Neutrality

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I had a personal revelation...not from God...at least I don't think so. I think this one came from my brain...so I am just sharing it...

I was blaming the Church for problems in my own life, which is ridiculous because the Church is not one person, or even a group of people. It started out that way, but it has become a living, breathing "organism". It is a man-made organism, of course. But still an organism.

The Church sustains itself through missionary work, gaining converts, who then pay tithing to support its growth. Without members, it will die.

Just as a horse seeks out grass, eats it, providing nutrients for its today to let it grow.

If a horse eats my dinner, do I get mad at it? No...I accept that it was hungry. If the Church puts pressures on my family to conform to certain behaviors which conflict with mine, should I be angry? No...it is just sustaining itself...surviving.

I chose to join the Church...one could say I was just "feeding the horse". Now I regret it because the horse ate my lawn. My own fault. I shouldn't blame the horse!

How can one be angry at an organism? All things do what it is in their nature to do (simple taoism).

It will continue to exist depite any problems I have with it, and despite the protests of anti-mormons. The only logical solution is to become NEUTRAL towards it...the same way I feel neutral towards oil, for example.

Of course if you are LDS, I don't expect you to think this way. Calling the Church an organism may trivialize it...that is not my intention...I am just sharing my point of view.

ANd I thought I would share this for the benefit of non-mormons, because I believe it is a better way to take than the anti-mormon road.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Just as a horse seeks out grass, eats it, providing nutrients for its today to let it grow.

Ooops. That should say "body".

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@May 11 2005, 01:38 PM

I had a personal revelation...not from God...at least I don't think so. I think this one came from my brain...so I am just sharing it...

I was blaming the Church for problems in my own life, which is ridiculous because the Church is not one person, or even a group of people. It started out that way, but it has become a living, breathing "organism". It is a man-made organism, of course. But still an organism.

The Church sustains itself through missionary work, gaining converts, who then pay tithing to support its growth. Without members, it will die.

Just as a horse seeks out grass, eats it, providing nutrients for its today to let it grow.

If a horse eats my dinner, do I get mad at it? No...I accept that it was hungry. If the Church puts pressures on my family to conform to certain behaviors which conflict with mine, should I be angry? No...it is just sustaining itself...surviving.

I chose to join the Church...one could say I was just "feeding the horse". Now I regret it because the horse ate my lawn. My own fault. I shouldn't blame the horse!

How can one be angry at an organism? All things do what it is in their nature to do (simple taoism).

It will continue to exist depite any problems I have with it, and despite the protests of anti-mormons. The only logical solution is to become NEUTRAL towards it...the same way I feel neutral towards oil, for example.

Of course if you are LDS, I don't expect you to think this way. Calling the Church an organism may trivialize it...that is not my intention...I am just sharing my point of view.

ANd I thought I would share this for the benefit of non-mormons, because I believe it is a better way to take than the anti-mormon road.

Hey TS,

I understand what you are saying and I especially think that this part is good...

"ANd I thought I would share this for the benefit of non-mormons, because I believe it is a better way to take than the anti-mormon road."

Neutral is good... Sometimes I just call it being numb.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@May 11 2005, 12:38 PM

I had a personal revelation...not from God...at least I don't think so. I think this one came from my brain...so I am just sharing it...

I was blaming the Church for problems in my own life, which is ridiculous because the Church is not one person, or even a group of people. It started out that way, but it has become a living, breathing "organism". It is a man-made organism, of course. But still an organism.

The Church sustains itself through missionary work, gaining converts, who then pay tithing to support its growth. Without members, it will die.

Just as a horse seeks out grass, eats it, providing nutrients for its today to let it grow.

If a horse eats my dinner, do I get mad at it? No...I accept that it was hungry. If the Church puts pressures on my family to conform to certain behaviors which conflict with mine, should I be angry? No...it is just sustaining itself...surviving.

I chose to join the Church...one could say I was just "feeding the horse". Now I regret it because the horse ate my lawn. My own fault. I shouldn't blame the horse!

How can one be angry at an organism? All things do what it is in their nature to do (simple taoism).

It will continue to exist depite any problems I have with it, and despite the protests of anti-mormons. The only logical solution is to become NEUTRAL towards it...the same way I feel neutral towards oil, for example.

Of course if you are LDS, I don't expect you to think this way. Calling the Church an organism may trivialize it...that is not my intention...I am just sharing my point of view.

ANd I thought I would share this for the benefit of non-mormons, because I believe it is a better way to take than the anti-mormon road.

Forgive me for intruding on your ideas. Using the basis of Eastern thought.

Your grass?

Does not hording more than your use create the conflict?

To live in harmony – one must feed and protect the horse they ride. Therefore, there is grass, horses and one in need of a ride but if you have nowhere to ride there is no need for concern of grass or horses and harmony is an illusion.

The Traveler

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Traveler@May 11 2005, 03:37 PM

Forgive me for intruding on your ideas. Using the basis of Eastern thought.

Your grass?

Does not hording more than your use create the conflict?

This COULD take me deeper into the metaphor than I care to go...but I will try to answer...

Let's define our metaphors more clearly:

Horse = Church

Hay = Faith

Nutrients = Money and Time

Grass = Integrity

The Horse generally eats Hay which generates Nutrients.

(The Church generally lives on Faith, which generates Money and participation, or Time)

I did not have a farm to grow Hay. I had a large yard full of Grass though.

(I did not have much Faith, but I did have my Integrity)

I fed the Horse my Grass.

(I sacrificed too much Integrity...pretending to believe in things I did not)

To live in harmony – one must feed and protect the horse they ride.  Therefore, there is grass, horses and one in need of a ride but if you have nowhere to ride there is no need for concern of grass or horses and harmony is an illusion.

Exactly.

My in-laws have a Horse, and plenty of Hay.

When they visited me on their Horse, the Horse was hungry.

I did not need a "ride", but I fed the horse my Grass, so my in-laws could enjoy a better ride home.

But the Horse ate all my Grass, and now I don't have a lawn. I can grow more Grass, so I can continue to feed my in-law's horse when they visit. But now I chose to put a fence up around my Grass, and just feed the Horse small portions.

After all, its not my Horse.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@May 11 2005, 04:11 PM

But now I chose to put a fence up around my Grass, and just feed the Horse small portions.

After all, its not my Horse.

Another metaphor:

Dog = My Beliefs

And though you say I do not need the Grass...I do!

I give a little Grass to the Horse, and fence in the rest of my yard so my Dog can enjoy it.

This is too much fun.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Another metaphor:

The Ride = The Promise of the Celestial Kingdom

Leash = Neutrality

My conclusion:

Though I do not have any hay or a horse, I don't really want a Ride.

My in-laws visit and I let the horse eat some of my grass, but not all of it.

The grass is too valuable to my dog, who lives in the yard.

The dog spends alot of time barking at the horse, but I keep him on a Leash.

[pushka]

I think this post is BARKING mad!!!!

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@May 11 2005, 04:11 PM

Let's define our metaphors more clearly:

Horse = Church

Hay = Faith

Nutrients = Money and Time

Grass = Integrity

The Horse generally eats Hay which generates Nutrients.

(The Church generally lives on Faith, which generates Money and participation, or Time)

I did not have a farm to grow Hay.  I had a large yard full of Grass though.

(I did not have much Faith, but I did have my Integrity)

I fed the Horse my Grass.

(I sacrificed too much Integrity...pretending to believe in things I did not)

To live in harmony – one must feed and protect the horse they ride.  Therefore, there is grass, horses and one in need of a ride but if you have nowhere to ride there is no need for concern of grass or horses and harmony is an illusion.

Exactly.

My in-laws have a Horse, and plenty of Hay.

When they visited me on their Horse, the Horse was hungry.

I did not need a "ride", but I fed the horse my Grass, so my in-laws could enjoy a better ride home.

But the Horse ate all my Grass, and now I don't have a lawn. I can grow more Grass, so I can continue to feed my in-law's horse when they visit. But now I chose to put a fence up around my Grass, and just feed the Horse small portions.

After all, its not my Horse.

I think you explained your metaphor quite well Taoist. I loved reading it so much that I had to quote it!

M.

[Guest]

TS,

It's been while, but your post interested me. I tried to write my response several times, but was never fully satisfied, so forgive me if this seems a bit out of sorts. I appreciate your clarification on the analogy, so let me just re-iterate to ensure my understanding:

Definitions found at http://dictionary.reference.com

Here I took the one that I thought most represented your analogy, but there are plenty of definitions

Horse = Church = The company of all Christians regarded as a spiritual body.

Hay = Faith = 1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny

Nutrients = Money and Time = resources

Grass = Integrity = Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

So if I read this right, you have no "Hay" or believe in a supernatural power or powers, but you have "grass", or a moral/ethical code.

I think your analogy about a farm vs. a yard is a bit limited though. You make the assumption that, like the finite amount of space you own around your house, that you have only a finite amount of space for your Hay and Grass. I would say that we have an infinite capacity for both, limited only by our own understanding and willingness to submit to our own "Grass", and "Hay", therby allowing it to grow and spread. A little thing I found on the web, that I may take the time to delve into later:

Taoist Ethics: Embrace the Mystery

My own beliefs, I believe, match very closely with the fundamental teachings of the Church. Yours may not, and thus your feelings. I could, and probably will get into how I believe that the Church can co-exist with Taoist beliefs, but not here. I guess the main point that I wanted to get across is that I think you are limitiing yourself too much in your analogy, believing that you only have a finite amount of Grass, and are unable to plant any Hay....

Food for thought..... More later.... I hope.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by kklos@May 12 2005, 12:44 PM

TS,

It's been while, but your post interested me. I tried to write my response several times, but was never fully satisfied, so forgive me if this seems a bit out of sorts. I appreciate your clarification on the analogy, so let me just re-iterate to ensure my understanding:

Definitions found at http://dictionary.reference.com

Here I took the one that I thought most represented your analogy, but there are plenty of definitions

Horse = Church = The company of all Christians regarded as a spiritual body.

Hay = Faith = 1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny

Nutrients = Money and Time = resources

Grass = Integrity = Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

One clarification is needed:

Grass = Integrity = Being true to my own beliefs

I meant integrity, more in the sense of honesty.

Of course, I have a moral code too, but when I referred to grass, I was talking about my honesty with myself (and others) about my beliefs. In that sense, "the horse ate my grass". I lost integrity by pretending to believe what I did not.

So if I read this right, you have no "Hay" or believe in a supernatural power or powers, but you have "grass", or a moral/ethical code.

That is correct.

I think your analogy about a farm vs. a yard is a bit limited though.  You make the assumption that, like the finite amount of space you own around your house, that you have only a finite amount of space for your Hay and Grass.  I would say that we have an infinite capacity for both, limited only by our own understanding and willingness to submit to our own "Grass", and "Hay", therby allowing it to grow and spread. 

I agree. The space is unlimited. I guess my problem is not lack of space. It is the fact that no matter how much I try, the hay will not grow.

Interesting that the BoM says to plant the seed of faith.

Seed = Hope (according to Alma)

So, in theory, planting a seed (having hope) will produce hay (faith).

I planted my seed and it did not grow.

I suspect that the soil is bad. Maybe soil = my life experiences.

I can plant a seed in my soil, but the hay will not grow.

I can have hope, but because of my life experiences, I am unable to find faith.

A little thing I found on the web, that I may take the time to delve into later:

Taoist Ethics: Embrace the Mystery

My own beliefs, I believe, match very closely with the fundamental teachings of the Church.  Yours may not, and thus your feelings.  I could, and probably will get into how I believe that the Church can co-exist with Taoist beliefs, but not here.

I agree that Taoism, and even Zen Buddhism are compatible with LDS beliefs. One just has to attribute the source of the Tao to God.

I guess the main point that I wanted to get across is that I think you are limitiing yourself too much in your analogy, believing that you only have a finite amount of Grass, and are unable to plant any Hay....

Well, I have tried...I don't really want to get into a discussion over whether or not I can gain faith. I don't believe I can...you may disagree, but it won't change my mind. I just would prefer not to talk about it. That isn't the purpose of this thread. I opened the thread mainly as a way to explain why being anti-mormon is illogical, and it is better to be neutral.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@May 12 2005, 04:29 PM

Taoist Ethics: Embrace the Mystery

By the way, this is one of my favorite websites :)

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@May 11 2005, 04:11 PM

[

This COULD take me deeper into the metaphor than I care to go...but I will try to answer...

Let's define our metaphors more clearly:

Horse = Church

Hay = Faith

Nutrients = Money and Time

Grass = Integrity

The Horse generally eats Hay which generates Nutrients.

(The Church generally lives on Faith, which generates Money and participation, or Time)

I did not have a farm to grow Hay. I had a large yard full of Grass though.

(I did not have much Faith, but I did have my Integrity)

I fed the Horse my Grass.

(I sacrificed too much Integrity...pretending to believe in things I did not)

To live in harmony – one must feed and protect the horse they ride.  Therefore, there is grass, horses and one in need of a ride but if you have nowhere to ride there is no need for concern of grass or horses and harmony is an illusion.

Exactly.

My in-laws have a Horse, and plenty of Hay.

When they visited me on their Horse, the Horse was hungry.

I did not need a "ride", but I fed the horse my Grass, so my in-laws could enjoy a better ride home.

But the Horse ate all my Grass, and now I don't have a lawn. I can grow more Grass, so I can continue to feed my in-law's horse when they visit. But now I chose to put a fence up around my Grass, and just feed the Horse small portions.

After all, its not my Horse.

Ah Grasshopper, there is no reason to look deeper or beyond that which when present the conflict exist. For the power is within you to exist in harmony or exist in conflict.

Or to quote Shakespeare, “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seams, only that thinking makes it so.”

And Grasshopper, if you must fight a battle, choose carefully a worthy one you are sure to win.

The Traveler

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Traveler@May 12 2005, 04:31 PM

Ah Grasshopper, there is no reason to look deeper or beyond that which when present the conflict exist. For the power is within you to exist in harmony or exist in conflict.

Or to quote Shakespeare, “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seams, only that thinking makes it so.”

And Grasshopper, if you must fight a battle, choose carefully a worthy one you are sure to win.

The Traveler

Well, I'm not sure I understand

But if you are saying what I think you are saying...I should not live in conflict with anything, and try to stay in harmony?

I agree. That is exactly what I mean by viewing the Church "neutrally".

I choose to have no battle