When did the ban on Blacks holding the Priesthood start

[bmy-]

I assume that Believer is LDS?

As LDS members I think we all share a commitment to truth so one would hope that he/she would eventually come around.

I thought so too. Maybe one day..

[Guest Believer_1829]

If "coming" around means discarding scripture, I will take a pass. But thank you ever so much for your care and concern.

[Snow]

If "coming" around means discarding scripture, I will take a pass. But thank you ever so much for your care and concern.

Then let me ask - the theory that the land masses separated millions of years ago, not 5000 years ago, is based on science. What scientific evidence would it take for you abandon your 5000 year view?

[Guest Believer_1829]

Then let me ask - the theory that the land masses separated millions of years ago, not 5000 years ago, is based on science. What scientific evidence would it take for you abandon your 5000 year view?

You mean what would it take for me to abandon scripture? I won't abandon scripture. Now if the Sealed Portion or Brass Plates make some indication that you are correct, then we'll talk.

Is it fun going around trying to get people to lose faith in God's written word?

[Snow]

You mean what would it take for me to abandon scripture? I won't abandon scripture. Now if the Sealed Portion or Brass Plates make some indication that you are correct, then we'll talk.

Is it fun going around trying to get people to lose faith in God's written word?

That's a perfect demonstration of the insanity religion foists upon some people.

No truth, no fact, no reality would persuade you away from your dogma.

Scary.

[Guest Believer_1829]

That's a perfect demonstration of the insanity religion foists upon some people.

No truth, no fact, no reality would persuade you away from your dogma.

Scary.

Scary? Hmmm, seem to recall it's Evolutionists that wrecked quite a bit of havoc last century. (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao) but I digress.

Me, all I want is to be left alone by naysayers such as yourself, who try to tear down people's faith.

[KrazyKay]

If God can create the earth in 6 days, why can't he separate the continents in 1 year?

I think you need to read this article, it explains much clearer than I can write: The Gospel and the Scientific View: How the Earth Came to Be

But this thread is getting off topic about Blacks holding the Priesthood.

[Snow]

Scary? Hmmm, seem to recall it's Evolutionists that wrecked quite a bit of havoc last century. (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao) but I digress.

Me, all I want is to be left alone by naysayers such as yourself, who try to tear down people's faith.

You can't be a real poster - you have to be doing this as a joke - right?

1. You aren't making a bit of sense - the issue was about evidence and faith, not genocide.

2. Hilter was likely a creationist - having said so himself.

3. Religionists have been as responsible for as much evil as atheists - however - and this is a big point - religionists murder in the name of religion, for religious reasons. Atheists that murder don't do it on account of atheism, they just don't think there are eternal consequences for their actions.

Tell me the truth - are you saying all this as a joke?

[Snow]

If God can create the earth in 6 days, why can't he separate the continents in 1 year?

Completely irrelevant. The question is not whether or not God is powerful. It is about was happened... what was done, not what could have been done.

[bmy-]

Scary? Hmmm, seem to recall it's Evolutionists that wrecked quite a bit of havoc last century. (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao) but I digress.

Me, all I want is to be left alone by naysayers such as yourself, who try to tear down people's faith.

No one here is trying to tear down your faith. We're trying to get you to use your brain. You can use both -- it's possible.

Snow said it best.. "scary"

[Guest]

Believer, I have to go with Snow on this. You're a convert? I have only been LDS for 7 years. The religion I grew up in believed that the earth was created in LITERALLY 7 days since the Holy Bible says so right there in Genesis and the day and night has always been 24 hours since the dawn of man. It wasn't until I converted to LDS that science and religion clicked like 2 pieces of one puzzle in my head. That's one of the main reasons I converted. LDS do not believe in the earth being created in 7 literal days. The book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price do not say, "On the 2nd day..." or "On the 3rd day.." but rather "the second time.." or "the third time...". So, the 2nd time may have been millions of earth days taking time to let things evolve into existence.

So, a lot of times, when I encounter a friction between science and religion, I usually stop and analyze if my religious knowledge was from the eons before becoming LDS and then try to bounce it against LDS doctrine if they match. I have a feeling this might be where the disagreement between you and Snow lie, if not then please just ignore the rest of this post.

Let's check your interpretation of the scriptures and discuss it. If you post the scripture right here, you, Snow, et. al., can present the LDS interpretation of it, and see why you differ. I'm looking forward to this because I feel I can learn from it as well. Thanks.

[rameumptom]

You mean what would it take for me to abandon scripture? I won't abandon scripture. Now if the Sealed Portion or Brass Plates make some indication that you are correct, then we'll talk.

Is it fun going around trying to get people to lose faith in God's written word?

Where in scripture does it say the land masses split in the days of Peleg? I have always read that as the day when the peoples split (aka Tower of Babel).

That's one of the fun things about scripture, there is often more than one way of reading it. And it is too easy to assume one thing, when another is meant.

BTW, do you believe that Eve was literally made from Adam's rib? Or do you agree with Pres Brigham Young and Elder McConkie that this was symbolic?

[Hemidakota]

Then let me ask - the theory that the land masses separated millions of years ago, not 5000 years ago, is based on science. What scientific evidence would it take for you abandon your 5000 year view?

You need to ask FATHER in regards to what had happen vice following man made theories on this subject. Though, you may not like what is given; especially, what was north in Adams time versus our time. Rehashing old topic, what was the geological environment of Adam time will shortly change in a few years by returning to its original boundaries; including polar alignment.

Last, no! There was no exactness of time to place on what happen to the previous plants inhabitants [up to the animal kingdom since it failed] with trying to place current time frame with the changes of land masses when this planet did not originate in this solar system and will be moved back to another location where it originated.

Even California will see some dramatic changes shortly.

[Hemidakota]

Where in scripture does it say the land masses split in the days of Peleg? I have always read that as the day when the peoples split (aka Tower of Babel).

That's one of the fun things about scripture, there is often more than one way of reading it. And it is too easy to assume one thing, when another is meant.

BTW, do you believe that Eve was literally made from Adam's rib? Or do you agree with Pres Brigham Young and Elder McConkie that this was symbolic?

Do you really know for sure on what had happened to the world prior to Noah deluge?

Why should GOD give a symbolic meaning?

[Hemidakota]

Believer, I have to go with Snow on this. You're a convert? I have only been LDS for 7 years. The religion I grew up in believed that the earth was created in LITERALLY 7 days since the Holy Bible says so right there in Genesis and the day and night has always been 24 hours since the dawn of man. It wasn't until I converted to LDS that science and religion clicked like 2 pieces of one puzzle in my head. That's one of the main reasons I converted. LDS do not believe in the earth being created in 7 literal days. The book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price do not say, "On the 2nd day..." or "On the 3rd day.." but rather "the second time.." or "the third time...". So, the 2nd time may have been millions of earth days taking time to let things evolve into existence.

So, a lot of times, when I encounter a friction between science and religion, I usually stop and analyze if my religious knowledge was from the eons before becoming LDS and then try to bounce it against LDS doctrine if they match. I have a feeling this might be where the disagreement between you and Snow lie, if not then please just ignore the rest of this post.

Let's check your interpretation of the scriptures and discuss it. If you post the scripture right here, you, Snow, et. al., can present the LDS interpretation of it, and see why you differ. I'm looking forward to this because I feel I can learn from it as well. Thanks.

Since it was Moses own observation on what he saw and put in writing, a comparison is in order with others on the same subject [Abraham account or Joseph Smith statement]...

[Guest Believer_1829]

Believer, I have to go with Snow on this. You're a convert? I have only been LDS for 7 years. The religion I grew up in believed that the earth was created in LITERALLY 7 days since the Holy Bible says so right there in Genesis and the day and night has always been 24 hours since the dawn of man. It wasn't until I converted to LDS that science and religion clicked like 2 pieces of one puzzle in my head. That's one of the main reasons I converted. LDS do not believe in the earth being created in 7 literal days. The book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price do not say, "On the 2nd day..." or "On the 3rd day.." but rather "the second time.." or "the third time...". So, the 2nd time may have been millions of earth days taking time to let things evolve into existence.

So, a lot of times, when I encounter a friction between science and religion, I usually stop and analyze if my religious knowledge was from the eons before becoming LDS and then try to bounce it against LDS doctrine if they match. I have a feeling this might be where the disagreement between you and Snow lie, if not then please just ignore the rest of this post.

Let's check your interpretation of the scriptures and discuss it. If you post the scripture right here, you, Snow, et. al., can present the LDS interpretation of it, and see why you differ. I'm looking forward to this because I feel I can learn from it as well. Thanks.

I understand LDS teachings perfectly well, thank you. And you should review my posts so you can disabuse yourself of the idea that I said the Earth was created in 7 literal days. Because I have identified myself as a believer in the Flood story and the separation of the Earth in Peleg's day, you have automatically assigned beliefs to me that you have know way of knowing whether I have or not. My disagreement with Snow does not come because of some misunderstanding of LDS teachings.

This topic WAS for discussing the issue of the Blacks being denied the Priesthood for 140 years, not Darwinism and the interpretation of scripture. So whatever you want to discuss, please start it in a new topic.

[Hemidakota]

From President Spencer W. Kimball earlier writings prior to change [Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball]:

Priesthood limitation on blacks was changed by revelation. The things of God cannot be understood by the spirit of men. It is impossible to always measure and weigh all spiritual things by man's yardstick or scales. Admittedly, our direct and positive information is limited. I have wished the Lord had given us a little more clarity in the matter. But for me, it is enough. The prophets for 133 years of the existence of the Church have maintained the position of the prophet of the Restoration that the Negro could not hold the priesthood nor have the temple ordinances which are preparatory for exaltation. I believe in the living prophets as much or almost more than the dead ones. They are here to clarify and reaffirm. I have served with and under three of them. The doctrine or policy has not varied in my memory. I know it could. I know the Lord could change his policy and release the ban and forgive the possible error which brought about the deprivation. If the time comes, that he will do, I am sure. These smart members who would force the issue, and there are many of them, cheapen the issue and certainly bring into contempt the sacred principle of revelation and divine authority. (6/15/63)

Blacks and the priesthood: I am not sure that there will be a change, although there could be. We are under the dictates of our Heavenly Father, and this is not my policy or the Church's policy. It is the policy of the Lord who has established it, and I know of no change, although we are subject to revelations of the Lord in case he should ever wish to make a change. (73-11)

Now, there is one other thing I want to mention. You live in South Africa. As you know, on the ninth of June a policy was changed that affects great numbers of people throughout the world. Millions and millions of people will be affected by the revelation which came. I remember very vividly that day after day I walked to the temple and ascended to the fourth floor where we have our solemn assemblies and where we have our meetings of the Twelve and the First Presidency. After everybody had gone out of the temple, I knelt and prayed. I prayed with much fervency. I knew that something was before us that was extremely important to many of the children of God. I knew that we could receive the revelations of the Lord only by being worthy and ready for them and ready to accept them and put them into place. Day after day I went alone and with great solemnity and seriousness in the upper rooms of the temple, and there I offered my soul and offered my efforts to go forward with the program. I wanted to do what he wanted. I talked about it to him and said, "Lord, I want only what is right. We are not making any plans to be spectacularly moving. We want only the thing that thou dost want, and we want it when you want it and not until."

We met with the Council of the Twelve Apostles, time after time in the holy room where there is a picture of the Savior in many different moods and also pictures of all the Presidents of the Church. Finally we had the feeling and the impression from the Lord, who made it very clear to us, that this was the thing to do to make the gospel universal to all worthy people. You will meet this situation undoubtedly as you bring the gospel to them on condition that their lives can be changed.

I anticipate the day when the gospel, that has come to you and your families and has transformed your lives, will begin to transform their lives and make new people out of them. They become people who will love the Lord and who will make the same sacrifices that you make. (78-30)

Until recently there was one group of people that had not been permitted to have the priesthood. But since June ninth of this year every boy that has ever been born is eligible for the priesthood if he will qualify. It matters not as to his color or his race. All boys have an equal chance to have these blessings.

One of the Brethren said yesterday that now has come one of the greatest changes and blessings that has ever been knownÂ…. Outside of a few people who always want to be contrary, the people of the world have accepted this change with their gratitude. So we are very, very happy about this, especially for those who had been deprived of these blessings before. (78-21)

We had the glorious experience of having the Lord indicate clearly that the time had come when all worthy men and women everywhere can be fellow heirs and partakers of the full blessings of the gospel. I want you to know, as a special witness of the Savior how close I have felt to him and to our Heavenly Father as I have made numerous visits to the upper rooms in the temple, going on some days several times by myself. The Lord made it very clear to me what was to be done. We do not expect the people of the world to understand such things, for they will always be quick to assign their own reasons or to discount the divine process of revelation. (79-02)

(FPM 21-46 describes many other modern revelations)

Edited August 10, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Guest Believer_1829]

From President Spencer W. Kimball earlier writings prior to change [Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball]:

Not to get into semantics but let's examine the first quote a bit...

- This quote was given in 1963. 1963 - 133 = 1830. Pres. Kimball says the leaders have maintained the view of the prophet of the Restoration (Joseph Smith Jr.) for that amount of time (133 years) that blacks could not hold the Priesthood. But that flies in the face of the fact that Joseph ordained about 6 black men during his lifetime (after 1830) and the fact that there is not a single quote from Joseph upholding a Priesthood ban on black men.

[Hemidakota]

Some personal insight to President David O. McKay and what transpired -

Planting the Seeds in West Africa

Meanwhile, one of the most unusual conversion stories in Church history was taking place in western Africa: a part of the world where the Church was unable, at least for the time being, to open a mission, yet where perhaps thousands of people were literally begging for missionaries to come.

It began in Nigeria when several groups of black Christians somehow obtained Church books, believed them, organized churches patterned after what they read in the literature, and wrote to Church headquarters asking for missionaries. In 1960, at the request of the First Presidency, Glen G. Fisher visited some of them as he returned to Utah from his assignment as president of the South African Mission. He received a sincere and warm welcome and found that members of the various congregations he visited were anxious to be baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

This presented a perplexing challenge to Church leaders. It had been Church policy almost from the beginning not to ordain blacks to the priesthood, and Church leaders believed the policy could not be changed without direct revelation. Yet here were whole congregations of sincere, faithful blacks asking to have the Church established among them. President McKay wanted to do something about it, but the question was whether a Church organization could be set up and staffed among the Nigerians when they could not hold the priesthood and therefore could not run it themselves. 5 Ironically, when President Fisher explained the policy to them, the Nigerians were not too concerned; they only wanted more literature, help in building chapels, and to be baptized.

With letters from Nigerians pouring in, by 1961 President McKay concluded that the Church must permit the Nigerians to be baptized and confirmed members of the Church. He cogently observed to his counselors that this problem was even greater than that faced by the Twelve in New Testament times when the question of whether the gentiles should have the gospel shook the Church. The Lord would have to let them know what to do, he said, and when the Lord was ready He would open the door. Until then they could only tell the people they could go so far and no farther.

As a preliminary step, in October the First Presidency sent LaMar S. Williams to Nigeria on a fact-finding trip. After spending a month traveling from village to village through the jungle, meeting with many congregations in mud huts and tiny chapels, and hearing hundreds of fervent testimonies from expectant Nigerians who had been praying for the arrival of missionaries from Utah, Williams returned convinced. The various congregations of "Latter-day Saints" were often quite independent of each other, but, Williams reported, they were sincere and certainly worthy of baptism. Before the end of February 1962, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve decided to open a mission in Nigeria. In March, Williams was called to return there, along with his wife, Nyal, to preside over a district to be established under the umbrella of the West European Mission. Four additional couples were soon selected to assist. On November 21 Williams was set apart by President McKay as the first missionary to the black people of Nigeria and told to establish the Church, conduct missionary work, and organize all the auxiliaries, with local members supervising the auxiliaries.

The would-be Saints in Nigeria were ecstatic but, unfortunately, the long hoped-for mission was not destined to open at that time. Nigeria had only recently gained independence from British colonial rule, and government officials were suspicious of outsiders. When they learned of the priesthood policy they immediately denied visas to LDS missionaries. Williams spent the next three years trying unsuccessfully to obtain vises, and the Nigerian "Saints" mounted their own campaign to try to convince their government that the Church posed no threat. In 1964 one group even had itself officially incorporated under Nigerian law as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. " Meanwhile, the Nigerians sent a few young people to Brigham Young University, supported in part by scholarship funds raised by Williams and other Saints. Each of them was baptized before returning home. Twice Williams returned briefly on temporary visitor's visas. During his second visit in October 1965, he was suddenly recalled to Salt Lake City. The First Presidency had decided to make no further efforts at that time to open the mission. Only two months later a violent military coup in Nigeria became the opening wedge of a bloody civil conflict, the Biafran War. The war wreaked havoc with the congregations of "Saints," though many people continued to watch, wait, and pray for the day when the Church finally could be established among them. That happy time was about twelve years away.

In nearby Ghana, meanwhile, a similar story was taking place. Sometime in 1962 a missionary tract, the "Joseph Smith Story," found its way into the hands of a black religious leader, Dr. A. F. Mensah, who was converted almost immediately. He soon converted several others, organized a "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," and began to correspond with LaMar Williams at the Missionary Department of the Church. In 1964 he gave a copy of the Book of Mormon as well as other literature to J. W. B. Johnson who, after reading it and receiving a series of dramatic personal revelations, was also converted and became equally successful in spreading the gospel among fellow Ghanians. Eventually Johnson and his followers formed several "Latter-day Saint" congregations, somewhat independent of Mensah. Mensah, Johnson, and others continued through the 1970s to preach the gospel as they understood it, and to plead with the Church for missionaries and for the official establishment of the Church among them. They were helped and encouraged, at times, by a number of Saints from Utah who were in their country on temporary teaching or other professional assignments, or on business. For the time being, however, the Church could make no official response to their continuing requests for missionaries and baptism.

Even though none of this resulted in any numerical growth for the Church, it is important to an understanding of the 1960s as a time of transition. Many things were changing as the Church faced the myriad challenges of international growth, and in that spirit Church leaders seriously considered opening a unique mission among the blacks of western Africa despite the fact that it could not yet grant them the priesthood. The mission was delayed but the Spirit was at work in Nigeria and Ghana as surely as it was elsewhere, planting seeds that eventually produced a rich harvest after the revelation on priesthood finally came in 1978. Story of the Latter-day Saints by Glen M. Leonard, James B. Allen

[Hemidakota]

Not to get into semantics but let's examine the first quote a bit...

- This quote was given in 1963. 1963 - 133 = 1830. Pres. Kimball says the leaders have maintained the view of the prophet of the Restoration (Joseph Smith Jr.) for that amount of time (133 years) that blacks could not hold the Priesthood. But that flies in the face of the fact that Joseph ordained about 6 black men during his lifetime (after 1830) and the fact that there is not a single quote from Joseph upholding a Priesthood ban on black men.

Go back and look at the dates when Joseph baptized and ordained black members of the church, including one to become a 70. Then look at the last date of last one to be ordained and tell me, what significant event occurred? You will also find, none were given the opportunity for temple endowments. Why? Joseph simple stopped for a reason.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Go back and look at the dates when Joseph baptized and ordained black members of the church, including one to become a 70. Then look at the last date of last one to be ordained and tell me, what significant event occurred? You will also find, none were given the opportunity for temple endowments. Why? Joseph simple stopped for a reason.

Yet no revelation reversing policy and not a single public statement about it from Joseph.

[Hemidakota]

Yes but even Prophets do make personal mistakes. You will notice, the Lord did not change this issue until later when we received it under the hands of President Kimball. Even my friend Scott, was not allowed the priesthood since he had Canaanite bloodline until this revelation and he was white.

However, do your own research for yourself and pay heed to the spirit when you do. You will find something interesting occurred during Joseph later years.

[Guest]

I understand LDS teachings perfectly well, thank you. And you should review my posts so you can disabuse yourself of the idea that I said the Earth was created in 7 literal days. Because I have identified myself as a believer in the Flood story and the separation of the Earth in Peleg's day, you have automatically assigned beliefs to me that you have know way of knowing whether I have or not. My disagreement with Snow does not come because of some misunderstanding of LDS teachings.

This topic WAS for discussing the issue of the Blacks being denied the Priesthood for 140 years, not Darwinism and the interpretation of scripture. So whatever you want to discuss, please start it in a new topic.

Believer, sheath the claws man! I did not say YOU believed in 7 days... I said I did! Cool down, senior. And sorry if I don't know who you are... hence my question if you're a convert. Because, it could be that we're talking LDS versus non-LDS scripture which I still get confused over. But, it is kinda difficult to know who somebody is through the computer. For all I know, you're a genius 7-year-old Suni girl pretending to be LDS in a scheme to control the world (okay, so I like Ender's Game).

And I was truly curious and hoping to learn something since the thread has gone on that tangent for a while, I thought I'd add to it. And I was very nice about it too! Or so I thought. But, sure, go on ahead. I'll just slink back into my observation corner and let you guys hash it out.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Believer, sheath the claws man! I did not say YOU believed in 7 days... I said I did! Cool down, senior. And sorry if I don't know who you are... hence my question if you're a convert. Because, it could be that we're talking LDS versus non-LDS scripture which I still get confused over. But, it is kinda difficult to know who somebody is through the computer. For all I know, you're a genius 7-year-old Suni girl pretending to be LDS in a scheme to control the world (okay, so I like Ender's Game).

And I was truly curious and hoping to learn something since the thread has gone on that tangent for a while, I thought I'd add to it. And I was very nice about it too! Or so I thought. But, sure, go on ahead. I'll just slink back into my observation corner and let you guys hash it out.

My bad, I guess I read your post wrong, sorry. I use the Bible and Book of Mormon as scripture, just so we are clear.

But we really should move it somewhere besides this topic...

Now come here and give me a

[Snow]

I understand LDS teachings perfectly well, thank you. And you should review my posts so you can disabuse yourself of the idea that I said the Earth was created in 7 literal days. Because I have identified myself as a believer in the Flood story and the separation of the Earth in Peleg's day, you have automatically assigned beliefs to me that you have know way of knowing whether I have or not. My disagreement with Snow does not come because of some misunderstanding of LDS teachings.

This topic WAS for discussing the issue of the Blacks being denied the Priesthood for 140 years, not Darwinism and the interpretation of scripture. So whatever you want to discuss, please start it in a new topic.

Don't be that way Believer. Answer the questions if you can.