Non uniform belief? Why?

[Guest Believer_1829]

There was no question in your post. When you make statements, not questions, about LDS doctrine not agreeing with the Book of Mormon, not only does it look like you are pointing out flaws, but doing so without ever even studying the Book of Mormon. I was never angry, just frustrated.

I make every attempt to try to be fair and to try to read people's posts with as much understanding as possible. You can go back over a year and check for yourself. I do apologize, I did not get a question or even curiosity from your post. Nor have I had the impression of genuine curiosity from many of your posts.

I will try harder.

You have to admit, the scripture she quoted leaves open an interpretation quite different from the LDS teaching on the Godhead. That was her point.

Latte is very pleasant and has shown respect throughout all of her posts, which is more then I can say for the way some LDS people here treat even one another.

[Kawazu]

I think you will find we share the same core beliefs.

I have found people of other Christian religions don't even share the same core beliefs.

I know Catholics who believe very differently in the Trinity. You will find all LDS believe The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are separate personages.

I know Baptists who believe very differently in salvation.

Anyway, I'm getting away from what I wanted to say. We do have different beliefs about many things that non-members like to discuss. The reason is that those are usually the controversial topics. We interpret scripture a bit differently than each other, that's a fact. But, we all know the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. We are encouraged to read and seek answers on our own. That will lead people down different learning paths. But, eventually, we meet somewhere down the road.

The quoted answer is probably better than the average response you will receive regarding this topic.

[Guest Believer_1829]

All you need to know that it's true is that the Book of Mormon is inspired scripture.

That only gets you part of the way.

A witness of the Book of Mormon is exactly that... a witness of the Book of Mormon, nothing more.

[Lstinthwrld]

It is commonly taught in our Church, even to all investigators, that anyone can know for themselves if the Book of Mormon is true. The invitation is simple. Read it with a genuine curiosity to know if it's true. Pray about it sincerely. We believe the truth of the Book of Mormon will be made known to all honest seekers by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You will not be baptized into the LDS Church if you do not believe the Book of Mormon is true. The rest of the truths hinge on that fact, even that Joseph Smith was a prophet.

There are some pretty basic beliefs we all share by virtue of what we believe.

1) The Book of Mormon is true.

that means Joseph Smith was a prophet.

that means The Father and The Son appeared to him.

that means they are separate beings.

that means...

See how it goes? All you need to know that it's true is that the Book of Mormon is inspired scripture.

But how do you know it is true when laymen contradict prophets and even prophets contradict prophets?

[bytor2112]

But how do you know it is true when laymen contradict prophets and even prophets contradict prophets?

Do you actually read his comments??? Did you miss the part about the Holy Spirit or my post about it. I earlier suggested that you return to CARM and this is why.

I meet with missionaries regularly, my friends dad is a GA...blah, blah, blah.

I don't buy it.

[Lstinthwrld]

You have to admit, the scripture she quoted leaves open an interpretation quite different from the LDS teaching on the Godhead. That was her point.

Latte is very pleasant and has shown respect throughout all of her posts, which is more then I can say for the way some LDS people here treat even one another.

And also the point of this thread. Thank you lattelady.

[Justice]

You probably shouldn't suggest that I've never studied the Book of Mormon, since you and I are strangers to one another. I didn't ask a question in my post, rather I made a comment that the Book of Mormon seemed to argue the statement you made. I'm sorry you're uncomfortable with other's challenges. I wasn't being rude or offensive. My posts typically demonstrate a genuine confusion that I have with the teachings and contradictions I find with the teachings at times.

Can you honestly say your post was worded in such a way I should have clearly known your intent? There's absolutely no way I could have misunderstood your non-question statement? Plus, as you just pointed out, we really don't know each other--that goes 2 ways.

If you believe you were crystal clear, then I take full blame and offer my apology.

It appeared obvious at the time that you had not studied the Book of Mormon since you questioned one of it's foundational principles. EVERY LDS knows what that scripture means. Anyone who studies it with any kind of honest desire to know will ASK what it means if they do not understand. It did not appear you were asking. Again, I apologize for jumping to a conclusion based on your misunderstanding.

I will remove my posts if that will help resolve the issue... together with my apology for misunderstanding.

[Lstinthwrld]

Do you actually read his comments??? Did you miss the part about the Holy Spirit or my post about it. I earlier suggested that you return to CARM and this is why.

I meet with missionaries regularly, my friends dad is a GA...blah, blah, blah.

I don't buy it.

Then get off the thread and let interested parties discuss it with an open mind.

[bytor2112]

Then get off the thread and let interested parties discuss it with an open mind.

Interested parties? Your only interest seems to be to ignore answers and post more questions without exploring the merits of the answers given.

[Justice]

But how do you know it is true when laymen contradict prophets and even prophets contradict prophets?

Perhaps if you show me some of the contradictions you're speaking about I can answer.

[Lstinthwrld]

Do you actually read his comments??? Did you miss the part about the Holy Spirit or my post about it. I earlier suggested that you return to CARM and this is why.

I meet with missionaries regularly, my friends dad is a GA...blah, blah, blah.

I don't buy it.

Lets pretend that there are some of us out there that consider a witness of the holy ghost to be esoteric hocus pocus. Not saying it is not true for you but I just don't buy it. Therefore I do not consider it proof of anything.

I am not even christian so how do I fit in with carm? What is your problem with me dude?

[Lstinthwrld]

Perhaps if you show me some of the contradictions you're speaking about I can answer.

I gave a few examples on page 2. But the question isn't specific. Just why all the differences in the beliefs. Isn't the reason for an organized faith unity of belief?

[bytor2112]

Lets pretend that there are some of us out there that consider a witness of the holy ghost to be esoteric hocus pocus. Not saying it is not true for you but I just don't buy it. Therefore I do not consider it proof of anything.

I am not even christian so how do I fit in with carm? What is your problem with me dude?

Well dude, I stated the problem I have with you. So, maybe your not from CARM....but honestly you ask questions and then ignore the answers. You have not experienced the Holy Spirit.......but without it, you probably will never truly understand. Hocus pocus to you.....but it is the way the Lord teaches, leads and guides HIS children to truth.

[Guest Believer_1829]

It appeared obvious at the time that you had not studied the Book of Mormon since you questioned one of it's foundational principles. .

Whoa, slow down. The nature of the Godhead is NOT a "core principle" of the Book of Mormon and I dare-say a novice studying it without knowledge of LDS teachings on the subject would conclude it teaches either "Oneness" or "Trinitarian" ideas. (Especially in it's First Edition form)

I HAVE studied it, I have read about 9 times in 2 languages. It is my most cherished possession.

[Lstinthwrld]

Well dude, I stated the problem I have with you. So, maybe your not from CARM....but honestly you ask questions and then ignore the answers. You have not experienced the Holy Spirit.......but without it, you probably will never truly understand. Hocus pocus to you.....but it is the way the Lord teaches, leads and guides HIS children to truth.

So your problem with me is the fact that I am not mormon and don't believe what you do. So I shouldn't try to ask questions and understand?

And by the way shoot me a pm and you can check the missionaries I meet with and I will give you the name of my friends father. You know the GA.

[Justice]

Lets pretend that there are some of us out there that consider a witness of the holy ghost to be esoteric hocus pocus.

Well, then that's like trying to explain what a strawberry tastes like to someone who has never had one. Regardless of your belief, it is the answer. There are no physical proofs I can offer. But, there are many, many evidences. Perhaps we need an in depth discussion on how the Holy Ghost works.

[Justice]

Whoa, slow down. The nature of the Godhead is NOT a "core principle" of the Book of Mormon and I dare-say a novice studying it without knowledge of LDS teachings on the subject would conclude it teaches either "Oneness" or "Trinitarian" ideas. (Especially in it's First Edition form)

I HAVE studied it, I have read about 9 times in 2 languages. It is my most cherished possession.

To one who denies Joseph Smith's first vision or his teachings, yeah the words might look confusing.

I know Joseph Smith saw 2 personages with glorified, resurrected bodies when they appeared to Him. I use that knowledge to understand the Book of Mormon AND Bible.

Again, to a novice, yes it would appear that way. That was why I made my supposition that she hadn't studied it much.

What did I do to you, Believer?

[Maxel]

Hotbeds of contention...

Probably the reason there are so many differing opinions about LDS doctrine concerning certain matters is that there's no authoritative, prophetic statement concerning them. The Articles of Faith are the closest thing we have to a concise statement of doctrine on key points. The rest has to be gleaned from the rest of the scriptures, teachings of the prophets, revelation from the Holy Ghost, and more. Even the doctrine of deification (becoming gods) is barely touched in LDS canon- and that's a doctrine widely accepted as canonically proven by the general LDS populace.

Also, I have to agree with the others who are saying that, when it comes to the core doctrines, Mormons are remarkably homogenized in their personal beliefs.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Maxel
Clarification

[bytor2112]

So your problem with me is the fact that I am not mormon and don't believe what you do. So I shouldn't try to ask questions and understand?

And by the way shoot me a pm and you can check the missionaries I meet with and I will give you the name of my friends father. You know the GA.

I have no problem with your beliefs.....ask all the questions you like. But, the answer, the one given by Justice and also by me, explains much of the confusion. The real answer to your question is....the Holy Spirit.

If you meet with missionaries, I am certain they tell you pretty much the same thing Justice did.

[Lstinthwrld]

Well, then that's like trying to explain what a strawberry tastes like to someone who has never had one. Regardless of your belief, it is the answer. There are no physical proofs I can offer. But, there are many, many evidences. Perhaps we need an in depth discussion on how the Holy Ghost works.

I agree with you 100% and this is one of the conundrums for me. But it doesn't make me want to stop learning about it. It just makes it more frustrating for both me and usually everyone I talk to about it. Sorry.

[Lstinthwrld]

Hotbeds of contention...

Probably the reason there are so many differing opinions about LDS doctrine concerning certain matters is that there's no authoritative, prophetic statement concerning it. The Articles of Faith are the closest thing we have to a concise statement of doctrine on key points. The rest has to be gleaned from the rest of the scriptures, teachings of the prophets, revelation from the Holy Ghost, and more.

Also, I have to agree with the others who are saying that, when it comes to the core doctrines, Mormons are remarkably homogenized in their personal beliefs. Even the doctrine of deification (becoming gods) is barely touched in LDS canon- and that's a doctrine widely accepted as canonically proven by the general LDS populace.

Thank you good post.

[Kawazu]

But how do you know it is true when laymen contradict prophets and even prophets contradict prophets?

But how do you know it is true when laymen contradict prophets and even prophets contradict prophets?

No Prophet contradicts the central message of the Gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints [easily outlined here, (PDF)--excerpted from Mormonism for Dummies by Jana Riess and Christopher Kimball Bigelow].

In areas of doctrinal confusion, we attempt to align the Standard Works in order to find what is truthful--using the words of our modern prophets as a strong guide.

I hope my comments have offered some clarification. Have a wonderful day.

Cheers,

Kawazu

[pam]

2 Nephi 26:12

Moroni wrote on the title page of the Book of Mormon that one of the major reasons the Book of Mormon had been preserved was for the purpose of the “convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.” Jesus is, of course, the Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One. As to this verity there is wholesale rejection by unconverted Jews but little dispute among the believing element in modern Christendom.

But Jesus Christ is also the Eternal God. He is Jehovah. He is the Holy One of Israel. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the same eternal being who gave the Law of Moses on Sinai. And he is a separate and distinct being from that of his eternal parent, the Almighty Elohim. As to these latter verities there is almost universal ignorance in the Christian world and, once again, complete rejection by Jews who have not come to accept Jesus as the Christ. The Book of Mormon is thus a Sacred volume which manifests the identity of the premortal Jehovah, the Shepherd of Israel. It establishes beyond question that a God became a man, that he condescended to leave his throne divine to take upon him a tabernacle of clay, and that he who was and is the Lord Omnipotent came to earth to suffer and bleed and die to atone for the spiritual and physical death of the human family.

This Jesus Christ, this Eternal God, is the same yesterday, today, and forever in the sense that he always manifests himself unto those who call on his name in faith and endure in righteousness. The Holy Ghost is the “gift of God unto all those who diligently seek [Christ], as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men. For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.” (1 Nephi 10:17-18.)

Millet & McConkie, BOM Commentary, Vol 1, p. 304-305

Christ-Messiah is God!

Such is the plain and pure pronouncement of all the prophets of all the ages. In our desire to avoid the false and absurd conclusions contained in the creeds of Christendom, we are wont to shy away from this pure and unadorned verity; we go to great lengths to use language that shows there is both a Father and a Son, that they are separate Persons and are not somehow mystically intertwined as an essence of spirit that is everywhere present. Such an approach is perhaps essential in reasoning with the Gentiles of sectarianism; it helps to overthrow the fallacies formulated in their creeds.

But having so done, if we are to envision our Lord’s true status and glory, we must come back to the pronouncement of pronouncements, the doctrine of doctrines, the message of messages, which is that Christ is God. And if it were not so, he could not save us.

Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, p. 98

[Guest Believer_1829]

To one who denies Joseph Smith's first vision or his teachings, yeah the words might look confusing.

I know Joseph Smith saw 2 personages with glorified, resurrected bodies when they appeared to Him. I use that knowledge to understand the Book of Mormon AND Bible.

Again, to a novice, yes it would appear that way. That was why I made my supposition that she hadn't studied it much.

What did I do to you, Believer?

You made the supposition she hadn't studied it much based on your idea that those who don't reach your same conclusion concerning the internal teachings of the Book itself have not studied it, when your belief in the Godhead is based on modern-day teachings of those interpreting the passages, not anything the Book clearly indicates on it own.

You did nothing to me, I just feel you are being unfair to Latte. It's OK to answer someone's question/post without questioning their motive or level of education on a subject.

[Lstinthwrld]

Well, then that's like trying to explain what a strawberry tastes like to someone who has never had one. Regardless of your belief, it is the answer. There are no physical proofs I can offer. But, there are many, many evidences. Perhaps we need an in depth discussion on how the Holy Ghost works.

If you have the time I really would like to hear what you have to say on this. Thank you:)