Mickel Jackson

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm not offended, Mahone. I was just trying to make a joke out of a rather awkward situation.

I did notice your mention of defendants who are not old enough to be named in the media. This is, as far as I know, not a statutory requirement or a court procedure; it's just a professional convention by journalists.

[Dravin]

You exclude item 3. (Michael Jackson admitted that as a grown man he invited young boys into his bed.)

The point was that Michael Jackson was a grown gay man who invited young boys into his bed.

A grown man who invited young boys into his bed raises eyebrows regardless of whether he also liked grown men or women. I didn't include item 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 because I didn't have any questions about it. You included homosexuality as an indicator (reasons Jackson is more likely to be a pedophile that Just-A-Guy) of pedophilia, my understanding is generally speaking there is not significant correlation between the two unless one is looking at things like I described in my last post in which case everything else excluded besides sexuality Jackson is a better candidate for being a pedophile if we're talking about boys and any random heterosexual is a better candidate if talking about girls (if talking about male abusers of course).

Look I'm not arguing whether there is reasonable support for the idea that he was a pedophile, I don't particularly care one way or another as the man is dead and if he's guilty he can't really deny it where he is right now and if he's innocent he probably doesn't have to hear the accusations anymore, I'm just curious if the fact he was gay really is evidence that he was a pedophile or just coincidental to everything else pro or con of the matter.

Google (as usual) shows conflicting reports on the matter (are homosexuals more likely to abuse children than homosexuals) and I'm not interested in getting into a random citation war with you, which I suppose is probably what I sound like. I'm mostly just curious in what way you are considering his homosexuality as support for guilt, in the if you abuse a child of the same gender you're gay rendering or that homosexuals are more likely to also be abusers of children rendering.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Dravin

[Dravin]

Can I just say how weird it is to have a discussion board debating whether I'm more likely to be a pedophile than Michael Freakin' Jackson?

Where did I go wrong?

Well honestly I don't think you are more likely for various reasons its just my understanding is that your heterosexuality isn't why. I suppose I should have clarified all other things not considered. Basically any random gay guy (of which Michael Jackson is not) is just as likely to be a pedophile as you, at least that's my understanding (which could be flawed).

[pam]

Can I just say how weird it is to have a discussion board debating whether I'm more likely to be a pedophile than Michael Freakin' Jackson?

Where did I go wrong?

I'm here for ya man.

[Snow]

A grown man who invited young boys into his bed raises eyebrows regardless of whether he also liked grown men or women. I didn't include item 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 because I didn't have any questions about it. You included homosexuality as an indicator (reasons Jackson is more likely to be a pedophile that Just-A-Guy) of pedophilia, my understanding is generally speaking there is not significant correlation between the two unless one is looking at things like I described in my last post in which case everything else excluded besides sexuality Jackson is a better candidate for being a pedophile if we're talking about boys and any random heterosexual is a better candidate if talking about girls (if talking about male abusers of course).

Look I'm not arguing whether there is reasonable support for the idea that he was a pedophile, I don't particularly care one way or another as the man is dead and if he's guilty he can't really deny it where he is right now and if he's innocent he probably doesn't have to hear the accusations anymore, I'm just curious if the fact he was gay really is evidence that he was a pedophile or just coincidental to everything else pro or con of the matter.

Google (as usual) shows conflicting reports on the matter (are homosexuals more likely to abuse children than homosexuals) and I'm not interested in getting into a random citation war with you, which I suppose is probably what I sound like. I'm mostly just curious in what way you are considering his homosexuality as support for guilt, in the if you abuse a child of the same gender you're gay rendering or that homosexuals are more likely to also be abusers of children rendering.

You are still missing the point.

A straight guy that has another guy spend the night with him doesn't mean much. A gay guy that sleeps with another guy raises a question about whether or not they are really sleeping.

As to whether or not homosexuals are more likely to be molesters... not to my knowledge.

[Dravin]

You are still missing the point.

A straight guy that has another guy spend the night with him doesn't mean much. A gay guy that sleeps with another guy raises a question about whether or not they are really sleeping.

As to whether or not homosexuals are more likely to be molesters... not to my knowledge.

Edit:

Since my communications skills are sucking harder than normal I'll try to explain again:

Your statement is: "He's inviting the same gender he is attracted to to share his bed! Red Flag!" Which is similar to what I was trying to say with all my gobbly gook like:

everything else excluded besides sexuality Jackson is a better candidate for being a pedophile if we're talking about boys and any random heterosexual is a better candidate if talking about girls (if talking about male abusers of course).

Edited July 12, 2009 by Dravin

[Snow]

My apologies for initiating this. My point was that the chances of you being a pedophile are very low. Michael Jackson just happened to be very famous (hence the media coverage), did some stupid things which could give him "the appearance of evil" and had a lot of money (motive for the accusers to lie). I believe those facts are the only reasons people now believe him to be a pedophile.

Are you for real? You're almost beyond belief. You believe, by your own admission that the ONLY reasons that people think Jackson is a pedophile is because 1. he is famous, 2. he does stupid things, 3. he had money.

Earlier you claimed, falsely, that there was no evidence. Once I posted the some of the evidence, you then seems to agree that there was evidence as you then did your best to apologize for the evidence.

Frankly, I don't know whether actual pedophilia is counted among Jackson's sins but I understand that there are many reasons, Jackson's behavior being one of the main ones, for people believing that it is.

What really has me scratching my head is why you are so passionate and vociferous in defending the cretin. I especially enjoyed your dismissal of Jackson being a sick weird creep with a simple rebuttal of "weasel words." That he was a creepy weirdo is abundantly obvious but let's look anyway:

1. He adopted the public voice of an 8 year old girl.

2. He was addicted, pathologically to plastic surgery.

3. He was addicted to drugs.

4. He had a habit of constantly grabbing his crotch and humping things - his hand, the air, the asphalt...

5. He had a multi-million dollar fascination with a deformed human skeleton.

6. He repeated welshed on his debts.

7. He had a sham marriage with the daughter of another weird drug addict.

8. He had a second marriage with yet another woman from who he bought and paid for children.

9. As an adult man, he would have sleep overs with young boys.

10. He showed up to court in pajamas.

11. He worn a silly glove on one hand.

12. He'd wear masks.

13. Slept in hyperbaric chamber.

14, 15, 16, 17, 90, 180... well it never ends, does it.

If your neighbor did any one of those things, that would make the neighbor weird, two would make him creepy weird, but Jackson did em all.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Snow

[Mahone]

Are you for real? You're almost beyond belief. You believe, by your own admission that the ONLY reasons that people think Jackson is a pedophile is because 1. he is famous, 2. he does stupid things, 3. he had money.

Earlier you claimed, falsely, that there was no evidence. Once I posted the some of the evidence, you then seems to agree that there was evidence as you then did your best to apologize for the evidence.

Frankly, I don't know whether actual pedophilia is counted among Jackson's sins but I understand that there are many reasons, Jackson's behavior being one of the main ones, for people believing that it is.

What really has me scratching my head is why you are so passionate and vociferous in defending the cretin. I especially enjoyed your dismissal of Jackson being a sick weird creep with a simple rebuttal of "weasel words." That he was a creepy weirdo is abundantly obvious but let's look anyway:

1. He adopted the public voice of an 8 year old girl.

2. He was addicted, pathologically to plastic surgery.

3. He was addicted to drugs.

4. He had a habit of constantly grabbing his crotch and humping things - his hand, the air, the asphalt...

5. He had a multi-million dollar fascination with a deformed human skeleton.

6. He repeated welshed on his debts.

7. He had a sham marriage with the daughter of another weird drug addict.

8. He had a second marriage with yet another woman from who he bought and paid for children.

9. As an adult man, he would have sleep overs with young boys.

10. He showed up to court in pajamas.

11. He worn a silly glove on one hand.

12. He'd wear masks.

13. Slept in hyperbaric chamber.

14, 15, 16, 17, 90, 180... well it never ends, does it.

If your neighbor did any one of those things, that would make the neighbor weird, two would make him creepy weird, but Jackson did em all.

I haven't tried to apologise for any "evidence" - I was refuting it. Please don't put words in my mouth.

The whole of my argument is trying to point out that there is no valid evidence that says he is a pedophile. The evidence which says that he was, was dismissed by the court for the reasons that I gave. So to suggest he is a pedophile is unfair and most likely wrong.

I have already stated that he was mentally ill. Your description of his mental illness is "sick weird creep". That shows the lack of understanding I was talking about earlier. You only know one side of the story. None of your points suggest he was a pedophile, he was just strange and clearly suffering with a mental illness.

Let me define weasel words for you:

Weasel words is an informal term for words that are ambiguous and not supported by facts. They are typically used to create an illusion of clear, direct communication. Weasel words are usually expressed with deliberate imprecision with the intention to mislead the listeners or readers into believing statements for which sources are not readily available.

That is exactly what you did and what your entire above post is. I'd rather stick to the facts than your own uninformed personal opinion if you don't mind. You don't like it when people use weasel words in bashing the LDS church, so why should it be accepted for anything else?

Your picture of a -mask- of Michael Jackson is pathetic. Can you ever just stick to the facts in order to try and prove your point?

Edited July 12, 2009 by Mahone

[mustang90]

Wrong. It's "PRESUMED" innocent. If someone did the deed, they are guilty whether that are proven guilty on not.

WRONG. Here's a few more reasons why Jackson is more likely to be a pedophile than Just-A-Guy:

1. Michael Jackson is creepy sick weird.

2. Michael Jackson was a drug addict.

3. Michael Jackson admitted that as a grown man he invited young boys into his bed.

4. Michael Jackson was gay.

5. Michael Jackson was accused of molestation and his presumed victim testified to that effect.

6. During the trial the prosecution called witnesses who as young boys had sexual events or encounters with Jackson.

7. Employees of Jackson reported sexual events between Jackson boys.

8. In 1996 Jackson paid off a family two million dollars to make a molestation case go away.

9. In 1994 Jackson paid a family 15-20 million to prevent the boy from testifying against Jackson in a criminal molestation case.

Let's see what you have to stack up against that vis-a-vis Just-A-Guy.

Yeah - there's a place for that... it's was called cold-war Russia.

Fortunately we live in a free country were the rights of the media are constitutionally protected against people who think like you.

I don't know if this has been confronted yet but I'm just going to address it.

1) That statement is nothing but judgement and is based on someones opinion who has never known or met the man. To his friends he was a wonderful person.

2) Yes he was. Addicted to pain killers as a result of a reported low pain tolerance several injuries he sustained in his career including 3rd degree burns and broken bones. Drug addiction is a flaw, but it didn't make him a bad person. It made him a person with weaknesses, like all of us.

3) Right. He did admit that. He never admitted touching them inappropraitely.

4) First off, you don't know anything about Michael Jacksons sexuality unless you've had a first hand experience, because he has never publicly confirmed anything close to a homosexual lifestyle. And in fact to this day his ex-wife Lisa Marie Presely believes that he truly loved her with all his heart. Secondly, what does being gay have to do with anything about pedophilia?

5) Yes he was accussed. And his accusser testified. An no one believed him. Read the jurors statements and testimony. He came off as enitrely unbelievable.

6) Sort of. They called one boy, who said Michael Jackson tickled him...wow.

7) Two did, and they were both fired at the same time years earlier for theft of property.

8) False.

9) And what decent human being would accept payment for their child being molested? Sounds more like a pimp than father. What sane person would pay off an accuser? Someone who had the money, and just wanted the stress and scandal to go away regardless of their validity.

[Snow]

I haven't tried to apologise for any "evidence" - I was refuting it. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Apparently you are not familiar with the word "apologize."

apologize: argue or speak in defense of (Collins Essential Thesaurus)

The whole of my argument is trying to point out that there is no valid evidence that says he is a pedophile. The evidence which says that he was, was dismissed by the court for the reasons that I gave.

There you go - making stuff up again. There is evidence. You first denied that it existed. You then tried to refute it. You now claim that it is not valid. YOU say that it is not valid but that does not mean anything other than you have an opinion. What we do know, objectively, is that the evidence did not convince one jury that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

So to suggest he is a pedophile is unfair and most likely wrong.

Anyone who did what he did, for example, pay 20 million to prevent a boy from testifying in court, would be suspected of pedophilia.

I have already stated that he was mentally ill. Your description of his mental illness is "sick weird creep". That shows the lack of understanding I was talking about earlier. You only know one side of the story. None of your points suggest he was a pedophile, he was just strange and clearly suffering with a mental illness.

Sleeping with young boys and paying 20 million dollars to keep testimony out of court don't suggest anything to you? You're blind.

Note that I have never said that he was a pedophile. In fact I said that I don't know if he is. What I am addressing is your deliberate deception in denying that there is evidence and reason for suspicion

Let me define weasel words for you: "Weasel words is an informal term for words that are ambiguous and not supported by facts..."

That is exactly what you did and what your entire above post is. I'd rather stick to the facts than your own uninformed personal opinion if you don't mind. You don't like it when people use weasel words in bashing the LDS church, so why should it be accepted for anything else?

Okay - now it's put up time or shut up time. Please demonstrate that the 13 points you say are "entire[ly]" untrue are factually wrong.

Your picture of a -mask- of Michael Jackson is pathetic. Can you ever just stick to the facts in order to try and prove your point?

He was a pathetic man.

[Snow]

The groupies are out in force today.

[rameumptom]

I think this thread is going into left field and the tensions are too high. Calm it down everyone, or I'll close this thread.

You don't have to like the other person's POV, but you do have to show respect for other posters. That is, after all, in the bylines you all agreed to.

[KeithLBrown]

Quote from Ben Raines:

Honestly I could care less what Michael Jackson's religion was. The tragic story is not of his death but of how he was marketed since he was 4 years old.

Didn't we abolish slavery? He was enslaved as a child by those he should have been able to depend on.

Ben Raines

Ben, to your comments may I add a hardy AMEN!! I really like what Janet Jackson had to say about her brother Michael. In part she said that the world saw Michael as an icon, but to the Jackson family, he was a son, a brother, and a father.

I agree that Michael was an outstanding performer and the world will be hard pressed to find another performer exactly like him. He was an original artist. Sadly, even though Michael Jackson may have done a lot of things to himself to bring about his own demise, still we cannot and should not dismiss the fact that he had a lot of help from a lot of people to include some of those he trusted most.

He recorded a song that I think is a very fitting testimony to his often troubled life called "Have You Seen My Childhood?" Childhood? What childhood? What real life for that matter? Michael Jackson for the most part was robbed of a childhood, and in some cases his worth as a human being. He was nothing more than a robot - a money making machine as far as the entertainment business and some others were concerned.

To me it is both sickening and irritating to hear all of the negativity that is going around about Michael Jackson at this point. He is gone! LET HIM REST IN PEACE!! He did not get much peace when he was alive, and now he can't rest in peace now that he is gone? His brother Marlon even commented on this at the memorial service when he said in part "Maybe now they will leave you alone." Will they, meaning the media and all those who thought they really knew Michael Jackson the person? This writer sincerely doubts it. As one article I read stated "Michael Jackson is worth more dead than he was alive." What a sad commentary on ones life.

I have not read all of the comments in this thread, but a lot of what I have read really saddens me in the way some people think. I will forever be amazed at how much people think they know about a person, and how much they truly know about the person. Michael Jackson was more than anextraordinary entertainer - he was a human being first of all. The media has not done any justice in helping to calm things down. But, then again what can you expect from the media?

I believe that the period can be put on Michael Jackson's life with two songs that he recorded: "Everybody's Somebody's Fool" and "Gone Too Soon". Michael Jackson is gone, but he leaves behind a family that loved him and misses him very much. My heart goes out to them - especially to his young children who sincerely loved their father. Rest in peace Michael Joseph Jackson.

Keith L. Brown

Edited July 13, 2009 by KeithLBrown

[Carl62]

I'm curious to see what's gonna happen with the three kids. Last I saw was that Joe Jackson (grandad) was wanting to take guardianship and make the kids into "The Jackson 3" by 2010?! That's insane! Let those kids be kids for awhile before thrusting them into the media paparazzi.

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm inclined to agree. Hearing snippets from the daughter speaking at the funeral, I just thought "here we go again".

[Winnie G]

I do not believe that MJ will get a easy pass in the spirit world.

For people like him a fast ride to hell and don't try to sweeten the whole idea.

He know what he was doing and yet he flaunted in the face of those who know the truth, "you cant get me" courts are sending guilty men and women free Every day.

I know what it takes to send a monster to Jail for life. He is gone for life but my son at 33 is still in hell and counseling. people like MJ pay things off thinking that will free the nightmares but it does not.

My God has a stright road to hell for those like him.................................>

So you asked you have answers

[Snow]

Snow: 8. In 1996 Jackson paid off a family two million dollars to make a molestation case go away.

8) False.

Oh? What is false?

Was it more than 2 million?

Was it a different year?

Was the payoff for a different reason?

[pam]

I do not believe that MJ will get a easy pass in the spirit world.

For people like him a fast ride to hell and don't try to sweeten the whole idea.

He know what he was doing and yet he flaunted in the face of those who know the truth, "you cant get me" courts are sending guilty men and women free Every day.

I know what it takes to send a monster to Jail for life. He is gone for life but my son at 33 is still in hell and counseling. people like MJ pay things off thinking that will free the nightmares but it does not.

My God has a stright road to hell for those like him.................................>

So you asked you have answers

Nice to see we are taking the work of judgment from the one who does the final judging.

Edited July 14, 2009 by pam

[Mahone]

I cannot just accept that people can jump to the conclusion that he was a pedophile. Maybe someone who doesn't understand mental illness could come to that conclusion.

Given ALL the facts (on both sides of the coin), even without knowing the medical experts diagnosis, I suspect I would have come to the same conclusion that he did - he had the mind of a 10 year old. I know all too well from personal experience how people can jump to conclusions when it comes to mental illnesses. History shows us this as well when people didn't understand why the person was doing what they were doing so assumed they were possessed by devils. We now know a little better than we did previously however I have already stated that mental illness is still very misunderstood in this world.

Maybe I am too forgiving, I always give people the benefit of the doubt. But I really don't think so. Some of the posts on here smell like a witch hunt to me.

[KeithLBrown]

Pam, I agree with you 100%. When did our Heavenly Father relinquish the judgment seat to any of us to pass judgment on another? My Scriptures still say judge not that ye be not judged. I don't know about anyone else, but I personally have had enough of some of the comments on this thread and think that it is time to shut the door on it. Any thoughts?

[rameumptom]

It isn't our duty to condemn or judge Michael Jackson. Ours is to pray for his soul, and for his family. I think that is what I learned from the Sermon on the Mount.

I think we will find God to be much more loving, merciful and accommodating than many of us would be. Look at those in the scriptures whom Jesus forgave, including adulterers, murderers, and tax collectors. Even Zeezrom, a lawyer, received forgiveness!

Will Michael Jackson spend time in hell? Probably. He will have to spend time there until he fully repents and turns his sins over to Christ, at which time he will be released from Spirit Prison hell.

However, D&C 132 tells me that the same will happen for faithful LDS, who are not fully perfect. They will be turned over to the buffetings of Satan prior to receiving their exaltation. Guess where that happens? In the Spirit Prison hell.

Each of us, all of us, must be purified in the blood of Christ if we ever wish to receive a kingdom of glory. And for those of us eager to condemn people like Michael Jackson to an awful and eternal hell, we must be ready to receive equally harsh judgment for our own unrighteous feelings towards our fellow man.

For me, I am thankful for God's mercy. If he can forgive all mankind for any and all sins, then he can forgive Michael Jackson and me.

[KeithLBrown]

Rameumptom, to your comments may I just add -- AMEN!! AMEN!! AMEN!!

[Snow]

It isn't our duty to condemn or judge Michael Jackson. Ours is to pray for his soul, and for his family. I think that is what I learned from the Sermon on the Mount.

Do you think our prayers will have any effect on his soul? Do you think it less likely that he will be saved if we don't?

Will Michael Jackson spend time in hell? Probably. He will have to spend time there until he fully repents and turns his sins over to Christ, at which time he will be released from Spirit Prison hell.

I'm reminded of what an acquaintance once said: "It isn't our duty to condemn or judge Michael Jackson. Ours is to pray for his soul, and for his family. I think that is what I learned from the Sermon on the Mount."

[rameumptom]

Do you think our prayers will have any effect on his soul? Do you think it less likely that he will be saved if we don't?

It isn't necessarily for his sake we should do so, but for our own sakes. We need to learn a Christ-like love and forgiveness that we cannot learn in any other way. Jesus taught us on the Sermon on the Mount to pray for our enemies. He also taught us to love not only our friends, but our enemies, as well.

I'm reminded of what an acquaintance once said: "It isn't our duty to condemn or judge Michael Jackson. Ours is to pray for his soul, and for his family. I think that is what I learned from the Sermon on the Mount."

I wasn't condemning Michael Jackson in my statement. My belief is that most of us will have to spend some time in Spirit Prison hell, being buffeted by Satan, until we have fully repented of all our sins, and then will be redeemed to whichever kingdom Christ chooses to give us, according to our righteous faith and desires. BTW, next time you quote me, please ensure you quote the entire thing, and not out of context.

Here's what you left out:

However, D&C 132 tells me that the same will happen for faithful LDS, who are not fully perfect. They will be turned over to the buffetings of Satan prior to receiving their exaltation. Guess where that happens? In the Spirit Prison hell.

Each of us, all of us, must be purified in the blood of Christ if we ever wish to receive a kingdom of glory. And for those of us eager to condemn people like Michael Jackson to an awful and eternal hell, we must be ready to receive equally harsh judgment for our own unrighteous feelings towards our fellow man.

For me, I am thankful for God's mercy. If he can forgive all mankind for any and all sins, then he can forgive Michael Jackson and me.

Edited July 17, 2009 by rameumptom

[Snow]

Rameumpton,

Could you please explain why you quoted me, but then removed my name from the quote and substituted Elphaba. You're trying to make a point but it's subtlety escapes me.