The ease of government-run health care!

[Prodigal_Son]

$8,160

$7,900

$7,439

[Maxel]

Just read this in the Salt Lake Tribune:

Health care costs the average U.S. household about $15,000 a year, approximately $6,500 more than in other nations where medicine is not practiced in grass huts.

Do you think that maybe all the other industrialized countries have cost controls built in?

So, if these numbers are correct (and we assume that most of those other countries have nationalized healthcare), the average non-U.S. household pays $8,500/year in taxes to support their government's health care program?

Did I do that math right? Also, could you link the article, Moksha?

[Moksha]

Did I do that math right? Also, could you link the article, Moksha?

Now remember in math you have to consider the Heisenberg Principle of uncertainty.

Jones: Showin' love for the uninsured - Salt Lake Tribune

[bytor2112]

Just read this in the Salt Lake Tribune:

Do you think that maybe all the other industrialized countries have cost controls built in?

I would love to see how they arrived at that figure........a bit of smoke and mirror I'd bet:rolleyes:

[Palerider]

I would love to see how they arrived at that figure........a bit of smoke and mirror I'd bet:rolleyes:

politics.....smoke and mirrors....not a chance.....:)

[Maxel]

I would love to see how they arrived at that figure........a bit of smoke and mirror I'd bet:rolleyes:

Well, to quote the article:

I'm a generalist. I know a little bit about a lot of things and a lot about nothing. I know even less than a little about health care...

But studying the issue is a slog. Single payer, cost containment, public option, yawn. Sounds to me like Congress found the cure for insomnia.

Fortunately, we have a really smart guy on the Tribune editorial board -- he says his initials, P.W., stand for Paul Wetzel, but if you checked his birth certificate it would read "Policy Wonk" -- who researches and writes on weighty matters, health care included. That enables me to write about the really important stuff.

After an exhaustive study of the state of health care in America, here are my findings.

So, Mr. Jones really doesn't know what he's talking about beyond his independent studies and picking the brain of Mr. Wetzel- which, judging by his own words in the article, he's been doing for... a whole week.

[Guest]

Pale, the other side to that is, "We care only about profits, beyond that you can all eat cake".

Mosha, don't take this with any flavor of insolence at all. It is not meant as such. I just wanted to express that I'm starting to feel from your posts that to you Profit = Greed. I'm responding to this because I am of a completely opposite mindset. To me Profit = Good!

Here's a simple case scenario:

Say, I'm a chemist (okay, my dad is a chemist, I'm just pretending)... I came up with this magic lemonade formula that tastes sooo good with 0 sugar content, 0 harmful ingredients, completely natural, and reduces risk of heart attack.

I then put a hut on the corner of Main Street with my bottles of lemonade. It cost me $100,000 to come up with my first batch of lemonade - ingredients and bottles and rental space for the hut, 5 years of chemical engineering school and years of research and all that brain power that finally gave birth to the magic lemonade formula. The first day, 5 people show up to try my lemonade. I sold the lemonade at $1 a bottle. THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT. So they tell all their friends about it. I still only made $5 tho, but I persevere - even if I'm about to foreclose on the house and my 8-year-old son is telling me he wants to be a doctor... I'm still seeing ZERO profit...

The next day, I had 50 people show up in line... unfortunately, I only made 25 bottles of lemonade a day - of course, I can't mass produce it - no more capital money. So, I upped the price to $2.00 per bottle... and I made $50 that day. yippeee.... getting closer. The next day, I made 100 bottles. But, the lemonade was sooo good that there were 500 people in line to buy it! So, I upped the price to $5.00 per bottle and people still bought it. Now, we're cooking - 2500 bucks in one day!

But, instead of paying my mortgage, I decided, I'm going to sink in all $2555 bucks of sales into mass production of my lemonade... So the next month, I had 1,000 bottles of lemonade. But, then, of course, there were also 5,000 people in line for my magic lemonade... So, I decided to sell the lemonade at $10 per bottle. But, the people thought it was too expensive, so only 1,000 of the 5,000 people bought my lemonade. It's all good, because I only have 1,000 bottles to sell anyway. I made lots of money that day - $10,000 in fact. But, of course, it is still not enough to pay my student loans and the ingredients and everything else I need to make lemonade. And I was putting in 20 hours a day of work!

So, on my next month, I hired 2 people to help me make and sell lemonade.

But, I cannot raise the price of the lemonade anymore because nobody will buy it. I can produce more of it and lower the price, but that means I have to sink in more capital for mass production and hire more people. So, my lemonade company evened out at $10.00 per bottle, selling 1,000 bottles a day.

Finally, after 3 years of selling lemonade, I finally made enough to pay off my student loans. I still owe money on the house, but that's okay. The cool thing is both my employees were able to pay off their mortgages with their income! And then 10 years later, I finally made my first million! Which was perfect timing because that was the day my son got accepted to Harvard Medical School! I paid for his college in cash, no Government Aid needed. And 10 years after my son graduated from Harvard, he made HIS first million which was perfect timing too because that was the day I got diagnosed with cancer and had to close down my lemonade business to pay for my chemotherapy.

So, in this scenario... AND ALL OTHERS LIKE IT... PROFIT is VERY GOOD. VERY VERY VERY GOOD!

Why? Because, capitalism worked perfectly here.

I have a dream, I had the brains, and I risked everything I had to fulfill that dream. I provided a product that people WANTED to buy. I gave people a healthy choice. And I made millions - I was able to send my son to Harvard Medical School, which fulfilled his dream... he was able to help millions of people with his medical knowledge... and help me in my ailing years. And, to top it all off, I had 2 employees who fulfilled their dreams as well.

ALL WITHOUT NEEDING a government BAIL-OUT. All without needing a hand-out... just a LOAN which I was able to pay back. All using money that everybody - rich or poor - was WILLING and HAPPY to give me in exchange for a good bottle of lemonade.

I wanted to be greedy but... in a perfect capitalistic environment - that was not possible. Because, if I sell my lemonade for $20.00 nobody but a fool will buy it. And there were not that many fools. Or, some guy out of those thousands of people in line for my lemonade would figure out he's spending too much on lemonade and would rather make his own to sell for $10.00 cutting me out completely!

Capitalism - if left well enough alone - is truly a system that will reward hard work, punish greed, and separate the fool from his money.

So, yea, PROFIT, is VERY VERY VERY GOOD.

Now, pop quiz: How many of you work for somebody who does not make any profit?

Side note: My sister-in-law works for Blue Cross - non-profit health insurance company.

Edited July 27, 2009 by anatess

[Guest]

Here are my proposals:

SUGGESTION #1:

First, standardize insurance policies. (Government should NOT be allowed to join the fray, as it's not their right or responsibility.) Now, when I say "standardize", I mean that there should be a conglomerate that creates maybe a dozen different insurance plans. And those plans are the standard that ALL insurance companies use. This way WE, as consumers, can pit company against company - apples to apples - and compare pricing and performance.

SUGGESTION #2:

Open the state borders for insurance. It's ridiculous that we have to be state specific. It inhibits competition while promoting high costs and less accountability.

SUGGESTION #3:

Put some controls on lawsuits. Litigation needs to exist for those whose lives are destroyed via incompetence, but do a google search on awards and you'll find story after story of people who've won millions and millions of dollars for, shall we say, "questionable" wrongs???

By curbing this, the doctors will spend less on malpractice insurance. It will also reduce "defensive medicine" where doctors are running unnecessary tests to as standard CYA.

SUGGESTION #4:

Have some sort of oversight committee (that is comprised of medical/legal/insurance professionals) that does nothing but audit performance of medical practitioners. Let THEM keep the doctors on their toes to do what's right and to keep things in financial check.

SUGGESTION #5:

Reform Medicaid. I won't pretend to know HOW on this one, as it's a Hydra at this point... but perhaps make some adjustment that allows for temporary coverage of those who can PROVE they haven't the assets to afford TRULY CRUCIAL medical care.

FINALLY! A great shift in this here thread! Solutions!

Okay, let me add my 2 cents:

SUGGESTION #1 is good. I would love it all a'la carte. Just like buying a car - I'm healthy, non-smoker, non-drinker, so I'd like the el-cheapo Honda base insurance without french fries for $100 a month - I pay my own doctor's visits and prescriptions, you cover hospital and surgical. But my mother had a history of breast cancer, so add the Honda premium cancer package for $100 more a month. I'm only tied to the insurance for 1 year since it is an el-cheapo Honda base package. So, if Honda doesn't perform to my satisfaction, I can exchange it for a Chevy next year.

Of course, this necessitates people to KNOW everything they need to know about health insurance and how it works and be RESPONSIBLE. There is no "safety net" for ignorance - oh, I didn't know it didn't cover maternity! And here the girl is pregnant...

So, yeah, I wouldn't mind the government providing healthcare education.

SUGGESTION #2 and #3 are a MUST.

SUGGESTION #4 already exists. It's called the American Medical Association. You don't want legal people in there unless you have #3 firmly in place.

That's what happened in Florida. FMA lobby was able to introduce a bill that limits the amount of money a lawyer can make out of mal-practice lawsuits - this was in the hopes that ambulance chasers will not be able to make it worth their while. The Florida Lawyers lobby countered with 2 bills - 3 strikes and you're out bill (3 mal-practice incidents and you lose your license to practice medicine in florida) - and the open records bill - where the AMA will have to release all their peer-to-peer investigations to the public. This made the lives of doctors hell - because now, the Florida Lawyers can pick any AMA investigations of their peers and make it into a lawsuit. And with the 3-strikes and you're out bill (with Floridians track record of anti-doctor sentiment), doctors will not risk going to court but would, instead, go for settlement - Lawyers win!

Floridians didn't bother to research the 3 bills - they said YES to all of them. So, yeah, Lawyers paradise in Florida. You will not find too many good doctors in Florida anymore. And at the same time, FMA stopped their peer to peer investigations to eliminate the risk of providing fodder for frivolous lawsuits... so patients lose.

SUGGESTION #5... definitely. I don't know how to get that done either besides stop spending the money on non-medicaid programs. From what I understand, the Medicaid tax dollars are "borrowed" by other non-medicaid related programs so that it doesn't even have the luxury of gaining interest besides the rate of inflation.

My additions:

SUGGESTION #6. Keep healthcare and employers separate. Currently, there is a tax haven for those who purchase their health insurance through their company. I say, make health insurance tax deductible whether it is purchased through the company or not. This way, employees can use healthcare benefits as a TRUE comparative benefit between employers. And, employees can opt out of restrictive choices of employer-supplied healthcare - cash the benefit in - and purchase their own private insurance. And, if they lose their jobs, they don't have to lose their insurance.

SUGGESTION #7. Make HSA's even better. I LOVE HSA's! Right now, you can only have it if you have a high deductible or "el-cheapo Honda" insurance. I say, make it available for everybody just like the IRA's!

SUGGESTION #8. Open up the VA for the poor and downtrodden. Citizenship or legal residency required, of course. Or, instead of opening up the VA... make their own VA version... state-run. Eligibility requirements to be state-provided.

[Moksha]

Mosha, don't take this with any flavor of insolence at all. It is not meant as such. I just wanted to express that I'm starting to feel from your posts that to you Profit = Greed. I'm responding to this because I am of a completely opposite mindset. To me Profit = Good!

You are not alone, Gordon Gecko combined these ideas and Ayn Rand made a whole philosophy it.

:)

[Palerider]

Our Senator from Missouri had a little town hall meeting lastnight in St Louis.....one question was raised about this Obama Healthcare Plan....the question is....if this plan is so good are you and all other Politicians going to have and use the same plan thats being proposed. I am not sure if she answered the question.....maybe there was alot of dancing going on in the room.

What do you think????should they have the same one they are going to pass on to us????

[Prodigal_Son]

Our Senator from Missouri had a little town hall meeting lastnight in St Louis.....one question was raised about this Obama Healthcare Plan....the question is....if this plan is so good are you and all other Politicians going to have and use the same plan thats being proposed. I am not sure if she answered the question.....maybe there was alot of dancing going on in the room.

What do you think????should they have the same one they are going to pass on to us????

Dang straight! Here's the proposal put forwards by John Fleming that only 61 out of the ??330?? supported.

[Palerider]

Think maybe the plan isn't good enough for the rest?????

[Prodigal_Son]

Think maybe the plan isn't good enough for the rest?????

There's no other appropriate conclusion to draw.

[MarginOfError]

Here are my proposals:

SUGGESTION #1:

First, standardize insurance policies. (Government should NOT be allowed to join the fray, as it's not their right or responsibility.) Now, when I say "standardize", I mean that there should be a conglomerate that creates maybe a dozen different insurance plans. And those plans are the standard that ALL insurance companies use. This way WE, as consumers, can pit company against company - apples to apples - and compare pricing and performance.

I'm not sure I see the rationale for this suggestion. We assume consumers are smart enough to compare home owner insurance, car insurance, and the like with no standardized plans. We assume consumers are able to compare dissimilar cable packages. Why can't they compare health insurance in the same way? I think the bigger issue about health insurance is that, through employer based health care, consumers often only have one option, and it is the employing company that decides what benefits will be available through the insurer. It would make more sense to have more options available to the individual without the middle man of the employer. But even that gets complicated--if employers don't contribute to health insurance, they end up having to pay higher salaries so employees can pay for their own health insurance, and then a portion of that extra income goes to taxes and it doesn't quite break even.

What's more, I can't imagine the insurance industry developing its own standards without government oversight...much like broadcast television and the FCC.

SUGGESTION #2:

Open the state borders for insurance. It's ridiculous that we have to be state specific. It inhibits competition while promoting high costs and less accountability.

Agreed.

SUGGESTION #3:

Put some controls on lawsuits. Litigation needs to exist for those whose lives are destroyed via incompetence, but do a google search on awards and you'll find story after story of people who've won millions and millions of dollars for, shall we say, "questionable" wrongs???

By curbing this, the doctors will spend less on malpractice insurance. It will also reduce "defensive medicine" where doctors are running unnecessary tests to as standard CYA.

Agreed. And I know I keep advocating the multi-disciplinary model for health care, but this too reduces the number of unnecessary tests. When you have several physicians with different backgrounds analyzing a patient's health, they are able to see the symptoms in a broader perspective and may be able to pinpoint the problem with fewer tests.

SUGGESTION #4:

Have some sort of oversight committee (that is comprised of medical/legal/insurance professionals) that does nothing but audit performance of medical practitioners. Let THEM keep the doctors on their toes to do what's right and to keep things in financial check.

The hospital for which I work signs contracts with doctors. Doctors earn a salary that is entirely independent of the number of procedures performed. The doctors are paid very well, but there's a catch...their contract is up for renewal every year. Renewal of a contract is dependent on outcomes, work load, quality of care, etc. You only get to keep your job if you're doing it well. At most, you can only do it poorly for a year.

SUGGESTION #5:

Reform Medicaid. I won't pretend to know HOW on this one, as it's a Hydra at this point... but perhaps make some adjustment that allows for temporary coverage of those who can PROVE they haven't the assets to afford TRULY CRUCIAL medical care.

Medicaid may not actually be in need of much reform. I learned today that auditors for medicaid and medicare were sent to hospitals in New York, Florida, and California with the purpose of auditing the billing records and identifying duplicate, excessive, and undocumented charges. After the audit was complete, they reclaimed over a billion dollars in unjustified charges. The problem is that no one is looking at what's being charged to these programs and keeping medical institutions honest. Starting later this year, the new medicare/medicaid standard will be that if the hospital doesn't properly document treatment, the hospital gets to eat the cost of care. I'm content to let this new policy take effect and see what kind of impact it has on how money moves through medicare and medicaid.