Faith questions

[mountthepavement]

Is faith basically a contract with god? -- he asks us to do particular things and, in the end, we will be paid our dividend?

I am struck by the relevancy of this question after reading Alma 32.

[marshac]

Depending on how you asked that question, I think a random survey of a ward would have the majority answering in the affirmative. Perhaps it's my old non-LDS way of thinking peeking though here, but my own belief is that if the goal is to become more like Christ, then we will do those things regardless of the incentives. I don't know why, but I always cringe a little when I hear about our deeds and works directly equated to some reward... it seems to undermine the selflessness of the act.

[ztodd]

Well put marshac.

I'd say faith is what we express in belief and action to show our love for God, or our hope in God. He asks us to do particular things, and we choose to obey because we love Him and know it will be for our best good.

[applepansy]

Ether 12: 6, 8

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

Based on the above scripture the answer to your question is No. Faith is hope...without faith there is not hope. Faith gives us the reason to act, then after we act we gain the knowledge we need to continue in faith. Line upon line, Precept on precept.

I just read through Alma 32. What in that chapter prompted your question?

[Hemidakota]

Is faith basically a contract with god? -- he asks us to do particular things and, in the end, we will be paid our dividend?

I am struck by the relevancy of this question after reading Alma 32.

Go back and read the Article of Faith, located in the Pearl of Great Price. You will find the answer.

[mountthepavement]

Ether 12: 6, 8

faith is things which are hoped for and not seen

This sounds like what I mean: god tells us how to get those things, albeit spiritual things.

Faith is hope...

You mean this literally? Why do we have two words that often appear juxtaposed yet mean the same thing?

I just read through Alma 32. What in that chapter prompted your question?

Faith sounds like a process of "giving the spirit a try" in these verses, the ultimate end of which is some spiritual reward. Do you agree?

Thanks

[mountthepavement]

Go back and read the Article of Faith, located in the Pearl of Great Price. You will find the answer.

I've never read them, but I assume I can find them on the web. So what is the answer though? I will look for myself, but what do you think?

[mountthepavement]

He asks us to do particular things, and we choose to obey because we love Him and know it will be for our best good.

Then, I will put you down as agreeing with the notion I posed... ?

[mountthepavement]

regardless of the incentives

It's an interesting idea: How else could one be motivated if it is not by incentive or disincentive or simply abjectly? I am not trying to criticize you, only get clarification. This might be an opportunity for you to shine.

[tubaloth]

Is faith basically a contract with god? -- he asks us to do particular things and, in the end, we will be paid our dividend?

For most part yes. The key point, and where faith comes in, is we don't know how we are going to get paid. We just know its for our better good to follow God and his Commandments. We hope that means a reward in the next life. But each choice brings its own test of our faith. I like how it was said we show our Love to God. Thats pretty much it. Do we really love this being that we haven't seen. Do we trust Him 100%!

[applepansy]

This sounds like what I mean: god tells us how to get those things, albeit spiritual things.

You mean this literally? Why do we have two words that often appear juxtaposed yet mean the same thing?

Faith sounds like a process of "giving the spirit a try" in these verses, the ultimate end of which is some spiritual reward. Do you agree?

Thanks

Sometimes the rewards of obedience to God's commandments are temporal, not just spiritual. Example: paying tithing. when we first start paying our tithing its by faith alone. Then the rewards come. Often the rewards for paying a full tithe are temporal.

Yes I mean it literally. Faith is hope in things not seen but hoped for.

Faith is believing in God, following God's commandments. The end result in exercising Faith is preparing for the next life. If that's spiritual to you, then yes. To me its more than spiritual.

[mountthepavement]

The end result in exercising Faith is preparing for the next life. If that's spiritual to you, then yes. To me its more than spiritual.

I shouldn't have limited it in that way. By "more than spiritual" do you mean physical, but other-worldly or something?

[qedd]

Is faith basically a contract with god? -- he asks us to do particular things and, in the end, we will be paid our dividend?

I am struck by the relevancy of this question after reading Alma 32.

Alma is trying to teach the people how they can come to a knowledge of spiritual truth. The process that he describes is one of faith. What is faith?

Suppose we consider ignorance to be starting point and a sure knowledge to be the end goal, then faith is the progress of the journey. Belief is what gives the traveler direction. Hope is the motivation to take the journey. Faith is the result of the traveler acting on his belief and hope -- but this requires an open and honest mind (humility) to evaluate and interpret the result. Faith refines the belief and and hope, leading to further action, thus greater faith... and so on.

Alma is asking the people to use the testimony of his faith to seed their belief and hope and take the first step. The open and honest evaluation and interpretation of the results would confirm or deny his testimony.

What is the ultimate reward for faith? Knowledge. Knowledge empowers. Knowledge presents opportunity. The faith gained in pursuit of one truth can seed or strengthen the faith of other truths.

Is faith a contract with deity? No. The reward is the natural result of the action taken. Call it karma, cause and effect, or the law of the harvest -- it makes no difference. You reap what you sow. It is through faith that we come to make covenants with Him.

This is how I view faith and what Alma was trying to convey - others may differ with me.

[applepansy]

I shouldn't have limited it in that way. By "more than spiritual" do you mean physical, but other-worldly or something?

Limited what? in what way?

[mountthepavement]

Alma is trying to teach the people how they can come to a knowledge of spiritual truth. The process that he describes is one of faith. What is faith?

Suppose we consider ignorance to be starting point and a sure knowledge to be the end goal, then faith is the progress of the journey. Belief is what gives the traveler direction. Hope is the motivation to take the journey. Faith is the result of the traveler acting on his belief and hope -- but this requires an open and honest mind (humility) to evaluate and interpret the result. Faith refines the belief and and hope, leading to further action, thus greater faith... and so on.

Alma is asking the people to use the testimony of his faith to seed their belief and hope and take the first step. The open and honest evaluation and interpretation of the results would confirm or deny his testimony.

What is the ultimate reward for faith? Knowledge. Knowledge empowers. Knowledge presents opportunity. The faith gained in pursuit of one truth can seed or strengthen the faith of other truths.

Is faith a contract with deity? No. The reward is the natural result of the action taken. Call it karma, cause and effect, or the law of the harvest -- it makes no difference. You reap what you sow. It is through faith that we come to make covenants with Him.

This is how I view faith and what Alma was trying to convey - others may differ with me.

Okay, to put it succinctly, is faith acting out of less than perfect knowledge (together with the belief that there is at least one with perfect knowledge who has assured you that this is the best course of action etc.)?

Then, what type of knowledge do you mean? What precisely do you mean by this word?

[mountthepavement]

Limited what? in what way?

You said "more than spiritual," which implies to me that I had limited the description of the rewards of which we have been speaking too greatly: apparently, you find that word does not completely describe your beliefs concerning, I assume, the afterlife. Please clarify this for me.

[mountthepavement]

General follow-up:

Is faith always future-oriented?

Edited June 15, 2009 by mountthepavement

[applepansy]

Alma is trying to teach the people how they can come to a knowledge of spiritual truth. The process that he describes is one of faith. What is faith?

Suppose we consider ignorance to be starting point and a sure knowledge to be the end goal, then faith is the progress of the journey. Belief is what gives the traveler direction. Hope is the motivation to take the journey. Faith is the result of the traveler acting on his belief and hope -- but this requires an open and honest mind (humility) to evaluate and interpret the result. Faith refines the belief and and hope, leading to further action, thus greater faith... and so on.

Alma is asking the people to use the testimony of his faith to seed their belief and hope and take the first step. The open and honest evaluation and interpretation of the results would confirm or deny his testimony.

What is the ultimate reward for faith? Knowledge. Knowledge empowers. Knowledge presents opportunity. The faith gained in pursuit of one truth can seed or strengthen the faith of other truths.

Is faith a contract with deity? No. The reward is the natural result of the action taken. Call it karma, cause and effect, or the law of the harvest -- it makes no difference. You reap what you sow. It is through faith that we come to make covenants with Him.

This is how I view faith and what Alma was trying to convey - others may differ with me.

Great explanation and summary.

thanks

[mountthepavement]

Faith refines the belief and and hope, leading to further action, thus greater faith... and so on.

Is "recursive" a useful word to apply to faith, then?

[applepansy]

You said "more than spiritual," which implies to me that I had limited the description of the rewards of which we have been speaking too greatly: apparently, you find that word does not completely describe your beliefs concerning, I assume, the afterlife. Please clarify this for me.

I believe we are on a journey. We are here in this life. We have been presented with the Plan of Salvation. We will move on to the next life, resurrection, judgement and eventually one of the three kingdoms (hopefully). We do not have a total and clear understanding of what comes after that ...but there will be something.

Faith in this life (here and now) moves us forward not only in this life but in the next as well.

[mountthepavement]

I believe we are on a journey. We are here in this life. We have been presented with the Plan of Salvation. We will move on to the next life, resurrection, judgement and eventually one of the three kingdoms (hopefully). We do not have a total and clear understanding of what comes after that ...but there will be something.

Faith in this life (here and now) moves us forward not only in this life but in the next as well.

The concept of moving forward I take as a metaphor for striving for "the good." Can you explain in your own words what is good and why? I know I may ask this question at the risk of starting to sound like Pilate.

[applepansy]

Where is this going?

[Justice]

But, it doesn't matter what our dividend is. If we believe in Christ, we will do those works because we know they are right, and because we love Him and what He stands for.

The dividend is the icing on the cake.

[mountthepavement]

Where is this going?

Wherever you like or nowhere. I don't have a pre-arranged goal though. Just seem like legitimate questions. Don't feel picked on: I could ask similar sorts of questions to non-LDS.

[mountthepavement]

But, it doesn't matter what our dividend is. If we believe in Christ, we will do those works because we know they are right, and because we love Him and what He stands for.

The dividend is the icing on the cake.

Sounds fair.

Is it that we know Christ is right or have faith that he is true? Or do we increase in knowledge, but it never becomes perfect (my impression from Alma 32)?