What Is More Important

[Traveler]

In a conversation with Ray I have wondered about an old question I once posted on this board. I have found my discussions with Ray delightful and interesting. I am particular pleased with his efforts to communicate good things in a clear manner.

There are a few concepts I would like to ask and open up to the forum. These have the form of which is more important. These conceptual questions are asked to probe individual concepts and how the individual envisions how their ideas will affect others according to immediate impact as well as eternal consequences. As you consider the questions, please respond with your best insight. The questions concern informing others about your belief in G-d, his covenants, commandments, work blessings and anything else:

Is it more important to understand correct doctrine concerning G-d or to demonstrate and be an example of some portions of G-d’s attributes?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s grace or to be gracious as he is?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s love or to love others as he does?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s kindness or to share G-dly kindness with others?

As best as can be understood:

Is it better to believe in G-d or is it better to be loyal (blindly loyal if you have to) to G-d?

Finely is there something about G-d (such as his power) that we should believe in but should not emulate him (do as he would do) in any such manner?

The Traveler

[Ray]

Thank you for your kind words, Traveler. A short expression of appreciation usually goes a long way. So again I say, Thank you.

Is it more important to understand correct doctrine concerning G-d or to demonstrate and be an example of some portions of G-d’s attributes?

I think we can only “demonstrate and be an example of some portion of God’s attributes” to the degree that we know God’s attributes and have a desire to worship God, and to worship God we need to correctly understand correct doctrine concerning God.

Btw, true worship is to love a person so much that [you] want to follow him, or be like him, and if [you] only talk about how wonderful God is, without trying to be like Him, [you] do not truly worship God.

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s grace or to be gracious as he is?

I think that to be as gracious is God is, we need to know how gracious God is; which hopefully inspires us to try to be as gracious as God is.

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s love or to love others as he does?

I think that to love others as much as God does, we need to know how much God loves others; which hopefully inspires us to love others as much as God loves others.

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s kindness or to share G-dly kindness with others?

I think that to be kind as God is kind with others, we need to know how kind God is; which hopefully inspires us to be as kind as God is.

As best as can be understood:

Is it better to believe in G-d or is it better to be loyal (blindly loyal if you have to) to G-d?

To believe in God we need to know who God is, otherwise we only believe in our own ideas about God, which may not apply to any true God.

Finally, is there something about G-d (such as his power) that we should believe in but should not emulate him (do as he would do) in any such manner?

I think we should be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, or at least try to be like Him, and to be as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, we need to know everything about God.

[ThunderFire]

I wonder if we can honestly say we believe these things to be true and/or the right way if we do not live it?

In Christ I Serve,

Thunderfire

[Ray]

Satan and his followers believe the truth, and they know it is true, yet they still do not worship God because they think they are better than He is.

Which reminds me of a sign I once saw in a store suggesting that we hire all teenagers while they still know everything.

[pushka]

Originally posted by Traveler@Aug 18 2005, 09:51 AM

Is it more important to understand correct doctrine concerning G-d or to demonstrate and be an example of some portions of G-d’s attributes?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s grace or to be gracious as he is?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s love or to love others as he does?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s kindness or to share G-dly kindness with others?

As best as can be understood:

Is it better to believe in G-d or is it better to be loyal (blindly loyal if you have to) to G-d?

Finely is there something about G-d (such as his power) that we should believe in but should not emulate him (do as he would do) in any such manner?

The Traveler

I don't go for Doctrine, however if god exists and has some good attributes, then I'm all for being an example of the good.

As for the rest: be gracious, love everyone as you love yourself, be kind to everyone, believe what you want to believe as long as it doesn't mean that you are going to hurt yourself or others, and again if god does exist...don't follow his example of killing tons of people whenever they don't worship you, or do as you say! LOL

It is very easy to gain knowledge, and an understanding of it...but if you don't use that knowledge in a positive way, then it is wasted on you...

[Ray]

pushka,

“God” is a word we humans use to refer to one or more of the most majestic beings we can imagine, and if you don’t believe God is in heaven, then you basically believe that one or more of the beings on Earth is God.

Or in other words, you do believe in a God, and if you believe “man” is the most majestic being in existence, then you believe “man” is God. Because no matter how you figure it, there is a being more majestic than all others.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Traveler@Aug 18 2005, 09:51 AM

Is it more important to understand correct doctrine concerning G-d or to demonstrate and be an example of some portions of G-d’s attributes?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s grace or to be gracious as he is?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s love or to love others as he does?

Is it more important to believe in G-d’s kindness or to share G-dly kindness with others?

As best as can be understood:

Is it better to believe in G-d or is it better to be loyal (blindly loyal if you have to) to G-d?

Finely is there something about G-d (such as his power) that we should believe in but should not emulate him (do as he would do) in any such manner?

The Traveler

It is my belief that they are (almost) equally important. If we have not been chosen and received the gift of the Holy Spirit witnessing to us of God's love and saving grace and giving us the faith to believe, then everything we do is suspect. Why are we doing it? What do we hope to gain from it? Working for our salvation only puts us back at square one because we can do nothing to effect our salvation.

So it is as important to believe in God's grace as it is to be gracious.

It is as important to believe in God's love as it is to love others, etc.

We should not emulate His jealousy, His sovereignty, His majesty, etc.

[Ray]

Working for our salvation only puts us back at square one because we can do nothing to effect our salvation.

Jenda,

Would you agree that we can do something to effect our salvation if God were to tell us we must do something to effect our salvation? Or in other words, isn’t God telling us that we can do something to effect our salvation by telling us that we must Repent from our sins and have Faith in Him? I think so, and if we do not do those things that God has told us to do (and it is within our power to choose not to follow that counsel), then in effect we have chosen not to accept salvation.

We should not emulate His jealousy, His sovereignty, His majesty, etc.

Nor would God emulate those qualities of God if He were found in form as a man, as evidenced by Jesus Christ Himself. But if God were to share His glory with us, by seating us on thrones on the right hand of Jesus Christ, then and only then would it be within our right to exercise the power of God, as far as He had shared His jealousy, sovereignty, and majesty with us.

Btw, I’m not attacking you personally, I’m simply sharing what I see to be some fallacies in your statement, which I hope will only effect a considerate response.

[Ray]

And btw, in case it got lost in translation, I think it's important to be gracious or loving or kind only if those are attributes we want, and no matter how gracious or loving or kind we think we are or may want to be, we need to know that God is perfect in all of those attributes and that He is happy if we are sincerely striving to emulate Him.

[pushka]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 18 2005, 03:28 PM

pushka,

“God” is a word we humans use to refer to one or more of the most majestic beings we can imagine, and if you don’t believe God is in heaven, then you basically believe that one or more of the beings on Earth is God.

Or in other words, you do believe in a God, and if you believe “man” is the most majestic being in existence, then you believe “man” is God. Because no matter how you figure it, there is a being more majestic than all others.

I believe that all things are equal...humans and animals and the earth...they all deserve the same kind of respect and care from each other.

I do not believe in any god or higher being.

Whenever I do good, I do not do it because I am hoping to gain blessings, or go to heaven, In fact I don't do it for any special reason at all...I just prefer to do good than to do that which I consider evil...if I'm awarded by anybody's praise or money or anything else for anything I do, then this is a bonus...

Hope that makes it clear where I stand.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 18 2005, 04:07 PM

Working for our salvation only puts us back at square one because we can do nothing to effect our salvation.

Jenda,

Would you agree that we can do something to effect our salvation if God were to tell us we must do something to effect our salvation? Or in other words, isn’t God telling us that we can do something to effect our salvation by telling us that we must Repent from our sins and have Faith in Him? I think so, and if we do not do those things that God has told us to do (and it is within our power to choose not to follow that counsel), then in effect we have chosen not to accept salvation.

We should not emulate His jealousy, His sovereignty, His majesty, etc.

Nor would God emulate those qualities of God if He were found in form as a man, as evidenced by Jesus Christ Himself. But if God were to share His glory with us, by seating us on thrones on the right hand of Jesus Christ, then and only then would it be within our right to exercise the power of God, as far as He had shared His jealousy, sovereignty, and majesty with us.

Btw, I’m not attacking you personally, I’m simply sharing what I see to be some fallacies in your statement, which I hope will only effect a considerate response.

Ray, those are the fruits of a regenerated heart. God commands us to do things, not because it will affect our salvation but because those attributes demonstrate the fact that God has taken up residence in us.

If we have been regenerated, we will repent from our sins because we can't bear to be separated from God. That's why He calls us to repent. And repentence is for our benefit, to strengthen our relationship with God, not so that God forgives us. We are forgiven for all our sins (past, present and future) when we are regenerated.

Once we are regenerated, God promises us that we will always remain His. We cannot choose anything in this matter. If God has chosen us, and He is sovereign, how can we be powerful enough to work against His will?

[Ray]

Jenda,

Interesting theory, but I testify that we are regenerated only as we Repent and have Faith in Jesus Christ, and more specifically, only to the degree that we Repent and have Faith in Jesus Christ. And my testimony is in agreement with the testimonies of other prophets of God.

And btw, we can choose whoever we want as our Lord, before and after our regeneration, and if after following Jesus for a while we then decide we would rather follow Satan, Jesus would then no longer be our Lord and we will only receive the wages of our own sin.

Our Father in heaven will not force us to honor Jesus Christ as our Lord, but He also will not reward us for honoring Satan as our Lord… and our Father in heaven will only honor us to the degree that we honor Jesus Christ as our Lord.

Pushka,

I wasn’t talking about how we should treat other living beings. I was talking about how one type of being is more majestic than another, and surely you don’t believe an amoeba or a virus is as majestic or as high a form of life as a porpoise or a monkey or a man. Or do you, really?

And btw, if you only do what you think you should do because you think you know better than anybody else about what you should do, regardless of what anybody else thinks, then you basically consider yourself to be God because you think you know more about what you should think or do than anybody else.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 19 2005, 09:12 AM

Jenda,

Interesting theory, but I testify that we are regenerated only as we Repent and have Faith in Jesus Christ, and more specifically, only to the degree that we Repent and have Faith in Jesus Christ. And my testimony is in agreement with the testimonies of other prophets of God.

And btw, we can choose whoever we want as our Lord, before and after our regeneration, and if after following Jesus for a while we then decide we would rather follow Satan, Jesus would then no longer be our Lord and we will only receive the wages of our own sin.

Our Father in heaven will not force us to honor Jesus Christ as our Lord, but He also will not reward us for honoring Satan as our Lord… and our Father in heaven will only honor us to the degree that we honor Jesus Christ as our Lord.

Ray, here are some scriptures that show that the Father choses us, and that He protects those whom He chooses so that they remain His.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

Ephesians 1:1-2,13

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[sealing with the Holy Spirit of promise is the guarantee of the security of salvation]

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[Ray]

Jenda,

I can put each one of those scriptures in context so that they agree with my thinking, and you have undoubtedly done the same, so how do you suppose either one of us is going to know whether or not our understanding is correct?

And btw, if I thought it would help to quote some other scriptures, I would do that.

So I’ll leave you with my thoughts, including one more to suggest that even if Jesus Christ saves everybody who accepts Him as our Savior, that doesn’t mean everybody will receive the same rewards. And lest you think that Jesus Christ will save absolutely everybody, whether they accept Jesus Christ or not, I recommend that you ponder the scriptures which show that there will be some who Jesus will be ashamed to own, and those are the people who will suffer the most excruciating torment.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 19 2005, 11:09 AM

Jenda,

I can put each one of those scriptures in context so that they agree with my thinking, and you have undoubtedly done the same, so how do you suppose either one of us is going to know whether or not our understanding is correct?

And btw, if I thought it would help to quote some other scriptures, I would do that.

So I’ll leave you with my thoughts, including one more to suggest that even if Jesus Christ saves everybody who accepts Him as our Savior, that doesn’t mean everybody will receive the same rewards. And lest you think that Jesus Christ will save absolutely everybody, whether they accept Jesus Christ or not, I recommend that you ponder the scriptures which show that there will be some who Jesus will be ashamed to own, and those are the people who will suffer the most excruciating torment.

I agree that we each often define words to suit our purpose and put our own interpretation to a passage of scripture to attain the theology we want, however if we look at those words in the context they were given with the definitions they were meant to have, often there can't be more than one interpretation.

And I agree wholeheartedly that not everyone will be saved. In fact, I offer just the opposite. That there are those God has chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved. And those chosen (and only those chosen) will hear His voice and be saved. And because they have been chosen by God, they cannot fall away.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda@ Aug 19 2005, 12:28 PM

I agree that we each often define words to suit our purpose and put our own interpretation to a passage of scripture to attain the theology we want, however if we look at those words in the context they were given with the definitions they were meant to have, often there can't be more than one interpretation.

Not that I expect to be able to convince you, but here is how I understand these scriptures:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

This scripture shows that Jesus' apostles did not choose Him [to go and bring forth fruit], but Jesus had chosen them, and ordained them, [to go and bring forth fruit], and their "fruit" should remain, as long as whatever they asked for from our Father in heaven was in the name or by the authority of Jesus Christ, because by that authority it may be given to them.

And btw, the definition of “fruit” in this instance would be anything the apostles brought forth in the name [or by the authority] of Jesus Christ which would remain because our Father in heaven accepted those things in the name [or by the authority] of Jesus Christ… and anything our Father in heaven does not accept in the name [or by the authority] of Jesus Christ will not remain. Or in other words, our Father in heaven is not bound to accept or honor anything that is not accepted by Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is not bound to accept anything He does not authorize.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

This scripture shows that only those who are given Faith from God can come unto Jesus Christ for salvation, because only through Faith can we know Jesus Christ.

Btw, our Lord said this during His mortal life on Earth when our heavenly Father was the one who sent the Holy Ghost to bear witness of the truth, but now that our Father in heaven has given all authority to Jesus Christ both in heaven and on Earth, our Lord is now the one who sends or authorizes the Holy Ghost to come to us and bear witness of the truth.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

This scripture is a record of a prayer offered by our Lord, with our Lord Asking our Father in heaven to keep or accept those who had received Faith, that they may be one (or united) as our Lord was one (or united) with our Father in heaven.

And btw, the only way we can ever become one with our Lord and Father in heaven is by receiving Faith to know the truth, and our own decision to unite our will to the will of God.

Ephesians 1:1-2,13

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[sealing with the Holy Spirit of promise is the guarantee of the security of salvation]

Verse 4 shows that our Father in heaven chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior before the foundation of the world and that through Jesus Christ we can be holy and without blame in love of God.

Verse 5 adds more detail to verse 4, showing that through the gospel we were predestined to be adopted as children of Jesus Christ, whereby we can receive our inheritance from our Father in heaven through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of the will of our Father in heaven.

You then jump from verse 5 to verse 13, nonetheless, verse 13 shows that after the Ephesians put their trust in Jesus Christ after receiving the word of truth (through Faith), they were sealed (or authorized) to receive salvation by that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the only security of salvation there is on this Earth. Or in other words, a witness from the Holy Ghost is the only real assurance that any of us have in regards to salvation while on Earth.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This scripture shows our Father in heaven sent Jesus Christ to save everyone who our Father in heaven had given Faith in Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ will resurrect even those who He had not been given at the last day.

And I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

[Jenda]

I'm glad to see there are some areas in which we agree, Ray! B)

[Laureltree]

I believe both because without understanding it, you cannot demonstrate it. :thinking.idea: