The Bible is so confusing!

[Guest Believer_1829]

I was just reading some random pages of the Bible, and it is like reading a language from Mars! Some of it is just plain hard to understand. And it always seems to contradict itself. Take a look at this.

Crazy stuff from the bible

What am I supposed to believe?

Instead of trying to figure out every little inconsistency, just relax and remember, as you read, that the sole purpose of the Bible is to point us to Jesus Christ our Savior. That will sustain you through all the "Huh?" moments.

:)

[prisonchaplain]

Believer hit upon an approach I often recommend--read the Bible through quickly--in 3-4 months. It means 10-12 chapters a day. Quite a task? Give yourself permission to skim. The purpose is to catch the over all message and flavor of the Bible. If it truly is one book in 66, then overarching themes will develop as you read. Feel free to breeze through the geneologies, the lists of materials for building, etc. Just try to capture key stories and lessons. When you are done, do it again, two or three times. Perhaps making this a year long project.

I've done this, and now, when I read about inconsistencies and alleged contradictions, I find that the intepretations that usually lead to these questions is off--it doesn't fit the overall flow of Scripture.

My suggestion is not the be all and end all of Bible apologetics, but I've found it a great help for discerning doctrine, interpretation, and for building my faith overall.

[Guest Believer_1829]

I did 5 chapters a day through the OT and was surprised at how much insight I gained.

[Seanette]

Well, starting in late September, I believe there's a challenge being discussed to do the Old Testament in 100 days (which would be about 9 chapters/day).

[Galatians220]

Galatians,

While I agree with many of your interpretations, they are still interpretations. You must create a context within which it all fits.

There are key verses and events that do not fit.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

I suggest we do not leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ in order to go on to perfection, but that we follow the principle to perfection. Otherwise, Mathew 5:48 is meaningless, since we could not become perfect in Christ's doctrine.

Also, the 10 Commandments teach, Thou Shalt Not Kill, but then Moses and Joshua are commanded to annihilate cities, killing all the women and children. Once again, unless a context is established, it seems that God is feckless.

They are interpretations, but who's interpretation? Mine? Yours? The Translators? To say that it is just an interpretation is putting God out of the picture, particularly when He said clearly that he will preserve his Words. See my Statement of Faith titled "Does God's Word have Errors?"

I understand that translating from one language to another is difficult and there I have to agree with you because one also has to be mindful of grammer rules and proper words but it isn't impossible to translate the essence of the sentence no matter how simple and un-advance the language is.

Languages vary according to how simple to complex they are, depending on how advanced the civilization. The OT language, Hebrew, is as simple as our english language. However, the Greek is much more accurate. We have a one word for "Love," the Greek used in NT, Koine Greek, has 4. There is even a greek OT called the Septuagint so combine Hebrew translations and Greek, you can match and compare.

Now I have to correct your use of your use of Hebrews. Hebrews 6:1 is talking about Dead Works coming from the Mosaic Law in order to be saved. The last Chapter was about Jesus fulfilling the Order of Melchizedek for Salvation of all but addressed to the Jews who are sitting on a fense. That is why it says "...not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God"

I agree with you on this however, I must give God my time to listen to him and learn from His Word. I should not let anything get in the way of that so your advice I will always heed but I cannot abandon the Bible because we are talking about God's Word here. If you believe in the same God i do, you should have been with me on this.

Personal Beliefs » does god?s word have errors » LDS Mormon Network

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Edited August 3, 2009 by Galatians220

[EruditioSalvatus]

An important fact to remember:
All explanations are interpretations.

[Galatians220]

Galatians,

Also, the 10 Commandments teach, Thou Shalt Not Kill, but then Moses and Joshua are commanded to annihilate cities, killing all the women and children. Once again, unless a context is established, it seems that God is feckless.

I forgot about this one....

The word for Kill "Ratsach," means also to Murder (1). There's a difference between murder and Kill. Soldiers have to Kill or be Killed, as well as to eliminate threats to our country. Some of us had to kill for self preservation or because if we didn't , the assailant would have murdered someone else.

Either way... it is, an ending of a life. Nevertheless, Killing in the battlefield is not the same as killing Abel. If you still hold to the use of the word, kill, then why would God give instructions when it comes to War (Deuteronomy 20)?

Now why did Moses ordered the killing of men, women, and children? It is because of the sins of the people, they are judged:

4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee. - Deuteronomy 9:4

However cruel this may be, this is God's judgment upon a people who will not repent. From the time the Hebrews went into Egypt to the time they've left, was 400 years. From that time span, they could have changed their ways but they have done abominations continuously including infant sacrifices, lewdness, homosexuality and general sinfulness. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by their wickedness, why not the nations that forget God?

23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. - Leviticus 20:23

Read chapter 18, and 20, and you'll see the kind of wickedness the Canaanites are guilty of. God reserves the right to judge the nations according to what he sees fit. Our morality can change over the years; we should not judge scripture by our values

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. - Isaiah 55:8

I'm sure someone will post me saying "God says thou shalt not steal, yet God allows plundering...." What He has given, can He not take away (Exodus 19:5)?

Now I understand about establishing context... but that's no different than any book you read. Anyone, can take Any book and isolate a sentence alleging that so and so believed in vigilante justice.

I think the reason why this seemed to be difficult is because the Bible is a very large book.

The background can be as big as 3 chapters to 5 books away; but it is not impossible to find the context if you know the Bible for yourself.

There are resources to solve these errors and contradictions. the online site I've given is the very best I've seen; its CARM - Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.

1. Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Edited August 3, 2009 by Galatians220

[Galatians220]

An important fact to remember:

All explanations are interpretations.

Not so when you use context which is the background of the verse. That means you're using the verses around it to clearly explain why. There's no way one can twist the background when it is plain to read

[ztodd]

Not so when you use context which is the background of the verse. That means you're using the verses around it to clearly explain why. There's no way one can twist the background when it is plain to read

Unless they interpret those background verses differently :)

[Galatians220]

Unless they interpret those background verses differently :)

12 The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.

19 That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.

20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,

21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee? - Proverbs 22:12, 19-21

If they can somehow interpret a clearly red color, as a blue image, even though the color background is a mix of green and yellow, then they're either on denial, on drugs, drunk, or hallucinating. The fact is that what makes red is not any other color but Green and Yellow because that's the context of Red.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Galatians220

[rameumptom]

Now why did Moses ordered the killing of men, women, and children? It is because of the sins of the people, they are judged:

So, you are saying that little children (of such are the kingdom of heaven), are sinful and refusing to repent? My that's an interesting interpretation.

I agree that there can be a difference between war and murder. That was not the point, however. The point is that the women and children were not war combatants. They were slaughtered by God's command.

I believe in the Bible and what it teaches. My point all along has been that while it is the word of God, it is not "God breathed". It was written by way of man's weaknesses, meaning the Bible is inspired, but imperfect. We do not have Moses' original writings, rather we have a combination of different writers who wrote their version of Moses' history.

This is why the Bible can say that no man can see God's face, while also stating several had seen his face and lived. I agree with you that this means God's glory. Still, that is not evident in the scripture, which is why I continually have discussions with people online on why God's face CAN be seen (just not his full glory).

We need continuing revelation and prophets today to clarify the things that are not as clear as you think they are. For there are entire churches that would disagree with some of your viewpoints (such as on seeing God's face).

[rameumptom]

12 The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.

19 That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.

20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,

21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee? - Proverbs 22:12, 19-21

If they can somehow interpret a clearly red color, as a blue image, even though the color background is a mix of green and yellow, then they're either on denial, on drugs, drunk, or hallucinating. The fact is that what makes red is not any other color but Green and Yellow because that's the context of Red.

And yet people still see different things in the same Bible. Perceptions are just different, not requiring any denial, drugs, etc.

The difference between gaining Bible context and the context of colors, is that we do not know all of the Bible's exact history. There are conflicts with archaeology and science in some areas (evolution, 6000 year old vs 4 billion year old earth, Adam as first person, etc). It isn't that any of this isn't true, but that each conflict causes people to perceive things in different ways. Some deny the fossil record , in order to believe in Adam and a 6000 year old earth. Others incorporate it, realizing that perhaps 6000 years is a bit short. Some end up disbelieving in the scripture because of the apparent controversy.

When Moses proclaims his Law as an everlasting covenant, but then Jesus fulfills it, who is correct? Unless we are willing to use a little bit of magic to bring the two together, there is an apparent disconnect. Yes, you can use the term "context" to bring them together, but the disconnect is still there; unless we determine that Moses said something different than what was written down.

For all of this, we have a few choices. We can ignore parts of it and live with what we like. We can try to put things into our own context. We can reject it all. Or we can ask those who know the original author of all things - the prophets. "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, save he reveal his secrets through his servants, the prophets" (Amos 3:7). Prophets and apostles are the foundation of Christ's Church (Ephesians 2), and need to be available to us until we "all come to a unity of the faith" in Christ (Eph 4).

In this way, we get things in God's context, and not our own.

[Galatians220]

So, you are saying that little children (of such are the kingdom of heaven), are sinful and refusing to repent? My that's an interesting interpretation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. - Matthew 23:15

If a child is raised in a culture of sin, corruption, violence, and hate, the child under the example of those around him will be twice as worse as the parents.

A perfect example of this are the people of the Arab world. While the West have been known expansions from the taking of the Americas to the hording of Africa and parts of Asia, the Middle easterners are known for their hatred, wars, violence, and savagery. In fact, we get the word, “Assassins” from the group of Persian murderers who would kill for religious and political reasons (1)

For example, Sunnis and Shiites have taught their children to hate and fear the Crusaders and each other so for generations on end, the Sunnis and Shiites warred against each other and have the fear and distrust in westerners. On savagery, violence, and wars, what we have seen in the middle east against the two Israeli soldiers, the four defense contracters at Fallujah, is a product of centuries of practices. This is due to the fact that they gained their ways from the Bedouins who are the decendants of Ishmael (2):

11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. - Genesis 16:11

This is also due to Islam which have driven many to war against any infidel whom they believed to be persecuting them. Those who wanted to go to war used the many Jihadi verses, about 164 of them to justifiy their actions against the Westerners and other unbelievers (3). To be fair, Muhammad wrote the Koran in time when he was fighting against his persecuters but the context showed no reference to that war. The Jihadi verses can easily be taken as a mission to rid the world of the Unbelievers and from the very beginning, the misson of the Muslim Extremists is to turn the world from Dar Al-Harb (House of War) to Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) (4)

I agree that there can be a difference between war and murder. That was not the point, however. The point is that the women and children were not war combatants. They were slaughtered by God's command.

If they were ordered by God to destroy these people, then don't you think God has a good reason why?

1St, they were annihilated because they are a wicked people whom God can no longer tolerate (Deuteronomy 9:4).

2Nd, God reserved the right to give, and take because everything belonged to him (Exodus 19:5, Psalm 9:16-17).

3rd. He, by nature is Holy and Righteous so he must be Just in all His doing (Exodus 34:6-7). If He does nothing, He ceases to be Just.

I believe in the Bible and what it teaches. My point all along has been that while it is the word of God, it is not "God breathed". It was written by way of man's weaknesses, meaning the Bible is inspired, but imperfect. We do not have Moses' original writings, rather we have a combination of different writers who wrote their version of Moses' history.

Well can God keep His word or not? We both know that it is impossible to preserve the text made of perishable material so we wouldn't have the “Original” copies anyways. The oldest text is known today as the Dead Sea Scrolls made 100BC; it was found accidentally but it proved that the OT hasn't changed much at all. And according to Bible scholars, there are about 5000 NT manuscripts and all of them agree with one another. The oldest NT manuscript, the Alexandrian Text is made in the 2nd Cen. AD.

But even if we only have the Textus Receptus (which the KJV was based on), He made absolutely clear that He keeps His Word pure (Psalm 12:6), that He Preserved His Word (Proverbs 22:12) and that He hold's His Word to high esteem in a culture where Names have great meaning and importance (Psalm 138:2).

God cannot Lie, if somehow, a serious error was found in the Bible, then He has Lied , and He has Failed; Our God would be a product of Jewish Imagination, and Joseph Smith made things up because he based his God from the Old and New Testament. It would have been far better for him to use a made-up god than to use the God of the Bible.

This is not the first time the Bible is deemed flawed. The Prophet Muhammad has said that the Bible is corrupted by Man through time, so that's why the Koran was given to Moses by Archangel Gabriel to restore the truth of Allah.

This is why the Bible can say that no man can see God's face, while also stating several had seen his face and lived. I agree with you that this means God's glory. Still, that is not evident in the scripture, which is why I continually have discussions with people online on why God's face CAN be seen (just not his full glory).

Well the answer is that No One saw God's face at all. God can and has come in a form of a man as He did, when He appeared to Abraham as three men (Gen 18:1-3), when He wrestled against Jacob (Ibid 32:24-30), when the Angel appeared to Samson's parents, etc (Judges 13:16, 22-23). Moses Saw God, and He indeed spoke to God face to face but when it comes to Moses' plea to see God's actual face:

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. - Exodus 33:18-20

We need continuing revelation and prophets today to clarify the things that are not as clear as you think they are. For there are entire churches that would disagree with some of your viewpoints (such as on seeing God's face).

We may, and I'd love to have bona fide prophets today because it would be nice to have answers for everything, but that doesn't change the fact that God has made clear statements concerning His Words.

1. http://www.alamut.com/subj/ideologies/alamut/etymolAss.htmlome

2.“Philistine” by Ramon Bennett Ch 2, p. 21

3."164 Jihad Verses in the Koran -- Passages in the Quran about Islamic Holy War" compiled by Yoel Natan

4. "Philistine" by Ramon Bennett Ch 3, p. 51

[Guest Believer_1829]

Galatians-

What do you make of Jeremiah 8:8?

8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,

for we have the law of the LORD,"

when actually the lying pen of the scribes

has handled it falsely? (NIV)

8(A) "How can you say, 'We are wise,

and the law of the LORD is with us'?

But behold, the lying pen of the scribes

has made it into a lie. (ESV)

[Galatians220]

Galatians-

What do you make of Jeremiah 8:8?

I say that they are saying the same thing. The thing is that both quotations are from different versions of the Bible; one is a Semi-paraphrase bible which is the New International Version and the the other is the Literal version of the Bible which is the English Standard version.

The Literal Versions reads like this:

How do ye say, We [are] wise, and the law of the LORD [is] with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he [it]; the pen of the scribes [is] in vain. - KJV

"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood. - NKJV

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. - RSV

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely. - ASV (Jehovah is in place of the Tetragrammiton LORD)

"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie. - NASB

So on and so forth. The reason for so many Bible Versions is an attempt to make the Bible more understandable to the contemporary English reader so there's a business of making. A lot of the versions that were after the KJV and the NKJV is based on the oldest text found with is the Alexandrian Text found in Egypt. The KJV in the meanwhile is based on the Textus Receptus gathered around Europe given to the King of England.

The Literal versions where made also to be more accurate and faithful to the greek text. Does that mean that the KJV is less accurate? Only to a degree because in examining each one, all of them means the same thing but the words used.

Various Bible readings of Jeremiah 8:8

Blue Letter Bible - The Major Prophet Jeremiah 8 (KJV - King James Version)

Edited August 4, 2009 by Galatians220

[Guest Believer_1829]

I say that they are saying the same thing. The thing is that both quotations are from different versions of the Bible; one is a Semi-paraphrase bible which is the New International Version and the the other is the Literal version of the Bible which is the English Standard version.

The Literal Versions reads like this:

How do ye say, We [are] wise, and the law of the LORD [is] with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he [it]; the pen of the scribes [is] in vain. - KJV

"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood. - NKJV

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. - RSV

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely. - ASV (Jehovah is in place of the Tetragrammiton LORD)

"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie. - NASB

So on and so forth. The reason for so many Bible Versions is an attempt to make the Bible more understandable to the contemporary English reader so there's a business of making. A lot of the versions that were after the KJV and the NKJV is based on the oldest text found with is the Alexandrian Text found in Egypt. The KJV in the meanwhile is based on the Textus Receptus gathered around Europe given to the King of England.

The Literal versions where made also to be more accurate and faithful to the greek text. Does that mean that the KJV is less accurate? Only to a degree because in examining each one, all of them means the same thing but the words used.

Various Bible readings of Jeremiah 8:8

Blue Letter Bible - The Major Prophet Jeremiah 8 (KJV - King James Version)

You apparently have missed the point of my question. I used two different versions just so it is clear they say the same thing....

What I am interested in is your take on the meaning of the verse in question in light of your statements regarding the inerrant accuracy of the Bible. Apparently, Jeremiah felt the scribes had been engaged in some pretty big shenanigans regarding the ancient writings.

[Galatians220]

You apparently have missed the point of my question. I used two different versions just so it is clear they say the same thing....

What I am interested in is your take on the meaning of the verse in question in light of your statements regarding the inerrant accuracy of the Bible. Apparently, Jeremiah felt the scribes had been engaged in some pretty big shenanigans regarding the ancient writings.

Your point has not been missed actually; I had a sneaking suspicion that you were using the two versions to give evidence of an imperfection of scripture so I've covered all grounds so to speak, just in case.

Now tell me, how has the to different versions showed that the Bible is, "Imperfect?"

[Guest Believer_1829]

Your point has not been missed actually; I had a sneaking suspicion that you were using the two versions to give evidence of an imperfection of scripture so I've covered all grounds so to speak, just in case.

Now tell me, how has the to different versions showed that the Bible is, "Imperfect?"

Sir, your question shows that you are not getting my point (even though I though I had explained myself fairly well)...

My question has nothing to do with the difference between the NIV and the ESV. In fact I think using the different versions to try to prove the "as translated correctly" idea makes no sense. My inquiry really does have to do with the actual text of the verse and what Jeremiah is saying in the verse. Are we clear now? Good.

[Galatians220]

Sir, your question shows that you are not getting my point (even though I though I had explained myself fairly well)...

My question has nothing to do with the difference between the NIV and the ESV. In fact I think using the different versions to try to prove the "as translated correctly" idea makes no sense. My inquiry really does have to do with the actual text of the verse and what Jeremiah is saying in the verse. Are we clear now? Good.

I;ve just taken a closer look at your point earlier and have now understood them - sorry about that. Now here's what I think of them:

5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.

6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.

7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.

8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

It is the rejection of the Lords words by the hearers so in vain, the scribles wrote. The People heed not the Word of God

Edited August 5, 2009 by Galatians220

[Guest Believer_1829]

I'm afraid I still don't understand, what's the problem with those verses?

I don't really understand where you're driving at?

Jeremiah, in that verse, states that the scribes (those tasked with transcribing the records) changed things in the texts. You claim the Lord has preserved the ancient records almost perfectly intact as originally written. Whom should I believe, Jeremiah or you? Who's to say later scribes after Jeremiah did not engage in the same deceit to propagate their personal agendas or beliefs?

[Galatians220]

Jeremiah, in that verse, states that the scribes (those tasked with transcribing the records) changed things in the texts. You claim the Lord has preserved the ancient records almost perfectly intact as originally written. Whom should I believe, Jeremiah or you? Who's to say later scribes after Jeremiah did not engage in the same deceit to propagate their personal agendas or beliefs?

I'm going to research that; I'll be right back with you :)

[Guest Believer_1829]

I'm going to research that; I'll be right back with you :)

No problem... take all the time you need.

[Galatians220]

No problem... take all the time you need.

Thanks :)

[EruditioSalvatus]

So... if the "lord has preserved the ancient records almost perfectly intact as originally written" how does that explain the really wacky stuff that's in the bible? Not 'misinterpreted' or 'mistranslated' things but stuff like contradictory science, mysterious populace gestation, and so forth?

[Guest Believer_1829]

So... if the "lord has preserved the ancient records almost perfectly intact as originally written" how does that explain the really wacky stuff that's in the bible? Not 'misinterpreted' or 'mistranslated' things but stuff like contradictory science, mysterious populace gestation, and so forth?

Wait your turn. Let him answer my question first