desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Actually, I am, by the people I choose to vote for. That is how a representative democracy works.XD I am talking about things like Prop 8. Homosexuals exist and there are couples who love eachother and want rights. That needs to be accepted. Whether they have support or not, they should be atleast allotted the choice to choose.Did you know abortions happened even when they were illegal? Did you know women died getting these abortions? Don't you think it should be legal just for the safety of the people who are going to do it anyway? Why do they have to die when it can be done safely in hospitals? (another topic for another time I guess)Just a little personal story about the difference between acceptance and support.I was applying to college with my dads help. He paid 350 that was necessary to secure my place, and he took me to the college regularly when I needed to pick something up or get something. I was also doing the OSAP thing (which is a student loan). I can not attend without OSAP because I can't afford to pay for it all. Anyway, my dad said that he would help me get ANYTHING I needed to get to school. This was not true however. My dad doesn't want to support me and Cael living together, so when it came to proving me and Cael's Common Law relationship my dad refused. He said he doesn't want to support the relationship. I live with Cael regardless if he supports it or not. We are already Common Law so it isn't like he is preventing anything but my being able to attend college. Unfortunately the fall semester is going to start on the 8th without me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Did you know abortions happened even when they were illegal? Did you know women died getting these abortions? Don't you think it should be legal just for the safety of the people who are going to do it anyway? Why do they have to die when it can be done safely in hospitals? (another topic for another time I guess)Did you know that murder happens even when it's illegal? Did you know people sometimes died trying to kill their victims? Don't you think it should be legal just for the safety of the people who are going to do it anyway? Why do those poor murderers have to die when they can murder people in the safety of broad daylight?(I know there's a difference between murder and abortion- but arguing that something should be made legal to make those participating in illegal actions safer is a ludicrous argument that stems from the underlying belief that the law is in the wrong, not the people committing the act. The same argument can be used- with equally bad results- for the legalization of illegal drugs as well.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Did you know that murder happens even when it's illegal? Did you know people sometimes died trying to kill their victims? Don't you think it should be legal just for the safety of the people who are going to do it anyway? Why do those poor murderers have to die when they can murder people in the safety of broad daylight?How is this the same thing? If a father rapes his daughter, so you think the daughter wants to carry that around for nine months? What it is an abusive situation and the wife/gf is trying to leave, but then finds out she is pregnant. What if the mother is a crack head and she KNOWS she is not going to stop doing crack anytime soon and would rather get an abortion? That baby will die anyway you know.(I know there's a difference between murder and abortion- but arguing that something should be made legal to make those participating in illegal actions safer is a ludicrous argument that stems from the underlying belief that the law is in the wrong, not the people committing the act. The same argument can be used- with equally bad results- for the legalization of illegal drugs as well.)People are going to get an abortion anyway, and those people are going to probably die. I know I just repeated myself, but I am not sure you quite got it the first time. If you don't believe in abortion... don't get one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Believer_1829 Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 XD I am talking about things like Prop 8. Homosexuals exist and there are couples who love eachother and want rights. That needs to be accepted. Whether they have support or not, they should be atleast allotted the choice to choose.Did you know abortions happened even when they were illegal? Did you know women died getting these abortions? Don't you think it should be legal just for the safety of the people who are going to do it anyway? Why do they have to die when it can be done safely in hospitals? (another topic for another time I guess)Just a little personal story about the difference between acceptance and support.I was applying to college with my dads help. He paid 350 that was necessary to secure my place, and he took me to the college regularly when I needed to pick something up or get something. I was also doing the OSAP thing (which is a student loan). I can not attend without OSAP because I can't afford to pay for it all. Anyway, my dad said that he would help me get ANYTHING I needed to get to school. This was not true however. My dad doesn't want to support me and Cael living together, so when it came to proving me and Cael's Common Law relationship my dad refused. He said he doesn't want to support the relationship. I live with Cael regardless if he supports it or not. We are already Common Law so it isn't like he is preventing anything but my being able to attend college. Unfortunately the fall semester is going to start on the 8th without me...I read it 3 times and I don't understand the point of your story about your Dad...I know that the story of women dying by the thousands as a result of back alley abortions is a baseless argument by pro-abortion people to gain some type of emotional point.Like I said I support Gatorman's view... Government should get out of marriage, change everyone to a civil contract (the terms of which they can negotiate at the time of signing), and let each church decide what is a marriage within their particular denomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 I read it 3 times and I don't understand the point of your story about your Dad...I am going to be with Cael anyway. I love him and that is just the way life is. Same with homosexual couples, only legally if one is the the hospital, the other can't visit. There are life insurance issues and custody issues that can't be resolved which hurt any kids involved in the relationship. You can accept that they are out there and want rights, and in turn let them have it... or you can "not support" what is already happening and deny them any further rights in turn hurting any children that happen to be in that family.I know that the story of women dying by the thousands as a result of back alley abortions is a baseless argument by pro-abortion people to gain some type of emotional point.Like I said I support Gatorman's view... Government should get out of marriage, change everyone to a civil contract (the terms of which they can negotiate at the time of signing), and let each church decide what is a marriage within their particular denomination.Lol. So the only people who can show their love by getting married are those who have a religion? The rest of us can pretend to be getting married with a ceremony but we are only signing a contract? I really think if you were homosexual or even simply out of religion you would see the problems with that. I am all for separating religion from state, but marriage has already been separated from religion. Why would we suddenly change what was done and give it back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Believer_1829 Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 I am going to be with Cael anyway. I love him and that is just the way life is. Same with homosexual couples, only legally if one is the the hospital, the other can't visit. There are life insurance issues and custody issues that can't be resolved which hurt any kids involved in the relationship. You can accept that they are out there and want rights, and in turn let them have it... or you can "not support" what is already happening and deny them any further rights in turn hurting any children that happen to be in that family.Lol. So the only people who can show their love by getting married are those who have a religion? The rest of us can pretend to be getting married with a ceremony but we are only signing a contract? I really think if you were homosexual or even simply out of religion you would see the problems with that. I am all for separating religion from state, but marriage has already been separated from religion. Why would we suddenly change what was done and give it back?You need to read my posts, not skim them...Like I said I support Gatorman's view... Government should get out of marriage, change everyone to a civil contract (the terms of which they can negotiate at the time of signing), and let each church decide what is a marriage within their particular denomination.In this manner you can have a big marriage ceremony however the heck you want it (you can have drunk Uncle Bob pronounce you man/wife, wife/wife, husband/husband, etc...), but it has nothing to do with the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 You need to read my posts, not skim them...I did but I'll do it again... In this manner you can have a big marriage ceremony however the heck you want it (you can have drunk Uncle Bob pronounce you man/wife, wife/wife, husband/husband, etc...), but it has nothing to do with the government.Exactly! It is just some party because now you have taken out a contract together... HazzahYou think marriage you think love (not religion strangely enough).You think Civil Contract you think obligation. In fact love doesn't cross my mind.I am sorry but we already have the word marriage and you can't make it just a religious institution anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 You need to read my posts, not skim them... I read yours (it isn't long) twice now and I response still stands. If you don't understand it say so. Don't just accuse me of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Believer_1829 Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 We will agree to disagree.... because I like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 We will agree to disagree.... because I like you.Lol. Thanx. I think that is the best resolution the two of us can come to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Did you know abortions happened even when they were illegal? Did you know women died getting these abortions? Don't you think it should be legal just for the safety of the people who are going to do it anyway? Why do they have to die when it can be done safely in hospitals?More than forty million babies have been slaughtered since Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. The abortion rate today is astronomically higher than in 1972. How many of those murdered babies would have been allowed to live if not for Roe v. Wade? Do you think that number would be greater than or less than the number of women that would have died engaging in the illegal murder of their babies?Yes, I agree, much greater. The net loss of life would be much less with abortion illegal in most instances. So your appeal to safety is specious, and your appeal to the value of life ("Why do they have to die...?") absurd, given the number of unborn babies murdered in the interim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 More than forty million babies have been slaughtered since Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. The abortion rate today is astronomically higher than in 1972. How many of those murdered babies would have been allowed to live if not for Roe v. Wade? Do you think that number would be greater than or less than the number of women that would have died engaging in the illegal murder of their babies?Yes, I agree, much greater. The net loss of life would be much less with abortion illegal in most instances. So your appeal to safety is specious, and your appeal to the value of life ("Why do they have to die...?") absurd, given the number of unborn babies murdered in the interim.So then crack babies should still happen? And the father impregnating his daughter? It is okay that the baby needs to live with any number of genetic and psychiatric problems, and the mother has to carry the product of her fathers rape around? That is all okay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 So then crack babies should still happen? And the father impregnating his daughter? It is okay that the baby needs to live with any number of genetic and psychiatric problems, and the mother has to carry the product of her fathers rape around? That is all okay?Not to butt in, but that's a strawman argument. If you can prove that the majority (and not the very tiny minority) of reasons for abortion, then I will agree, but very few abortions are due to such circumstances.And shouldn't this be a separate thread anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 So then crack babies should still happen?Nope. Of course that's an argument against crack, not for abortion. If you mean to ask, should crack babies not be aborted, I imagine he'll say yes, they shouldn't be aborted.And the father impregnating his daughter?Well, incest shouldn't be happening either, not only is that scenario illegal I'm fairly sure Vort would agree with you its immoral. As far as aborting the possibly results of said scenario, I'm once again going out on a limb but I imagine Vort's ideas on that are similar to this LDS.org - Topic Definition - Abortion. Of course in my experience (and I'm probably not alone) most people in favor of legal abortion are not talking about it being limited to: when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. If you are okay with it limited in that context you'll probably find more support on this forum for your position. I personally have no problem with a women being able to obtain a legal abortion in the above circumstances.It is okay that the baby needs to live with any number of genetic and psychiatric problems,Once again I imagine Vort will agree with me that babies with genetic and psychiatric problems do not deserve being killed, so I think its perfectly acceptable that such children are allowed to live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Not to butt in, but that's a strawman argument. If you can prove that the majority (and not the very tiny minority) of reasons for abortion, then I will agree, but very few abortions are due to such circumstances.And shouldn't this be a separate thread anyway?I mentioned abortion once and everyone ignored what I said about homosexuality in that comment and kind of honed in on the abortion part.I am not saying the majority are and I disagree with abortion just because you don't want the baby... but that is no reason why should it be illegal in all cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 So then crack babies should still happen? And the father impregnating his daughter? It is okay that the baby needs to live with any number of genetic and psychiatric problems, and the mother has to carry the product of her fathers rape around? That is all okay?Dravin's answer speaks for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Not to butt in, but that's a strawman argument. If you can prove that the majority (and not the very tiny minority) of reasons for abortion, then I will agree, but very few abortions are due to such circumstances.And shouldn't this be a separate thread anyway?Probably, I think I'll do just that. Time to tidy up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Dravin's answer speaks for me.Deep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 New thread for a tangent that developed in http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/24840-lds-position-homosexuality-eternal-gender.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 I mentioned abortion once and everyone ignored what I said about homosexuality in that comment and kind of honed in on the abortion part.I am not saying the majority are and I disagree with abortion just because you don't want the baby... but that is no reason why should it be illegal in all cases.And that's essentially the church's position as well - except that it is currently legal for any reason, not just special circumstances.Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer. LDS.org - Topic Definition - Abortion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 W00t. Fancy. A new thread. n_n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 And that's essentially the church's position as well - except that it is currently legal for any reason, not just special circumstances.Lol. I was starting to think everyone had lost their mind. XD Thank you. I wasn't sure if it was or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 I'm pro-choice. Anti-abortion.. but yes, pro-choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Lol. I was starting to think everyone had lost their mind. XD Thank you. I wasn't sure if it was or not.Well, it is a frightening time. A medical procedure that destroys life has now become an elective procedure. That to many, including myself, is evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 I'm pro-choice. Anti-abortion.. but yes, pro-choice.I agree. I feel I am the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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