Polygamy is affecting my testimony

[breecatasnana]

Now I'm looking for the laugh button. Not laughing at anyone, mind you.

I haven't got an opinion either way.

I don't know how to tell what you are answering if you do not include a quote. If you are answering my question then all I have to say is if you support Joseph Smith as a prophet of God then you know he was telling the truth, and what he taught as doctrine was from God, therefore if you have no opinion to my question then you do not support Joseph Smith as a prophet, but as just a man who taught doctrine as he saw fit, not as revealed by God.

Penny

[Guest Believer_1829]

What you say is quite true. I understand this concept completely as I believe that God put the ban on Blacks holding the priesthood through Joseph Smith and then removed it later through a different prophet.

But saying God did not tell Joseph Smith to put the ban on blacks holding the priesthood, but rather Joseph did it on his own because of peer preasure, and that he then lied to the church saying God commanded it when He did not, is not the same thing at all.

My question to you then is: Did God put the ban on Blacks holding the priesthood or did Joseph Smith do it claiming God did?

Penny

Could you please share a single instance where Joseph Smith taught that blacks could not have the Priesthood?

Thank you.

[Justice]

I don't believe God commanded genocide.

You can believe what you want. The fact is God told Joshua to lead the children of Israel into the land of promise and utterly destroy every living thing therein, man, woman, child, and even goats.

God commanded them to kill them all, show no mercy and spare not.

That is what I was referring to. You used the word genocide, so you are right. God did not say "commit genocide." So, you can believe what you will. But He did command them to kill all the inhabitants that lived in the land. This He did a little over 40 years after He commanded them not to kill.

Deut. 7:

2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Deut. 12:

2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:

Deut. 20:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

Judg. 21:

11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man.

1 Sam. 15:

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

But saying God did not tell Joseph Smith to put the ban on blacks holding the priesthood, but rather Joseph did it on his own because of peer preasure, and that he then lied to the church saying God commanded it when He did not, is not the same thing at all.

My question to you then is: Did God put the ban on Blacks holding the priesthood or did Joseph Smith do it claiming God did?

Penny

Since you quoted me, it appears you're asking me why I said what you quoted. But, I did not say it, so I'll assume you're asking someone else.

[HEthePrimate]

You can believe what you want. The fact is God told Joshua to lead the children of Israel into the land of promise and utterly destroy every living thing therein, man, woman, child, and even goats.

God commanded them to kill them all, show no mercy and spare not.

I've read all the scriptures, cover to cover--don't worry, I've seen the verses you quoted. However, I don't believe God personally wrote them with his own hand or dictated them. People wrote them, and followed the all-too-human impulse to justify their actions by claiming God told them to do something horrific.

Think of it rather like this. I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and said many good and true things. However, I do not believe men live on the moon--Joseph was simply wrong about that. That's ok, I don't expect him to be perfect, and likewise I don't expect the scriptures to be perfect. I glean the God-inspired truths and wisdom that I see in them and set aside what I perceive to be the faults of men:

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

-- Book of Mormon title page

The trick, obviously, is to distinguish the true from the false.

No thanks, I'll pass on the Kool-Aid...

HEP

[MorningStar]

God's plan is perfect. Whatever happens after this life, we will be happy, so do your best to put the thought aside. There are countless things we could worry about concerning what it will be like in Heaven, but we will be made perfect and I'm sure we'll be more than fine knowing God's plan. Don't let this issue distract you from things that are important in your life. Everything is going to work out.

[Moksha]

My question to you then is: Did God put the ban on Blacks holding the priesthood or did Joseph Smith do it claiming God did?

Penny

Neither one. Some doofus merely claimed that Joseph Smith had said that Blacks were not to hold the Priesthood sometime in the past, as if the Prophet would have fail to notice that Elijah Abel was black when he ordained Elijah Abel to the Melchizedek Priesthood in 1836 or when Elder Abel was ordained to be a Seventy later that same year.

I think critical thinking on this subject went out the window because of other unfortunate notions plaguing most of the country at that time.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Neither one. Some doofus merely claimed that Joseph Smith had said that Blacks were not to hold the Priesthood sometime in the past, as if the Prophet would have fail to notice that Elijah Abel was black when he ordained Elijah Abel to the Melchizedek Priesthood in 1836 or when Elder Abel was ordained to be a Seventy later that same year.

I think critical thinking on this subject went out the window because of other unfortunate notions plaguing most of the country at that time.

Keep in mind there were actually about 6 black men ordained by Joseph. Elijah Abel was merely the first, so he gets all the press coverage.

[BenRaines]

Folks there is another thread that you can use for this discussion. No need to hijack this one. This was about Polygamy not Blacks and the Priesthood.

Ben Raines

[Guest Believer_1829]

Folks there is another thread that you can use for this discussion. No need to hijack this one. This was about Polygamy not Blacks and the Priesthood.

Ben Raines

I apologize, sir...

I just signed up yesterday and came late to the thread, so I just was following the flow of conversation.

[BenRaines]

No harm no foul. Just makes sense.

Ben Raines

[breecatasnana]

Could you please share a single instance where Joseph Smith taught that blacks could not have the Priesthood?

Thank you.

I would have to research to find this. I am not an apologist with all this info at my finger tips. However, my point is that a prophet does not teach any doctrine, or refuse to teach any doctrine because of peer preasure. He teaches only what God tells him to teach for doctrine. God will not allow him to teach false doctrine. My second point is if one supports a prophet he does not at the same time say that prophet is teaching false doctrine. Either you support a prophet or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

Penny

[deseretgov]

We're not practicing polygamy any more, are we now? Mistake made. Course correction. Back on track.

So which principle are we following now that is a mistake? How do we know that what we are doinf right now is what God wants us to do?

[Guest Believer_1829]

I would have to research to find this. I am not an apologist with all this info at my finger tips. However, my point is that a prophet does not teach any doctrine, or refuse to teach any doctrine because of peer preasure. He teaches only what God tells him to teach for doctrine. God will not allow him to teach false doctrine. My second point is if one supports a prophet he does not at the same time say that prophet is teaching false doctrine. Either you support a prophet or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

Penny

Can we move this over to the right topic?

Your point presupposes that Joseph even taught that Blacks couldn't hold the Priesthood. My point is that I don't believe Joseph ever taught it, so it is not a matter of whether I support him as a prophet or not, it's whether a policy was put in place using his name that he never advocated for or not.

[BenRaines]

Since this thread is off track and people can not seem to get back on track I am closing this one. You can find other threads regarding Blacks and the Priesthood ban.

Ben Raines