Repentence:Salvation::Chicken:Egg?

[mountthepavement]

Self-explanatory, unless you want to substitute "cause:effect" or something for the latter.

[beefche]

Call me slow, but I don't understand what you're asking. Could you take pity on a poor cow and spell it out?

[marshac]

ditto for me

[mountthepavement]

k, sorry, I like being vague since it might open up different possible directions of discussion.

But:

How do we get from being a sinner to being saved. If we must repent, but we are sinners and our will is corrupt, don't we face a paradox? An answer may be that we are saved by the intervention of a savior: sensible enough. But isn't repentance a requirement for this intervention? Back to square one.

How do we "pick ourselves up by our bootstraps." What I should have said, perhaps, is "Repentance... Salvation: Bootstrap problem?"

[martybess]

The sinner has a paradigm shift. He comes to want change. But I'm not sure I'm following yet.

[mountthepavement]

The sinner has a paradigm shift. He comes to want change. But I'm not sure I'm following yet.

Is repentance wanting change or acting out change? I can think of an alcoholic weeping over his sins, but staying wedded to the bottle. So how does one go from being an unrepentant sinner to being a repentant sinner (if there is such a thing) to being saved, given that one's will is corrupt? Is it true that the will is corrupt? I do not know if that is LDS' view.

[beefche]

How do we "pick ourselves up by our bootstraps." What I should have said, perhaps, is "Repentance... Salvation: Bootstrap problem?"

Heehee, you make me want to quote Pirates of the Carribbean...."Bootstrap's bootstraps..."

[martybess]

Is repentance wanting change or acting out change? I can think of an alcoholic weeping over his sins, but staying wedded to the bottle. So how does one go from being an unrepentant sinner to being a repentant sinner (if there is such a thing) to being saved, given that one's will is corrupt? Is it true that the will is corrupt? I do not know if that is LDS' view.

The alcoholic who is weeping may already want change. You may wake up one day and say today I'm going to change and do it. So yes it's acting out of change. That's the key the acting. Many time we may have a change moment and ignore it. That's what we are faced with everyday. The acting or the doing the Lord will. I think will have change moments all the time. It's the HG.

Edited June 17, 2009 by martybess
spelling

[JohnnyRudick]

Self-explanatory, unless you want to substitute "cause:effect" or something for the latter.

OK, off the cuff;

The Light of Christ is given to every person which gives a sense of what is right and what is wrong.

This is a more perfect intelligence given to help our flesh which supersedes that which is given to all flesh.

That is a good start to help[ get us going.

The Holy Ghost will visit a person and tug at them toward the direction God would have them go.

God sends them a preacher during one of these tugs.

During the presentation of the Gospel if the person will aknowledge the witness that the

light of Christ is shining on the individual during the discussion or during reading the Scriptures

and will humbly ask God will pure intent to give in to this "tug" the Holy Ghost will testify

in that persons soul another witness of it's truthfulness.

The person humbly acknowledges to God in the Name of Jesus Christ, the need of Jesus in their life,

the need for the redeemer and His sacrifice for our sins and a change in our life.

Then the person reports to the Missionaries that He/she has been"Saved" by Jesus Christ and now

wishes to be obedient to the Savior in Baptism and joining His Church and continuing in the walk that he/she has started.

This person is now "Saved";)

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 17, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[mountthepavement]

OK, off the cuff;

The Light of Christ is given to every person which gives a sense of what is right and what is wrong.

This is a more perfect intelligence given to help our flesh which supersedes that which is given to all flesh.

That is a good start to help[ get us going.

The Holy Ghost will visit a person and tug at them toward the direction God would have them go.

God sends them a preacher during one of these tugs.

During the presentation of the Gospel if the person will aknowledge the witness that the

light of Christ is shining on the individual during the discussion or during reading the Scriptures

and will humbly ask God will pure intent to give in to this "tug" the Holy Ghost will testify

in that persons soul another witness of it's truthfulness.

The person humbly acknowledges to God in the Name of Jesus Christ, the need of Jesus in their life,

the need for the redeemer and His sacrifice for our sins and a change in our life.

Then the person reports to the Missionaries that He/she has been"Saved" by Jesus Christ and now

wishes to be obedient to the Savior in Baptism and joining His Church and continuing in the walk that he/she has started.

This person is now "Saved";)

Bro. Rudick

What if they lie about being "saved"?

[JohnnyRudick]

What if they lie about being "saved"?

Then they "Lied about being "Saved".

That is all there is too it.

As I said in an earlier thread, God will sort it out;)

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the

gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received,

and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in

memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Bro. Rudick

[Justice]

Is repentance wanting change or acting out change? I can think of an alcoholic weeping over his sins, but staying wedded to the bottle. So how does one go from being an unrepentant sinner to being a repentant sinner (if there is such a thing) to being saved, given that one's will is corrupt? Is it true that the will is corrupt? I do not know if that is LDS' view.

This is rather complicated.

When a person repents of a sin they will no longer commit that sin. If they continue to commit that sin, their repentance was not complete.

However, the goal is to become converted to Jesus Christ. That means we follow His lead or example and give up our will for God's will. Repentance is the process we have been given to bring this about.

This can be done, and has been done. Then, a person no longer desires sin. That is really what repentance is about. Most other Christian religions teach this is impossible for man.

I diagree with the notion that one must gain eternal life before he can repent. For most people it is a life long process. It's a struggle that asks sacrifice of sin one's whole life. One by one a person implements the steps of repentance as he finds fault with himself.

[Islander]

Faith the Lord will lead us to seek repentance for it is thru faith that we receive a witness of the Spirit that indeed Christ has Atone for our sin and tht by faith in Him and the grace that He freely offers us we can be forgiven. So, once we ahve received this witness we seek to repent and forsake our sins and follow in His footsteps. We can not claim we have truly repented and go back "like a dog to its vomit" as the scripture says. We may be sorry, sick or ashamed of returning to our sin but it is not true repentance.

President Joseph F. Smith stated:

“True repentance is not only sorrow for sins and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light. Not only so, but to make restitution so far as is possible for all the wrongs that we have done, to pay our debts and restore to God and man their rights, that which is due them from us. This is true repentance and the exercise of the will and all the powers of body and mind is demanded to complete this glorious work of repentance.”

Remember the Savior said to the adulterous woman "...Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. John 8:11

[martybess]

So is repentance wanting change or acting out change?

[Guest TheLutheran]

. . . This can be done, and has been done. Then, a person no longer desires sin. That is really what repentance is about. Most other Christian religions teach this is impossible for man. . . .

I can understand that a person no longer desires sin, but LDS actually do become sinless? Is this common amongst the bretheren? I suppose then they no longer need Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

[JohnnyRudick]

I can understand that a person no longer desires sin, but LDS actually do become sinless? Is this common amongst the bretheren? I suppose then they no longer need Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

Not sure you understood what he meant:confused:

The desire to live a life in Jesus Christ is Stronger.

We walk in our faith day by day in the keeping power of the Holy Ghost.

With out Jesus we would go back to our old ugly selves.

Bro. Rudick

[Dravin]

I can understand that a person no longer desires sin, but LDS actually do become sinless? Is this common amongst the bretheren? I suppose then they no longer need Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

I'm 99.9% certain that he means we can no longer desire to sin. If he does mean that a good Latter-Day Saint is sinless then he's wrong, but once again, I'm fairly sure that's not what he's saying.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Dravin

[Traveler]

Self-explanatory, unless you want to substitute "cause:effect" or something for the latter.

In the parable of the sewer – Jesus teaches that there is a time that expires from when the seed is planted before the fruit of salvations is harvested. Jesus also taught that one must forgive others before G-d will forgive them. According to the ancient concept of Covenant – a disciple must demonstrate loyalty and faith in the “Law Giver” to inherit the 3 customary benefits of the covenant (example the covenant of Abraham). The symbolic references of the benefits are as follows:

1. A promised land -> A place in heaven.

2. Enduring posterity -> Eternal or Everlasting Life.

3. Protection and deliverance from enemies -> Redemption from sin.

The Traveler