"Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall"

[Misshalfway]

I just read this talk by Elder Oaks and after referring to it in another thread, I felt that maybe it might be food for a good discussion.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall

This talk outlines how Satan not only works on our weaknesses but also attack our strengths by exploiting them.

He then goes on to add a list of warnings. Here is the list with a few sampling sections to start.

I thought it might make for good discussion if not for a good read considering how easy it is sometimes in religious pursuits to lose ones proper perspective.

Gospel Hobbies

My first example concerns Satan’s efforts to corrupt a person who has an unusual commitment to one particular doctrine or commandment of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This could be an unusual talent for family history work, an extraordinary commitment to constitutional government, a special talent in the acquisition of knowledge, or any other special talent or commitment.

Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve has likened the fulness of the gospel to a piano keyboard. He has told us that a person could be “attracted by a single key,” such as a doctrine he or she wants to hear “played over and over again. … Some members of the Church who should know better pick out a hobby key or two and tap them incessantly, to the irritation of those around them. They can dull their own spiritual sensitivities. They lose track that there is a fulness of the gospel … [which they reject] in preference to a favorite note. This becomes exaggerated and distorted, leading them away into apostasy” (Ensign, Dec. 1971, p. 42).

We could say of such persons, as the Lord said of the Shakers in a revelation given in 1831, “They desire to know the truth in part, but not all” (D&C 49:2). Beware of a hobby key. If you tap one key to the exclusion or serious detriment of the full harmony of the gospel keyboard, Satan can use your strength to bring you down.

A Desire to Know All

Another strength Satan can exploit is a strong desire to understand everything about every principle of the gospel. How could that possibly work to our detriment? Experience teaches that if this desire is not disciplined, it can cause some to pursue their searchings beyond the fringes of orthodoxy, seeking answers to obscure mysteries rather than seeking a firmer understanding and a better practice of the basic principles of the gospel.

Some seek answers to questions God has not chosen to answer. Others receive answers—or think they receive answers—in ways that are contrary to the order of the Church. For such searchers, Satan stands ready to mislead through sophistry or spurious revelation. Persons who hunger after a full understanding of all things must discipline their questions and their methods, or they can approach apostasy without even knowing it. It may be just as dangerous to exceed orthodoxy as it is to fall short of it. The safety and happiness we are promised lie in keeping the commandments, not in discounting or multiplying them.

A Desire to Be Led in All Things

Closely related to this example is the person who has a strong desire to be led by the Spirit of the Lord but who unwisely extends that desire to the point of wanting to be led in all things. A desire to be led by the Lord is a strength, but it needs to be accompanied by an understanding that our Heavenly Father leaves many decisions for our personal choices. Personal decision making is one of the sources of the growth we are meant to experience in mortality. Persons who try to shift all decision making to the Lord and plead for revelation in every choice will soon find circumstances in which they pray for guidance and don’t receive it. For example, this is likely to occur in those numerous circumstances in which the choices are trivial or either choice is acceptable.

We should study things out in our minds, using the reasoning powers our Creator has placed within us. Then we should pray for guidance and act upon it if we receive it. If we do not receive guidance, we should act upon our best judgment. Persons who persist in seeking revelatory guidance on subjects on which the Lord has not chosen to direct us may concoct an answer out of their own fantasy or bias, or they may even receive an answer through the medium of false revelation. Revelation from God is a sacred reality, but like other sacred things, it must be cherished and used properly so that a great strength does not become a disabling weakness.

The rest of the list includes:

-Honors can sometimes turn to our detriment

-Social consciousness not tempered by other values

-A desire to sacrifice more than is needful

-An intense focus on goals

-Popular teachers and potential for priestcraft

-Neglect or distortion of family duties

-Excesses in Giving

-Accomplishment and pride

-Distorted faith

-Inordinate church service

-All consuming patriotism

-Not really following the prophet

-Misapplication of love and tolerance

-Misapplication of spiritual gifts.

[Hemidakota]

If this is the case, does this article fit Elder McConkie, who pursuant was a gospel hobby in knowing pursing the same journey as did Abraham? I am filled with gratitude, many of the past did not pursue this reasoning, for it they did, we would not be able to understand a lot of the past scriptures today. I glad my brother Joseph Smith did not follow this council in seeking further knowledge of what was, what is, and what shall be. Many of those precious moments where lightly covered in his latter years prior to his death.

Could you imagine if this talk was given to Abraham who pursuit was to know what the deluge fore-fathers knew? Could you imagine if Enoch read this and not even bother to seek out the same knowledge from his early experience of his grandfather [x7] presence, Adam, who taught him at an early age of great many things that made him question and seek the same knowledge? Could you imagine, if Nephi read this and not even question his father Lehi visions and sought for the same?

In receiving any revelations, whether it be by visions, dreams, or personal eternal thoughts, we seek a divine guidance from GOD and always asked for confirmation by the Holy Ghost. This is an area where Lucifer cannot imitate or replicate.

Even I come to understand a simple principle, which Lord left us in D&C concerning gaining more knowledge in this life that will help us to move faster in the next. It is the same principle, which Abraham and his sons did follow.

Food for thought…

[talisyn]

If this is the case, does this article fit Elder McConkie, who pursuant was a gospel hobby in knowing pursing the same journey as did Abraham? I am filled with gratitude, many of the past did not pursue this reasoning, for it they did, we would not be able to understand a lot of the past scriptures today. I glad my brother Joseph Smith did not follow this council in seeking further knowledge of what was, what is, and what shall be. Many of those precious moments where lightly covered in his latter years prior to his death.

Could you imagine if this talk was given to Abraham who pursuit was to know what the deluge fore-fathers knew? Could you imagine if Enoch read this and not even bother to seek out the same knowledge from his early experience of his grandfather [x7] presence, Adam, who taught him at an early age of great many things that made him question and seek the same knowledge? Could you imagine, if Nephi read this and not even question his father Lehi visions and sought for the same?

In receiving any revelations, whether it be by visions, dreams, or personal eternal thoughts, we seek a divine guidance from GOD and always asked for confirmation by the Holy Ghost. This is an area where Lucifer cannot imitate or replicate.

Even I come to understand a simple principle, which Lord left us in D&C concerning gaining more knowledge in this life that will help us to move faster in the next. It is the same principle, which Abraham and his sons did follow.

Food for thought…

I think the point was to not focus to the exclusion of all other stuff. Like the Shakers example.

[MrsAri]

Isn't it all simply a matter of extremes?

[Misshalfway]

If this is the case, does this article fit Elder McConkie, who pursuant was a gospel hobby in knowing pursing the same journey as did Abraham? I am filled with gratitude, many of the past did not pursue this reasoning, for it they did, we would not be able to understand a lot of the past scriptures today. I glad my brother Joseph Smith did not follow this council in seeking further knowledge of what was, what is, and what shall be. Many of those precious moments where lightly covered in his latter years prior to his death.

Could you imagine if this talk was given to Abraham who pursuit was to know what the deluge fore-fathers knew? Could you imagine if Enoch read this and not even bother to seek out the same knowledge from his early experience of his grandfather [x7] presence, Adam, who taught him at an early age of great many things that made him question and seek the same knowledge? Could you imagine, if Nephi read this and not even question his father Lehi visions and sought for the same?

In receiving any revelations, whether it be by visions, dreams, or personal eternal thoughts, we seek a divine guidance from GOD and always asked for confirmation by the Holy Ghost. This is an area where Lucifer cannot imitate or replicate.

Even I come to understand a simple principle, which Lord left us in D&C concerning gaining more knowledge in this life that will help us to move faster in the next. It is the same principle, which Abraham and his sons did follow.

Food for thought…

Perhaps the conclusion of the talk might shed some light on Elder Oaks main point.

My only other comment would be that I think it is good to seek light and knowledge. But sometimes God doesn't answer us all like Abraham and he doesn't test us that way either. I am me and Father deals with me in ways that fulfill the measure of my creation. I think it is ok to find levels of pleasant satisfaction and live with what measure of knowledge we have in any given moment. This doesn't mean there won't be more. This doesn't mean I should stop asking. It just means I can live in gratitude and faith and that this is enough to please the Lord.

[Guest Alana]

The section of "A Desire to Know All" reminds me of this board, at least the extreme of this board. I love reading the posts on here, but sometimes people do seem to get into 'advanced ideas' that lead astray from the principle of the subject.

An other thing i thought about when I read the exceprt you included was about how I was in high school. I did great in school and spent hours doing homework, it was one of the most important things in my life. There were many times that more effort should have been spent on my family and even on going out with my friends but I was too busy with my nose in a book.

[Hemidakota]

Perhaps the conclusion of the talk might shed some light on Elder Oaks main point.

My only other comment would be that I think it is good to seek light and knowledge. But sometimes God doesn't answer us all like Abraham and he doesn't test us that way either. I am me and Father deals with me in ways that fulfill the measure of my creation. I think it is ok to find levels of pleasant satisfaction and live with what measure of knowledge we have in any given moment. This doesn't mean there won't be more. This doesn't mean I should stop asking. It just means I can live in gratitude and faith and that this is enough to please the Lord.

If you understand these brethren, you find they didn't receive it on a whim either. It is when the desire is in place, the faith necessary to receive it, and the spiritual maturity to understand it. It is also based on our departure, with truths given, in order to prepare ourselves for that tasking.

Now what is good for you is wonderful but what is good for others is wonderful. My caution here, let us never place our limitation upon others who can exceed us in knowledge and glory.

[Misshalfway]

Your objections are interesting and a little unexpected, Hemi. I understand your point and but I don't think the purpose of the talk is to limit God in any way or limit ourselves for that matter. In fact, the end of the talk which I referenced you to before says

" The idea that our strengths can become our weaknesses could be understood to imply that we should have “moderation in all things.” But the Savior said that if we are “lukewarm,” he “will spue [us] out of [his] mouth” (Rev. 3:16). Moderation in all things is not a virtue, because it would seem to justify moderation in commitment. That is not moderation, but indifference. That kind of moderation runs counter to the divine commands to serve with all of our “heart, might, mind and strength” (D&C 4:2), to “seek … earnestly the riches of eternity” (D&C 68:31), and to be “valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). Moderation is not the answer."

[Misshalfway]

The section of "A Desire to Know All" reminds me of this board, at least the extreme of this board. I love reading the posts on here, but sometimes people do seem to get into 'advanced ideas' that lead astray from the principle of the subject.

An other thing i thought about when I read the exceprt you included was about how I was in high school. I did great in school and spent hours doing homework, it was one of the most important things in my life. There were many times that more effort should have been spent on my family and even on going out with my friends but I was too busy with my nose in a book.

Thanks for sharing that Alana. This talk really resonated with me when I read it. I know it isn't from GC but I found it to be very insightful. I feel like I see these pitfalls creep into and sometimes mascarade themselves as sound doctrinal understanding when really it is just another of Satan's deceptions.

I was thinking a lot about perfectionism as this is a stumbling block of mine. And I often feel the Spirit nudging me back to center on not getting so caught up in doing everything right. And I guess I was comforted a bit by the comments with regarding the desire to know all things. We don't need to know all things to go forward with strength and righteousness. What a relief!

I also remember a few impressions I had during my MTC days. We had these large group meetings and some of the young college teachers were very charismatic and funny as they helped us laugh thru our tears while learning our lessons. At the time, I misunderstood and thought that this charisma meant they were superior in spirituality. But then I saw that sometimes the lessons became more about the teacher and less about the gospel principle. And I wondered quietly if the teachers started to become entertainers or maybe at the least wrestled with ego as they got lots of praise of the world.

[Hemidakota]

It is when we limited others from reaching their divine potential I am opposed too.

There are many objections to Elder McConkie writings, which other GAs would state. Some of which, he was correct. Though, it places the church in an uncomfortable position but he was still right. I have learn from his experience, we do not convey topics where it places the church in this position no matter the correctness. Elder McConkie was not moderate in anything he did in his life. His book conveyed that trait. However, he did achieve something most will not achieve in morality - Sure Knowledge. His calling and election was sealed as it was seen in his last talk. For his life, this would not have been possible if he did not live this trait of obsession of the learning the gospel. He is one of a few I do know who have the same trait. :)

Thanks...

[ryanh]

Hemi, I too am just a little surprised that you appear to have taken exception to the warnings of Elder Oaks. I don't see any admonitions to not seek out hidden knowledge, or that having that as a 'hobby' as being a problem.

What I took away was simply a caution to be careful that such search of knowledge doesn't become a weakness. One way that could happen would be if it became an obsession. If one were to become too obsessed with obtaining of knowledge, the adversary could use that as an opportunity to begin leading the person astray. Obviously, that leading astray is not a given for those seeking knowledge, but it is a possibility if the desire is not kept in perspective.

[MrsAri]

On the other hand, was Jesus an extremist? Was Joseph Smith? I think there is a balance, but again, we must each follow our own spirit in such matters. Some may need to go to the extreme in life simply because that is their calling.

[Hemidakota]

Hemi, I too am just a little surprised that you appear to have taken exception to the warnings of Elder Oaks. I don't see any admonitions to not seek out hidden knowledge, or that having that as a 'hobby' as being a problem.

What I took away was simply a caution to be careful that such search of knowledge doesn't become a weakness. One way that could happen would be if it became an obsession. If one were to become too obsessed with obtaining of knowledge, the adversary could use that as an opportunity to begin leading the person astray. Obviously, that leading astray is not a given for those seeking knowledge, but it is a possibility if the desire is not kept in perspective.

There are exceptions where I will not agree with another brother [brethren] when I am a recipient of it, and it came by GOD or HIS called ministering Spirit. GOD is no respecter of persons as Paul found out; using him as an example. As I also agree to an aspect for those who do not understand how revelation is received and confirmed, should avoid it as a hobby and avoid it at all cost.

Even in the Celestial Kingdom, we may not agree on a topic doesn't mean, we are not unified. Through our evolutionary journey until we reached the image of GOD, we gain different strengths, talents, knowledge, and so forth, where now, GOD has planned out path in completing the edification for our own salvation as individual. The neat part, we are dependant on each other or upon our Elder brother – Jesus Christ for all answers [absent of the FATHER].

What others may need to remember, anything that is hidden, is never given to a person who is not called by the Godhead through the selection of the Holy Ghost.

[Hemidakota]

On the other hand, was Jesus an extremist? Was Joseph Smith? I think there is a balance, but again, we must each follow our own spirit in such matters. Some may need to go to the extreme in life simply because that is their calling.

Exactly...this is what I am referring too. Our pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal callings are the key to what is given to us in order to fulfill our destiny or the 'will of the FATHER'.

Anything else is a bonus...

[Misshalfway]

There are exceptions where I will not agree with another brother [brethren] when I am a recipient of it, and it came by GOD or HIS called ministering Spirit. GOD is no respecter of persons as Paul found out; using him as an example. As I also agree to an aspect for those who do not understand how revelation is received and confirmed, should avoid it as a hobby and avoid it at all cost.

Even in the Celestial Kingdom, we may not agree on a topic doesn't mean, we are not unified. Through our evolutionary journey until we reached the image of GOD, we gain different strengths, talents, knowledge, and so forth, where now, GOD has planned out path in completing the edification for our own salvation as individual. The neat part, we are dependant on each other or upon our Elder brother – Jesus Christ for all answers [absent of the FATHER].

What others may need to remember, anything that is hidden, is never given to a person who is not called by the Godhead through the selection of the Holy Ghost.

What happens if these kind of blessing aren't given by the Lord. Do we panic? Get angry? Get down on ourselves? Quit? I think that the still small voice of the Spirit is just as miraculous as other blessings we know of.

[Hemidakota]

Yes! It will correct us.

[Hemidakota]

What happens if these kind of blessing aren't given by the Lord. Do we panic? Get angry? Get down on ourselves? Quit? I think that the still small voice of the Spirit is just as miraculous as other blessings we know of.

Truly is a marvelous and miraculous moment for us in having this manifestation

In our lives (still small voice).

[lattelady]

Misshalfway, thanks for that! The thing this writing made me think of is a tendency to want to have the Spirit of God lead us--which is a good thing, something we SHOULD seek to have. But if we go to an extreme and say, "I'm waiting for a leading of the Spirit, a moving of the Spirit" (which often means some kind of "feeling"), that can be a dangerous thing. God never contradicts Himself. So when the Spirit moves, it will align with the written Word of God that we already have. I have to remember not to go to the extreme of waiting for a feeling from the Spirit to move me to action--I shouldn't act on the basis of this "feeling" alone. I always need to measure that feeling against the standard of God's Word--then I can move with confidence, knowing that He has spoken.

[Thethuthinnang]

Interesting...I have an obsession with learning, I'm always looking stuff up and asking questions and reading about things (religion-related or not lol)...I guess maybe that could be harmful if not kept in check. I have OCD though, so it's hard sometimes...but I don't think I do it at dangerous levels. I'm just a very curious person. :)

[Misshalfway]

Interesting...I have an obsession with learning, I'm always looking stuff up and asking questions and reading about things (religion-related or not lol)...I guess maybe that could be harmful if not kept in check. I have OCD though, so it's hard sometimes...but I don't think I do it at dangerous levels. I'm just a very curious person. :)

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with loving learning and nuturing a healthy curiousity about things. What would we do without people who didn't ask questions or view things outside the box? And how awful ignorance is! Again....Oaks says moderation is not the answer.

Perhaps it is the unhealthy "need" to know the answer to everything that Oaks is referring to. Wanting to know everything.....well, that is one thing. Demanding it.....believing it is possible.....holding out on exercizing faith or humbling oneself to a wiser being.....I think this is where the stumbling block is. There is no doubt in my mind that this life isn't about having a perfect knowledge. We must learn to walk by faith and learn to obtain knowledge in that sort of happy merkiness. It is clear that the Lord invites us to study but includes that we must study by faith. Which is a very different concept than just obtaining answers. I also think God also wants us to learn to stand on our own and make choices and live life according to the wisdom He has already given to us. There is wisdom and growth and even creativity that develops when we learn to work with what we have.

And I guess if such a pursuit were to divide ones time or energies away from family or other important responsibilities, it could be problematic that way.

Edited September 17, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Hemidakota]

I thought about this last night...one of those sleepless nights MissHW. Now, what is truism here, [still Small Voice] this is how I received the final mortal epiphany – whom I am. Thanks for being patience with me on this subject.

[MrsAri]

Lest we not confuse "passion" with obsession! We each have a mission in life. I have a passion for music, but when I was offered a recording contract, I didn't act on it. I knew there were more important things for me to accomplish.

[Misshalfway]

Hemi,

I hate it when I can't sleep. Yuck. But you gotta know we all love you here. And it does helps to think on things. I was thinking about this one ....

Not Really Following the Prophet

A desire to follow a prophet is surely a great and appropriate strength, but even this has its potentially dangerous manifestations. I have heard of more than one group so intent on following the words of a dead prophet that they have rejected the teachings and counsel of the living ones. Satan has used that corruption from the beginning of the Restoration. You will recall Joseph Smith’s direction for the Saints to gather in Kirtland, Ohio, then in Missouri, and then in Illinois. At each place along the way, a certain number of Saints fell away, crying “fallen prophet” as their excuse for adhering to the earlier words and rejecting the current direction. The same thing happened after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, when some Saints seized upon one statement or another by the deceased Prophet as a basis for sponsoring or joining a new group that rejected the counsel of the living prophets.

Following the prophet is a great strength, but it needs to be consistent and current, lest it lead to the spiritual downfall that comes from rejecting continuous revelation. Under that principle, the most important difference between dead prophets and living ones is that those who are dead are not here to receive and declare the Lord’s latest words to his people. If they were, there would be no differences among the messages of the prophets.

A related distortion is seen in the practice of those who select a few sentences from the teachings of a prophet and use them to support their political agenda or other personal purposes. In doing so, they typically ignore the contrary implications of other prophetic words, or even the clear example of the prophet’s own actions. For example, I have corresponded with several Church members who sought to use something President Ezra Taft Benson was quoted as saying as a basis for refusing to file an income tax return or to pay income taxes.

I have tried to persuade these persons that their interpretation cannot be what President Benson intended, because all who have held that sacred office, and all of the General Authorities, have faithfully filed their income tax returns and paid the taxes required by law. The servants of God are under the Master’s commands to follow him and to be examples to the flock (see 1 Tim. 4:12; 1 Pet. 5:3). We should interpret their words in the light of their works. To wrest the words of a prophet to support a private agenda, political or financial or otherwise, is to try to manipulate the prophet, not to follow him.

.......last night and pondering a few ideas about it. I have been thinking a lot about the history of the church in terms of what mistakes were made vs. what the Lord was trying to accomplish. And I wondered if I was getting to caught up in the words or actions of dead prophets. Perhaps when a prophet dies, his counsel or perspectives or influences die out with him in some ways. It seems there are words of dead prophets that do transcend time or circumstance. Perhaps we need to learn how to perceive the words of dead prophets as we heed the ones for the current day. So many times when I read a talk or something that was given to a small group, such as a fireside, I wonder if that revelation wasn't for me. Good, but not for me. And perhaps it is a pitfall to think that because we do it differently or think differently than times past that true revelation isn't happening. The constant update or course correction is so inherently mormon.

I dont' know. Not saying I have made any decisions here. Just mullling it over.

[bytor2112]

It is when we limited others from reaching their divine potential I am opposed too.

There are many objections to Elder McConkie writings, which other GAs would state. Some of which, he was correct. Though, it places the church in an uncomfortable position but he was still right. I have learn from his experience, we do not convey topics where it places the church in this position no matter the correctness. Elder McConkie was not moderate in anything he did in his life. His book conveyed that trait. However, he did achieve something most will not achieve in morality - Sure Knowledge. His calling and election was sealed as it was seen in his last talk. For his life, this would not have been possible if he did not live this trait of obsession of the learning the gospel. He is one of a few I do know who have the same trait. :)

Thanks...

I am big fan of Elder McConkie and listen to his talks often and read his many works that have had such a grand influence on the church and church members. Have you read the biography written by his son, Joseph Fielding McConkie? (The Bruce McConkie Story) Really a warmly written book.

Elder McConkie counseled to avoid fanaticism and to stay in the main stream of the church.

[Thethuthinnang]

Perhaps it is the unhealthy "need" to know the answer to everything that Oaks is referring to. Wanting to know everything.....well, that is one thing. Demanding it.....believing it is possible.....holding out on exercizing faith or humbling oneself to a wiser being.....I think this is where the stumbling block is. There is no doubt in my mind that this life isn't about having a perfect knowledge.

Yes, so very true. I sometimes, probably due to the OCD, tend to waaaaay overthink things. It can be hard to make decisions and truly discern what you feel about something if you delve TOO deeply into it. Because you'll be constantly second-guessing yourself, and constantly looking for new information that counters the information you already had. So yes, in that sense it's bad! I've gotten much better at pulling back from overthinking, at listening to when it feels right to me and trusting that that is the right choice. That is where learning to pray and trust in God comes in handy. As a rebellious "atheist" teen, that's when it was hard, because I relied only on my own self, and had much difficulty with decisions back then.