LDS Pres.

[Snow]

Actually it answers it quite well. I just don't think you like the answer.

Nope - it doesn't even interact with my question let alone answer.

God could choose anyone he wants to be his prophet - young, old, black, white, Utahan or Moroccan and yet, post Brigham Young we see nothing but old, white, United States citizens. Why does God only want em that way?

[miztrniceguy]

None of which speaks to my questions which asked why God wants only old US American prophets.

So you're saying you know the will of God? When did He reveal to you that He "wants only old US American prophets" ?

[Mahone]

Nope - it doesn't even interact with my question let alone answer.

God could choose anyone he wants to be his prophet - young, old, black, white, Utahan or Moroccan and yet, post Brigham Young we see nothing but old, white, United States citizens. Why does God only want em that way?

I think bytebears point was that the prophet is going to be someone who has been an apostle for some considerable time. He then goes on to say that 50 years ago, the church was still primarily based in Utah. There was not exactly a massive group of members which fell outside the category of caucasian Americans. So, the chances of one of these minority groups then being called as an apostle were severely reduced due to the small number of them - that makes sense. Now the church has vastly expanded, it would also make sense that will we will see prophet of a different colour skin and race in the future.

Your question seems to assume that God does only want US caucasian old men as prophets, which that isn't necessarily the case. Just because that is what has happened in the past, it doesn't mean it will always be that way.

[rameumptom]

I think God established a pattern (selecting the senior apostle) for a couple reasons: first it gives the apostle time to learn leadership and the functionings of the Church (after all, most of what they do is administration). Second, it reduces the confusion as seen in the changing of the guard in other religions. Third, it helps ensure that the core gospel concepts are not quickly changed by any radicals, as we've seen affect other churches (including the CoC).

Why they are white, probably has to do with who God has to pick from. He's prepared the current 12 for decades, from back in the time when the Church was primarily white. Right now, we have members of other races and other nationalities that are being prepared, as they are called as stake presidents, mission presidents, and area authorities. Still, there must be a balance, so as not to take great quality leaders away from areas that do not have a strong LDS presence.

[Dravin]

I think Snow is arguing that if God wanted a non-US citizen being the Prophet he could arrange it, so for the most part the people he has wanted (unless one is arguing God wants somebody else in that position but it just keeps getting filled by all these other people) are white US citizens.

My thoughts on that is of the qualities involved in being the prophet white and US isn't one of the qualifications, kinda like being right handed isn't a qualification, it just happens to be a trend amongst those who meet the qualifications he has what ever those may be.

[Justice]

Exactly Dravin. It's just the way it is because of the where and when the Church started and has grown. If you look at the GAs now verses 50 years ago you will see a dramatic difference in the number of members born outside the US.

I really don't understand your point, Snow. God set up a manner in which the succession would take place. Since it is based on tenure, it's going to take some time for the way the church has spread across the world to catch up with the senior leadership. It's not overly complicated.

The only thing I can gather from your question, Snow, since you haven't clarified your intention, is that you are asking if God prefers white Americans because they are white and because they are American.

My answer is clearly no, and it does address your point as I see it. If I misunderstand your question then you need to clairfy. Since you play devil's advocate in virtually every thread you post in, I have to use that as evidence to understand what you are trying to say. You also show a propensity to ask a lot of questions while answering none.

So, maybe try to explain your question further or tell us what you think the answer is instead of just stating your question again.

[bytebear]

I wonder if Snow would be equally upset if the church happened to start in China and most the church leaders were Chinese.

[Snow]

So you're saying you know the will of God?

You know perfectly well that I did not say or imply that... which makes me wonder why you are saying it.... well, why are you saying it?

When did He reveal to you that He "wants only old US American prophets" ?

What on earth are you talking about? I am not the one who claimed or implied that he did. I was the one asking the question.

Next time try read for content instead of speed.

[Snow]

I think Snow is arguing that if God wanted a non-US citizen being the Prophet he could arrange it, so for the most part the people he has wanted (unless one is arguing God wants somebody else in that position but it just keeps getting filled by all these other people) are white US citizens.

I didn't think that my point was all that obscure, but yes, thank you, that's it.

It's worth noting that the two most dynamic prophets in the history of the Church were the two least experienced.

[Snow]

I wonder if Snow would be equally upset if the church happened to start in China and most the church leaders were Chinese.

You guys crack me up. Asking questions, for you, equates to being upset. I, for one, like old, white Americans.

[Ezequiel]

well... John taylor was canadian, no?

[miztrniceguy]

ok...let's review

Ezequiel: God calls whom He wants to call, despite his nationality...

Snow: Why do you suppose that God only wants old, caucasian US Americans?

assorted other comments...

Snow: None of which speaks to my questions which asked why God wants only old US American prophets.

Bytebear: Actually it answers it quite well. I just don't think you like the answer.

Snow: Nope - it doesn't even interact with my question let alone answer.

God could choose anyone he wants to be his prophet - young, old, black, white, Utahan or Moroccan and yet, post Brigham Young we see nothing but old, white, United States citizens. Why does God only want em that way?

so...I think it is clear why my response was

So you're saying you know the will of God? When did He reveal to you that He "wants only old US American prophets" ?

[Misshalfway]

And just as a side note.....many of the early Saints were transplants too. So many were immigrants from England and later other places in Europe. My Great Grandmother joined the church in Norway (late 1800's) and then, after being disowned by her family, migrated to the US and became a nanny for my GGrandfather. I remember my grandmother telling me about how she and so many of the saints in her small Utah town had accents from Norway or Sweden or other similar places.

The leadership of this church is primarily American because this is the country of its birth. Had the church been restored in South America, most of its leadership would look that that part of the world too.

You have to remember that the church is relatively young. As the church expands through out the globe, it will look less and less like a white dominated American thing and more like the Lord's global kingdom.

[Guest missingsomething]

Yes...we are created by the same GOD. Doesn't it matter whom, where, the brethren are born? No!

YEAH Hemi..

Last time I checked, above all... I was part of the HUMAN race....

[Guest missingsomething]

I think Snow is arguing that if God wanted a non-US citizen being the Prophet he could arrange it, so for the most part the people he has wanted (unless one is arguing God wants somebody else in that position but it just keeps getting filled by all these other people) are white US citizens.

My thoughts on that is of the qualities involved in being the prophet white and US isn't one of the qualifications, kinda like being right handed isn't a qualification, it just happens to be a trend amongst those who meet the qualifications he has what ever those may be.

Dravin....

I believe Heavenly Father has in place who is supposed to be in ... why has it primiarily been white? Well because it takes time to foster and develop the open communication lines of faith and utter trust in the Lord... I mean even Joseph got things line upon line....

So the other poster who referenced that the church is just now getting strong and growing to expand to other countries does answer the question - as does the poster that there has been a non-us citizen (early on) who was president. I doubt Heavenly Father would call a bishop from China as he has not experienced line upon line. Our church is and will always be one of order. (Thats why we were recently counseled by the 1st presidency to get our homes in "order"). Order allows the spirit to flow. I believe the years of callings prepares them for the calling of the church president.... Yes, Heavenly Father COULD bypass this... but he has consistantly chosen older, wiser men (Abraham...).

[Guest missingsomething]

two most dynamic prophets in the history of the Church were the two least experienced.

In your opinion... the two most dynamic... to each is different. But you are right... age does not equate to better spirituality.

[Guest missingsomething]

And just as a side note.....many of the early Saints were transplants too. So many were immigrants from England and later other places in Europe. My Great Grandmother joined the church in Norway (late 1800's) and then, after being disowned by her family, migrated to the US and became a nanny for my GGrandfather. I remember my grandmother telling me about how she and so many of the saints in her small Utah town had accents from Norway or Sweden or other similar places.

The leadership of this church is primarily American because this is the country of its birth. Had the church been restored in South America, most of its leadership would look that that part of the world too.

You have to remember that the church is relatively young. As the church expands through out the globe, it will look less and less like a white dominated American thing and more like the Lord's global kingdom.

Just as a side note... correct... unless you are NATIVE AMERICAN... you're family was also transplants. We are a blend of many nationalities....that is the "American" nationality- Heinz 57 Variety mix! :) Thx Miss

[Dravin]

Just as a side note... correct... unless you are NATIVE AMERICAN... you're family was also transplants. We are a blend of many nationalities....that is the "American" nationality- Heinz 57 Variety mix! :) Thx Miss

Actually the Native Americans are transplants as well, just not as recent.

[Ezequiel]

@ Snow : I think this is a ridiculous argument. The point is that our prophets have been preordained to their earthly calling. If God did want them to be of different nationalities, He would have done so! Lets remember the prophet is to represent the Lord and not a specific nation!

[Justice]

I think age is related to spirituality, to some degree.

We become spiritual to the degree we can put off the natural man and overcome the flesh. Age has a natural tendancy to accomplish some of this for us. Much like fasting helps us overcome the body by denying it something in wants/needs. Age is part of God's plan to help us overcome some things that are very difficult for many. We typically become lass prideful as we age also. I think this is all by design.

[Dr T]

But what of Jesus' point about children too, heaven being for such, but then again there is the "putting off old things" idea too. Hmmmmm...

[Justice]

Yes, to become "as a child." We are to become meek, submissive, full of love, patient, and willing to submit to all things God sees fit to inflict upon us (paraphrase). If you think about it, some of that comes with age.

The comparison between how young children are like older people has been made often.

[Snow]

In your opinion... the two most dynamic... to each is different. But you are right... age does not equate to better spirituality.

Well certainly we have been blessed with some wonderful and amazing leadership, each with special gifts and talents that have served in different meaningful ways. Most of would say that Gordon B. Hinckley stands out as a recent example of excellence among many other excellent leaders... but there is not doubt that those that have had the greatest impact on the restoration were those from the LDS heroic era - Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

[HEthePrimate]

US citizenship is not a requirement to be President of LDS church.

Maybe not even President of US. :)

Ben Raines

PS: I couldn't resist. Sorry for derailing the thread.

Yeah, they could even be Hawaiian nationals! Long live Queen Liliʻuokalani!

HEP