug abuse with one of grandsons of this overbearing gather/grandfather.

I knew our friend best when he was not in the drug addicted state. He had such promise to have a happy healthy productive life. The back injury was the catalyst that sent his life in the wrong direction. I knew him best then and I am very saddened that his life is gone and he has missed out on his journey, his lives mission.

I know that choices are important, but once in a destructive cycle it is hard to get out with out support and he lost all of that as well. What a waste for him to go that way.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Setheus@Apr 24 2005, 10:16 AM

I wonder, what about his dad taking him out of rehab? Will this in some way be put on the dad's "record"? After all the son was recievning help (harsh as it may have seemed) and he removed him from that help (and didn't put him into "better/different" help.

Because once a person is commited to a place like that they are not given a choice to stay or go.(unless they commit themself) Its up to the head of that medical facility or the MD in charge of them.

I'm not suggesting that the son's problems were his father's fault. Just that perhaps the father not only didn't help but hindered the son's recovery.

I don't know if this makes sence. I was on watch until 0400. It might be rubbish.

Well first, it's illegal to kidnap someone so the original post sounds funny. It is also illegal to hold someone against their will and people can come and go as they please unless they are committed against there will by the legal system. In California it's called a 5150 where you are forcibly held for a 72 hour psychiatric evaluation , after which you can be released or held through further legal means. Interestingly we just had an employee 5150'd for a psychotic break and making terrorist threats.

In the bigger scheme, I don't think the father would be too much to blame, although I doubt what he did helped. Enabling never helps, but the addict himself could decide to stay in rehab or go back to rehab. Ultimately rehad doesn't cure anyone. It is the person themselves, (or God if you will), that does the requisite work to get their head screwed on straight. Rehad is just a tool that hopefully provides motivation to start seeing the situation more clearly.

By the way, the vast majority of those with drug or alcohol problems that ultimately get healthy, do so without rehab and without AA or CA (cocaine) or NA (narcotics); and the majority of those that go into rehab or AA or CA or NA relaspe.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 24 2005, 12:49 PM

Well first, it's illegal to kidnap someone so the original post sounds funny. It is also illegal to hold someone against their will and people can come and go as they please unless they are committed against there will by the legal system. In California it's called a 5150 where you are forcibly held for a 72 hour psychiatric evaluation , after which you can be released or held through further legal means. Interestingly we just had an employee 5150'd for a psychotic break and making terrorist threats.

In the bigger scheme, I don't think the father would be too much to blame, although I doubt what he did helped. Enabling never helps, but the addict himself could decide to stay in rehab or go back to rehab. Ultimately rehad doesn't cure anyone. It is the person themselves, (or God if you will), that does the requisite work to get their head screwed on straight. Rehad is just a tool that hopefully provides motivation to start seeing the situation more clearly.

By the way, the vast majority of those with drug or alcohol problems that ultimately get healthy, do so without rehab and without AA or CA (cocaine) or NA (narcotics); and the majority of those that go into rehab or AA or CA or NA relaspe.

Maybe I used the wrong word with kidnap but I know that it is done by intervention. The intervention was done to help our friend who would not go get help himself. Whether it is legal or only to be used under certain guidelines I do know that it happens. I have also seen it happen on TV when disturbed teens are sent to boot camp for behavioral modification.

I believe that our friend would have gone through the rehab program if it had not been for the pride of his father who took him out. If he would have been able to stay clean with this rehab is unfortunately something we will never know.

Snow, how do addicts get well without programs and a supportive family?

[Lindy]

SF~

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

I think that you could have the most supportive family in the world behind you....but if you (he-she-they-etc) doesn't recognize the problem and want to change their life....it isn't going to happen. I think he would have stood a better chance in life going thru the rehab program if his father didn't interfere. At least it would have given him food for thought, and he would have known where to go when he decided to help himself. Perhaps, he may have made that realization while in the program. Sometimes the what if's are hard to live with.

If he (your friend) was a 10 or 12 year old child, I could understand a father deny any problem and want to save the child from the clutches of a rehab center. I might not agree with that decision, but I would be more understanding. But for a older father interferring with the treatment of his grown son.....that is wrong in my eyes. If it was life threatening, it would have been different, but drug abuse needs to be controlled, or it would be life threatening.

If you want more answers, may I suggest contacting Scott and asking him, he could give you a first hand opinion.

Hope the kids are doing well SF....and give them both a hug for me.

[Amillia]

I didn't see anywhere, how he died. How did he die?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 24 2005, 05:34 PM

I didn't see anywhere, how he died. How did he die?

He died alone and very sad I would guess. We really don't know foe sure but we suspect an overdose.

I feel bad because of all of the joy he missed out on with having a family that he lost because of his problems. I feel bad for his children who will never know the man I knew.

Lindy, my kids say "HI"

[Snow]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 24 2005, 12:31 PM

Snow, how do addicts get well without programs and a supportive family?

The point I am trying to make is not that rehab or family is unimportant but rather that the work that is required to get healthy is required of the individual and the individual alone.

Essentially I think that the alcoholic or addict needs to come to a most basic understanding and acceptance of their problem and a fundamental desire to change. If family or rehab can help you with that, and teach you techniques that you find useful, great but the rehab itself is not essential or is not the cause of the recovery. The individual must become brutally honest with themselves and commit and continually recommit to moving towards health and away from self-destruction. Interestingly, Martha Beck Nibley, who I think is a flake, wrote a worthwhile book on the subject.

Personally I think that accepting and following the gospel is the best path. AA and rehab are poor substitutes. Some people find AA and rehab to be negative rather than positive influences. At best they are a substitute or corollary for the inner spirituality and promise that the gospel offers. Additionally, the addict has to replace, not just eliminate negative behaviors with positive and balanced behaviors. Get rid, one by one, of all the little things that addicts do and think around their addiction and replace them with positive, uplifting things, things like church, school, reading, sports, hobbies, snipe hunting, turkey sculpting, Star Trek figurine collecting, etc.

The worst possible thing a family can do is enable the addict or alcoholic - doing things that allow them to continue with some comfort in their addiction such as allow them to stay in the house if they continue to drink or use, keeping them out of jail, making excuses for them, covering for them. Many people do not get healthy until they are completely out of options and have to come to ultimate grips with the consequences of their activities. The best favor a family could do is to, as soon as the problem is identified, make explicit the consequences and then follow through, no excuses, and not let themselves be manipulated by the addict. ALL addicts and alcoholics are liars and manipulators - everyone of them. They are able to continue their drug or alcohol career by lying and manipulating others to enable their addictions.

The best counsel I ever heard, bar none was given by Boyd K. Packer:

True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel. (ENSIGN, November 1986, p.17)

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 24 2005, 07:38 PM

The best counsel I ever heard, bar none was given by Boyd K. Packer:

True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel. (ENSIGN, November 1986, p.17)

Thanks for sharing this Snow as I believe that it can be applied to many aspects of our lives. :)

[Lindy]

excellent post Snow....I agree with everything you said....and I appreciate you sharing the quote by Boyd K. Packer, it is great counsel; and something I will share with others.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 24 2005, 07:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 24 2005, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 24 2005, 05:34 PM

I didn't see anywhere, how he died. How did he die?

He died alone and very sad I would guess. We really don't know foe sure but we suspect an overdose.

I feel bad because of all of the joy he missed out on with having a family that he lost because of his problems. I feel bad for his children who will never know the man I knew.

Lindy, my kids say "HI"

How sad. It is kind of frightening to think that just one experience in life can totally change things for the rest of our lives.

[pushka]

Snow, I can't help thinking that your attitude to this man and his problems is very harsh...I know that sometimes they say 'you gotta be cruel to be kind', but I must ask what were his doctors doing to try to help wean him off his medication before it got to the stage of addiction? My daughter had major surgery on her right leg in 2003, she had to be treated with morphine, then codeine plus other drugs to help her sleep because the pain was so bad...it would have been very easy for her to become addicted, however her doctors carefully monitored her levels of pain and reduced her prescription drugs accordingly...

It is very easy to judge addicts once they are addicted, but imagine the amount of pain he must have been suffering in order to become addicted? Remember that he was initially taking the pills to try to work in spite of his pain...it must have been terrible when his wife left him, with the children...although obviously we don't know the full details of how his addiction affected their lives together, and this added burden to his life must have contributed to his overall state of mind, lack of ability to control his 'need', and sustain a normal working life.

I feel very sorry for your friend Strawberry...and if God is worth anything I think he will take all of the circumstances into consideration before judging him as harshly as some on this site have done.

[StrawberryFields]

Thank you Pushka.

Our friend despite his problems of drug addiction was a very good man.

Here is a portion of his obituary

¡Ä., was born October, 1966, to¡Ä and ¡Ä the youngest of nine children; and, returned to the loving arms of his Heavenly Father on April, 2005. ¡Ä was a happy and talented man. He excelled in all he did. He was Student body President at ¡Ä High School, served a mission to Korea, and graduated from B.Y.U. He worked at ¡Ä for many years. Among his many talents, he was gifted musically and wrote and performed some of his own music. He lived life to the fullest. He enjoyed hunting, horses, sports, and being in the outdoors. He loved people and had many friends. He enjoyed spending time with family and friends. He married ¡Ä, in the ... L.D.S. Temple. They were later divorced. They had two children, ¡Ä and ¡Ä, whom he loved and cherished. They were the light of his life. ¡Ä is survived by his parents; his two children, and four brothers and four sisters

[Snow]

Originally posted by pushka@Apr 25 2005, 02:53 PM

Snow, I can't help thinking that your attitude to this man and his problems is very harsh...I know that sometimes they say 'you gotta be cruel to be kind', but I must ask what were his doctors doing to try to help wean him off his medication before it got to the stage of addiction? My daughter had major surgery on her right leg in 2003, she had to be treated with morphine, then codeine plus other drugs to help her sleep because the pain was so bad...it would have been very easy for her to become addicted, however her doctors carefully monitored her levels of pain and reduced her prescription drugs accordingly...

It is very easy to judge addicts once they are addicted, but imagine the amount of pain he must have been suffering in order to become addicted? Remember that he was initially taking the pills to try to work in spite of his pain...it must have been terrible when his wife left him, with the children...although obviously we don't know the full details of how his addiction affected their lives together, and this added burden to his life must have contributed to his overall state of mind, lack of ability to control his 'need', and sustain a normal working life.

I feel very sorry for your friend Strawberry...and if God is worth anything I think he will take all of the circumstances into consideration before judging him as harshly as some on this site have done.

I don't know him. I may be harsh but only to the generality, not him specifically.

Regardless of how his growing addiction got started, with legitmate prescribed drugs or crystal meth from the street, all addicts wind up the same. The odds are never good for those who travel too far down that path. They leave heartache and devastion in their wake to anyone close to them. I believe that if one has the ability to extend help, encouragement, referrals, that's wonderful, but never, should one ever enable the addiction by making it easier for an addict to stay in their addiction by shielding them from the consequences of their addiction. That makes matters worse.

But, that being said, an addict is not a victim and won't get healthly as long as they think they are a victim. They have to become honest (because they never are while in their addiciton), take charge of their own recovery, and do it themselves. Note that I think the real way to recovery is by turning to God, not in the abstract way proposed by AA of turning your life over to a higher power ( a power greater than yourself or that you can visualize as greater - such as some obscure pagan earth mother diety or the AA group or even a doorknob) but the true one God who has the power change hearts.

Not that I think that AA doesn't serve a great good, just that it is merely an abstract for the real thing.

[john doe]

One of my former coworkers died last week under eerily similar circumstances. He was an addict, he was in rehab at least twice, his first wife was an addict along with him, she divorced him because they were both sleeping around, he remarried, went to rehab, got out and had a fling with one of his co-rehabbers. He was in the process of going through his second divorce, living with his parents, when he found out he had a spot on one of his kidneys. He called his friends at my place of work and told us he was going in for surgery this week to have it removed and checked out. He reminisced with us about the good times, and looking back, it was almost as if he was saying goodbye to us. The next day he told his parents he didn't feel good and went back to bed while they left for work. When they arrived home, he was dead in his bed. It has been speculated that he may have over-medicated himself trying to manage the pain he was in. He was 34.

While this is a sad story, I find it hard to go around pointing fingers at others trying to determine who could have helped him and didn't. Help was always available to him whenever he wanted it, but he seemed determined to take advantage of that help or reject it when it was convenient to him. When he wanted to be straight, he was a great guy, but when he wanted to party, he never took a thought as to what his actions were doing to his wife, family, and children, and how he was hurting others. From what I can tell, those things never entered his mind, or he purposefully ignored them. In the end, I think he should take a large portion of responsibilty for his actions, not the inaction of others around him to help deter him from his chosen path. With some people, you can't stop them from going down the path of self-destruction if they are enjoying being on it too much to want to go a different way. About the only thing you can do is try to help minimize the effects of what they do to others when they are on that path.

The answers to all this pain and suffering? I don't know if there are any real answers. I think this man will look back on his time here and regret a good number of the things he has done. Maybe he will be judged harshly, and rightly so, for some of his destructive actions. He left a lot of pain, misery, and heartache in his wake. What I don't know is how responsible he really is for what he has done. How much will the Lord forgive because this man didn't have the capacity to handle the situations he got himself into? I think ultimately, though, only God and this man know what he is really responsible for, and what was in his heart. Our job, as survivors of such situations is just to do the best we can to live our lives the way we think God would have us do and not use this man's weaknesses as an excuse to be weak ourselves.

[StrawberryFields]

This was written about our friend in his guest book...

In high school ... was everybodyÃÔ friend. And everybody was his. There is no better measure.

[Guest curvette]

What a sad story. I'm sorry about your friend Strawberry. I don't agree with Snow's assessment that he will be judged "the same as everyone else" because I don't think there is any "across the board" judgement. God "looks on the heart" because He's the only one who truly sees it and knows every detail of our lives and circumstances. I think he paid a premium price by losing his wife and children to his addiction. Maybe that was his hell. I hate drugs. I was prescribed a cough syrup that had codeine in it recently. It worked really well and was the only thing that stopped me from coughing enough to sleep at night. I hesitated to get a refill because I could see how addictive it could be, but I got one anyway. It got me through a couple of weeks and then my cough was gone. I could see just from my temporary dependence how terribly easy it can be to become addicted to drugs when it's hard to function without them. In my case it was lack of sleep, but if it's chronic severe pain, it would be all the harder to do without.

[StrawberryFields]

Curvette,

I so agree on what you say about addiction. I am only one step away from being addicted to drinking so therefore I choose not to drink. Drugs are also a big problem with kids at school. I saw a program on TV where kids will go into stores and buy large quantities of cold medicine and take a bunch of them for a buzz. Prescription anti-anxiety drugs and pain killers are also a problem for kids around here. When I went to school it was only just the druggies that did drugs. Today it is much more widespread and it is closer to 60-70% who dabble into controlled substances to escape a little... to get high.

Is there a support group somewhere for those who are addicted to the computer...something like www.getalife.com? If so I need to sign myself up.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 26 2005, 09:47 PM

Is there a support group somewhere for those who are addicted to the computer...something like www.getalife.com? If so I need to sign myself up.

Good point! How many internet addicts do we have on this board? (I'll raise my hand!)

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette@Apr 26 2005, 07:57 PM

What a sad story. I'm sorry about your friend Strawberry. I don't agree with Snow's assessment that he will be judged "the same as everyone else" because I don't think there is any "across the board" judgement. God "looks on the heart" because He's the only one who truly sees it and knows every detail of our lives and circumstances. I think he paid a premium price by losing his wife and children to his addiction. Maybe that was his hell. I hate drugs. I was prescribed a cough syrup that had codeine in it recently. It worked really well and was the only thing that stopped me from coughing enough to sleep at night. I hesitated to get a refill because I could see how addictive it could be, but I got one anyway. It got me through a couple of weeks and then my cough was gone. I could see just from my temporary dependence how terribly easy it can be to become addicted to drugs when it's hard to function without them. In my case it was lack of sleep, but if it's chronic severe pain, it would be all the harder to do without.

Well natch Veronica.

My point wasn't that God dosen't consider our heart and mind but rather that he considers ALL our hearts and minds equally and you don't get a pass cause your an addict. Addicts become addicted or stay addicted by their own choosing.

My the guy did pay a premium by losing his family but that's not God's judgement upon him. That's just a consequence of his turning away from God and his family and towards selfishness.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 27 2005, 06:12 PM

Well natch Veronica.

Okay Arch. :)

[begood2]

SF,

It is a tragedy that a frightfully large number of people become addicted to drugs each year. This self-destruction can leave an indelible mark of pain on their families and associates.

I like John doe's comment ... "this man didn't have the capacity to handle the situation he got himself into"

It is easy to judge the faults of others but ... only God knows whats in their heart and the mental capacity that they have to handle the situations that they have encountered.

I pray that but for the strength and grace of God so go I!

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by begood2@Apr 29 2005, 06:39 AM

SF,

It is a tragedy that a frightfully large number of people become addicted to drugs each year. This self-destruction can leave an indelible mark of pain on their families and associates.

I like John doe's comment ... "this man didn't have the capacity to handle the situation he got himself into"

It is easy to judge the faults of others but ... only God knows whats in their heart and the mental capacity that they have to handle the situations that they have encountered.

I pray that but for the strength and grace of God so go I!

Thank you, begood2.

Tragedy is something that we all can learn from if we choose to do so. When a person has lost part of his ability to make clear and correct choices either from an addiction, or an injury, it is difficult for us to judge them. My son Nick has a brain injury and he says things to me that we never would have said before his accident. He has frontal lobe damage so he has no inhibitions. With me being his primary care giver I see it all. He tells me everything and he says what ever he wants to me. For someone on the outside looking in, he would appear cruel, crass, and in need of a tongue lashing. It isn't easy being on the receiving end when Nick becomes irritated, but I am sure it isn't easy being him at those times either. I have not seen anyone who knows need judge him for his actions. For those who know Nick they are learning so much about compassion and understanding.

I have learned a lot from the life of our friend. I have learned that when you first start to feel like you are in a hole, to find that shovel and begin to dig THEN. Digging out when you can still see the light is much easier then digging out in the dark. If you do end up needing to dig in the dark it would be much easier with the encouragement of a mentor but there might not always have that support from family or a friend, so you should not count on it. Our friend apparently did not call on the one and only mentor who could find him in the dark and I am not sure why. We had lost contact with him with a job change and a move.

In my own life, I have needed to be reminded to get back on course...to go back to the basics of what I know to be true. I also have learned, or been reminded of something from Snow. Many times when we get off course it is because of our own selfishness. If we should get off a course in drown in both pride and selfishness, it takes a lot of humility to get back to where we can find peace. I believe that it can be a never ending battle for a "fence sitter" to keep finding their way from pride to peace. I want to make sure that I can always remain on the peace side of the fence.