Believing Christ

[LostSheep]

I'm not really ever the one to suggest a book to anyone. But this book was too awesome not to.

I just finished reading the book "Believing Christ" while on my plane to Kansas City. My seminary teacher gave it to me as a personal gift at the end of my school year. Wow (Not sure what the other people around me on the plane thought when I started crying). This is a MUST read for anyone. Especially if your a lost sheep. This is the most powerful book I've ever read. This will help anyone better understand the atonement. And it is easy to understand. Best $20 you will ever spend. I promise.

[mlbrowninwa]

I will pick this up and read it soon. Reading The 5000 Year Leap right now.

[tubaloth]

One of the books every person needs to read, not just LDS members.

[LostSheep]

One of the books every person needs to read, not just LDS members.

Agreed...No one can read this book and honestly say that we are not Christians.

[Hemidakota]

I'm not really ever the one to suggest a book to anyone. But this book was too awesome not to.

I just finished reading the book "Believing Christ" while on my plane to Kansas City. My seminary teacher gave it to me as a personal gift at the end of my school year. Wow (Not sure what the other people around me on the plane thought when I started crying). This is a MUST read for anyone. Especially if your a lost sheep. This is the most powerful book I've ever read. This will help anyone better understand the atonement. And it is easy to understand. Best $20 you will ever spend. I promise.

Very helpful for those who are learning the meaning of the Atonement.

[Vanilla]

I LOVE that book!!!

I'm glad you liked it too.

:-)

[Dr T]

Nillers liked that book too. :)

[Carl62]

I'm not really ever the one to suggest a book to anyone. But this book was too awesome not to.

I just finished reading the book "Believing Christ" while on my plane to Kansas City. My seminary teacher gave it to me as a personal gift at the end of my school year. Wow (Not sure what the other people around me on the plane thought when I started crying). This is a MUST read for anyone. Especially if your a lost sheep. This is the most powerful book I've ever read. This will help anyone better understand the atonement. And it is easy to understand. Best $20 you will ever spend. I promise.

DEFINITELY check it out!

[tefor]

That book is one of the best antidotes I know of to the insane perfectionism which continues to haunt me from time to time. Next to the scriptures, it should be required reading for everybody in the Church.

Check out The Broken Heart by Bruce C. Hafen, also. One of the most insightful, eloquently written pieces on how the Atonement interacts with the messiness of daily life.

[rameumptom]

Stephen Robinson's book was perhaps the first giant move by the Church to move away from the pre-1980s LDS view on salvation to an updated scriptural based version.

There are other views now coming out that are slightly different than in Believing Christ, but all focus much more on grace, rather than on our own obedience. And this is very good, because at one time I was wearing myself out trying to be perfect, also (like Robinson's wife).

[martybess]

Is that "Believing Christ - The Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News" by, Stephen Edward Robinson? I'm going to order it. Can get it in paperback for 7 bucks.

Thanks

Edited June 26, 2009 by martybess

[LostSheep]

Is that "Believing Christ - The Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News" by, Stephen Edward Robinson? I'm going to order it. Can get it in paperback for 7 bucks.

Thanks

Yep, thats the one.

[Dr T]

The main issue for me was that I do not believe that I "earn" salvation so the metaphor of the bike saying "after all we can do" which you are all probably familiar with still means that humans need to earn their way into salvation/heaven. That does not fit with my understanding of the Bible at all.

[LostSheep]

The main issue for me was that I do not believe that I "earn" salvation so the metaphor of the bike saying "after all we can do" which you are all probably familiar with still means that humans need to earn their way into salvation/heaven. That does not fit with my understanding of the Bible at all.

The book also says (and this is one of my favorite points it makes), we do not deserve to be saved. No one does. Otherwise it would be justice that saves us, not grace. You cannot deserve grace. Grace is only for the sinners.

[Dr T]

Thanks for that. You're correct, in my view, grace is undeserved and therefore the concept of "making up the rest" concept does not sit well with me. It's Jesus and his completion. AMEN

[Misshalfway]

Thanks for that. You're correct, in my view, grace is undeserved and therefore the concept of "making up the rest" concept does not sit well with me. It's Jesus and his completion. AMEN

Yeah.,... I can see how that verbage wouldn't sit well with you. I think sometimes even LDS people misunderstand what this means.

All this means is that something is required of us before Jesus extends his grace to us. It isn't "earning" anything. It is simply meeting the requirements of obedience from my Master.

It's just like my kids. They don't earn their way around my house in any degree. I support their lives completely. But I give them responsibility for themselves and require certain obedience from them before they can go out to play or before I extend to them more freedom or privilage.

Grace is opened to us through our commitment, obedience, and repentance. We can't "earn" salvation. But perhaps we "qualify" or become worthy of his grace. I mean grace, even for the protestant world isn't extended to every person who walks the planet. I think perhaps we might differ on what exactly it is that opens grace to us. And it will probably keep us in too different camps, but I think we are closer than we think. :)

[Hemidakota]

Why do people get hang up with semantics of a simple word?

[Misshalfway]

Why do people get hang up with semantics of a simple word?

Could it be......Satan? LOL (Sorry....I was just having a Saturday Night live moment.)

[rameumptom]

Robinson's view in his book is a great step forward from where the Church was before. In the pre-1980s, obedience was often taught to the extent that many members felt they had to completely earn their salvation (such as Robinson's wife in the first story in the book).

It often comes from an over-emphasis of one quality over another equally as important quality. Obedience IS important to salvation. But it isn't any more important than grace is.

Nephi taught "for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo." (2 Ne 25:23). Many members see that as a requirement for obedience and works to save ourselves.

However, the converted Lamanite King, Anti-Nephi-Lehi, in the Book of Mormon explains it to us: "11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to atake them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain" (Alma 24:11).

All we can do: Repent.

Where obedience comes into play is in the level of salvation we receive. All are saved by grace, who do not deny the Gift of the Holy Ghost - basically to become an absolute and total enemy to Christ, even as Satan is. Most humans will never achieve that level of enmity. Through Christ's grace, all will resurrect, and almost all mankind will be saved from the 2nd death (Alma 11-12). Almost all God's children will be given a kingdom of heaven.

Now, what we BECOME determines the level of heaven we are willing to receive. Alma 12 says that many will not want to stand in the presence of God in that day. Does that mean they must go to hell for eternity, simply because of a few decades of sin here? No. It means they will receive the level of heaven that makes them happiest, even if it isn't in the continual presence and fullness of God's glory. If they receive a portion of God's glory and presence, then they are still blessed.

But for someone who cannot/will not endure God's full presence, to remain there would be worse than dwelling in hell (Mormon 9:3-4). That is not God's purpose to have his children suffer eternally, but to give them as much salvation and glory as they are willing/able to receive, by what they have Become through obedience and faithfulness.

We all should rejoice that God has prepared such a plan, and each of us shout praises to God for saving us through Christ Jesus! I am saved in Christ. I hope to receive a fullness of his blessings through my faithfulness and becoming as He is. I am grateful to know I've escaped the Second Death through our Savior's atonement and grace.

[LostSheep]

Robinson's view in his book is a great step forward from where the Church was before. In the pre-1980s, obedience was often taught to the extent that many members felt they had to completely earn their salvation (such as Robinson's wife in the first story in the book).

It often comes from an over-emphasis of one quality over another equally as important quality. Obedience IS important to salvation. But it isn't any more important than grace is.

Nephi taught "for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo." (2 Ne 25:23). Many members see that as a requirement for obedience and works to save ourselves.

However, the converted Lamanite King, Anti-Nephi-Lehi, in the Book of Mormon explains it to us: "11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to atake them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain" (Alma 24:11).

All we can do: Repent.

Where obedience comes into play is in the level of salvation we receive. All are saved by grace, who do not deny the Gift of the Holy Ghost - basically to become an absolute and total enemy to Christ, even as Satan is. Most humans will never achieve that level of enmity. Through Christ's grace, all will resurrect, and almost all mankind will be saved from the 2nd death (Alma 11-12). Almost all God's children will be given a kingdom of heaven.

Now, what we BECOME determines the level of heaven we are willing to receive. Alma 12 says that many will not want to stand in the presence of God in that day. Does that mean they must go to hell for eternity, simply because of a few decades of sin here? No. It means they will receive the level of heaven that makes them happiest, even if it isn't in the continual presence and fullness of God's glory. If they receive a portion of God's glory and presence, then they are still blessed.

But for someone who cannot/will not endure God's full presence, to remain there would be worse than dwelling in hell (Mormon 9:3-4). That is not God's purpose to have his children suffer eternally, but to give them as much salvation and glory as they are willing/able to receive, by what they have Become through obedience and faithfulness.

We all should rejoice that God has prepared such a plan, and each of us shout praises to God for saving us through Christ Jesus! I am saved in Christ. I hope to receive a fullness of his blessings through my faithfulness and becoming as He is. I am grateful to know I've escaped the Second Death through our Savior's atonement and grace.

Rameumptom....are you LDS?

[Dr T]

Cause the "simple" word is very important I think. 1/2, that is my point. If you mean acceptance of Christ then maybe. I just know that "while we were yet sinners Christ died for me." He did it, I accept it and if you see that as something to "qualify" then maybe. To "become worthy of his grace" is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not worth to become, nothing I do makes me more worthy of needing His grace and I'm thankful for that because it's needed and unable to be earned (I know you said we can't earn it). I guess I just come down to the importance of seeing it for what it is, Christ's life and death for me and not from me. It is by grace and not by works so no man can boast sort of thing.

[LostSheep]

Cause the "simple" word is very important I think. 1/2, that is my point. If you mean acceptance of Christ then maybe. I just know that "while we were yet sinners Christ died for me." He did it, I accept it and if you see that as something to "qualify" then maybe. To "become worthy of his grace" is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not worth to become, nothing I do makes me more worthy of needing His grace and I'm thankful for that because it's needed and unable to be earned (I know you said we can't earn it). I guess I just come down to the importance of seeing it for what it is, Christ's life and death for me and not from me. It is by grace and not by works so no man can boast sort of thing.

But we are not saved by grace alone...the book explains this pretty well. Many Christians, including LDS members don't seem to understand the balance here.

Here's how the book described it...

Someone calls you and offers you a free trip to Hawaii if you simply respond to the offer before a certain date. Just because you have to do something, doesn't mean it's still not grace. The person that offers is not going to force this vacation down your throat. (Sorry, that's the best I could describe it.)

[Dr T]

That's ok. I have read the book too. You said, "But we are not saved by grace alone..." so would you say that if I believe in Jesus' life, death and resurrection is it is NOT sufficient for him to pardon my sins? I'd guess that you would say no it's not enough. Ok, so then what do we add to it? Maybe you might say, "Then we have to X" ok, what is X and also how is that not works and then in that case how is that not putting it on us to "earn" it. In a way it seems to be saying that his work is not enough and therefore it is upon us to actually do the rest. In that case it does not seem like a gift but something that we need to achieve. I'd say the good works that we do are only an outpouring of our faith but NOT the thing that earns it. Jesus said, "It is finished". Thank you God. :)

[Misshalfway]

Cause the "simple" word is very important I think. 1/2, that is my point. If you mean acceptance of Christ then maybe. I just know that "while we were yet sinners Christ died for me." He did it, I accept it and if you see that as something to "qualify" then maybe. To "become worthy of his grace" is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not worth to become, nothing I do makes me more worthy of needing His grace and I'm thankful for that because it's needed and unable to be earned (I know you said we can't earn it). I guess I just come down to the importance of seeing it for what it is, Christ's life and death for me and not from me. It is by grace and not by works so no man can boast sort of thing.

Why wouldn't repentance make one more worthy?

I think this IS where the LDS perspective departs because we believe we are not saved IN our sinful state, but FROM our sins.

In my mind, this is what is meant by becoming a new creature in Christ and becoming spiritually born again, after we prove ourselves worthy of the gift by becoming humble like a child and willing to give away our sins. I can't actually get rid of the stain, but I can be humble enough to present myself as contrite. But if I do repent and Christ does change me, then aren't I absolutely worthy?

And I think anyone who has been thru this process and who has as the BofM says...able "to sing the song of redeeming love" would ever believe they did anything of which to boast. I think on that score, you and me are definitely on the same page. :)

[Misshalfway]

I'd say the good works that we do are only an outpouring of our faith but NOT the thing that earns it. Jesus said, "It is finished". Thank you God. :)

I think this is the point that so many of us try to make when discussing grace and works with other faiths. I think all obedience is absolutely an act of faith, not of earning.

But faith DOES bring results....so in that regard it is very much a cause/effect thing. And for the LDS, one can't expect salvation on belief alone. If I am not acting properly in my life, then I am under condemnation and in sin. Exhaltation comes to those who have faith repent and who are baptized and who endure to the end in obedience. Not because we earn it..... but because we are keeping our word after making a covenant to live this way. And thru the process of obedience, the miracle of Christ happens because we are changed spiritually to become more like Him. We don't have to be sinful anymore. That in my mind is very good news.