Are you flippin kidding me???????

[Maxel]

Whoah... I just got owned in this argument. Whether a little evil or a big evil, it's evil.

So yes: I will agree with you on this one. Mindless political acceptance of one personality paves the way for mindless political acceptance of a far darker agenda.

I'm sorry... I didn't mean to be overbearing. Hope I didn't come across that way.

[FunkyTown]

I'm sorry... I didn't mean to be overbearing. Hope I didn't come across that way.

Hahah. No way, Maxel! I want to be able to admit when I'm wrong and in this case? I was definitely wrong.

While I don't think this has anything to do with Obama, I can agree that this was definitely a bad thing. Whoever did this should be sat down and have the democratic process and personal accountability explained to them.

[MrsAri]

This type of brainwashing is quite common in the public school system. When my children were younger, I took a break from homeschooling and enrolled them in public school...big mistake! Popular at that time was Kids' Voting. I remember my daughter coming home upset one day because she was made fun of for voting for a certain candidate.

[Obama] has also endorsed teaching sex education for 5 yr. old children; i.e., teaching gay tolerance. Biblical Christian parents teach their children that this lifestyle is wrong.

Of course, this whole thing is entirely politically motivated. What is the overall objective in addressing our school children?

[annewandering]

I cant believe it grandma but we are in agreement for once. I think it is unconscionable to propagandize our children. Either way. Schools are to teach not convert.

It seems that every side has used them for the purpose of propaganda for generations though.

Patriotism is good. We should teach our kids to support our government and why. We should teach them to take sides of a discussion and be able to say why they pick that side and my parents said so is not a good reason. (its hardly a good thing for us, as parents, to tell our kids what to think either.)

Schools are to teach facts and teach kids how to learn, not what to think.

[MrsAri]

I cant believe it grandma but we are in agreement for once. I think it is unconscionable to propagandize our children. Either way. Schools are to teach not convert.

It seems that every side has used them for the purpose of propaganda for generations though.

Patriotism is good. We should teach our kids to support our government and why. We should teach them to take sides of a discussion and be able to say why they pick that side and my parents said so is not a good reason. (its hardly a good thing for us, as parents, to tell our kids what to think either.)

Schools are to teach facts and teach kids how to learn, not what to think.

Miracles never cease! lol

The bad part about public schooling is that so much of our founding history has been removed from text books. Unless parents teach their children, they won't learn American history with a patriotic perspective.

[FunkyTown]

Miracles never cease! lol

The bad part about public schooling is that so much of our founding history has been removed from text books. Unless parents teach their children, they won't learn American history with a patriotic perspective.

People need to be taught history free from bias and not from a patriotic perspective: If all you learn is what a 'patriot' should know, you will never improve your country.

Learning a historically accurate perspective would include Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton(And including their reasoning for why they voted certain ways). It would include both the Iran Contra Affair and the Evil Empire speech of Reagan. It would talk about the UK-US alliance with Stalin and the post-war Cold War.

If all you do is whitewash history, people will make the same mistakes they've always done.

[annewandering]

If all you do is whitewash history, people will make the same mistakes they've always done./QUOTE]

Which is why children should be taught the facts and how to learn. After that they can make up their own minds.

[Maxel]

People need to be taught history free from bias and not from a patriotic perspective: If all you learn is what a 'patriot' should know, you will never improve your country.

Depends on the qualities of what a true 'patriot' is. Blindly believing whitewashed fairy tales because one can't stand to accept the faults and mistakes of past leaders isn't true patriotism, it's blind acceptance.

I think a historic account can be both factually true and patriotic. I think the best way to overcome bias is to admit it outright and acknowledge contested facts/opinions.

I think that children not only need to be taught facts, but also need to be taught what said facts mean. If we don't teach our children the real meaning of the past, they'll be far more likely to believe whoever twists facts to their own agenda.

Ultimately, it's an imperfect system- but the best one in a fallen world.

[MrsAri]

People need to be taught history free from bias and not from a patriotic perspective: If all you learn is what a 'patriot' should know, you will never improve your country.

Learning a historically accurate perspective would include Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton(And including their reasoning for why they voted certain ways). It would include both the Iran Contra Affair and the Evil Empire speech of Reagan. It would talk about the UK-US alliance with Stalin and the post-war Cold War.

If all you do is whitewash history, people will make the same mistakes they've always done.

Removing material from textbooks regarding the founding of America is extremely biased.

One of the communist goals, which was entered into the 1963 Congressional Record is as follows:

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record

[FunkyTown]

I am very uncomfortable that we're using a throwback to the AWARE and McCarthy mentality to prove a point.

Regardless, despite my personal intense dislike of McCarthy, I agree: ALL aspects of history have to be taught: Not just the history that serves a teacher's political agenda. This means that, yes, the Jefferson and Hamilton should be taught - Even when they disagreed on things like trade and international credit.

So should Manifest Destiny.

Jefferson vs. Hamilton: I LOVE this clip of the argument:

YouTube - Alexander Hamilton takes Jefferson to school

Removing material from textbooks regarding the founding of America is extremely biased.

One of the communist goals, which was entered into the 1963 Congressional Record is as follows:

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record

[MrsAri]

I am very uncomfortable that we're using a throwback to the AWARE and McCarthy mentality to prove a point.

Regardless, despite my personal intense dislike of McCarthy, I agree: ALL aspects of history have to be taught: Not just the history that serves a teacher's political agenda. This means that, yes, the Jefferson and Hamilton should be taught - Even when they disagreed on things like trade and international credit.

So should Manifest Destiny.

Jefferson vs. Hamilton: I LOVE this clip of the argument:

YouTube - Alexander Hamilton takes Jefferson to school

Would you qualify the communist goals, as outlined and entered into the Congressional Record, "McCarthyism"? Isn't the Congressional Record a part of history?

Would you not consider Cleon Skousen, not only to be a patriot, but a historian as well? Have you read any of his books? Are you familiar with the NCCS?

Have you read the teachings of Pres. Ezra Taft Benson, and his warnings to America in regard to the loss of freedom? Would you not consider Pres. Benson to be a prophet? Do you regard his teachings as being that of "McCarthyism"?

Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record

[FunkyTown]

I'm not saying don't teach it. I think it's important to teach about the paranoia of the time and how people reacted to that.

I should point out that I can't intelligently comment on Skousen because I haven't read anything he's written, though I wouldn't mind picking up 'The 5000 year leap'. I should also point out that for every patriot/historian who agrees with you, there will be a patriot/historian who disagrees with you, Ari. You'll just dismiss them because they disagree with you.

As for Ezra Taft Benson, I can definitely say that he was an inspired member of the quorum of the 12 apostles. I can also definitely say that the majority of the Quorum didn't teach as much of an anti-Communist message.

Would you qualify the communist goals, as outlined and entered into the Congressional Record, "McCarthyism"? Isn't the Congressional Record a part of history?

Would you not consider Cleon Skousen, not only to be a patriot, but a historian as well? Have you read any of his books? Are you familiar with the NCCS?

Have you read the teachings of Pres. Ezra Taft Benson, and his warnings to America in regard to the loss of freedom? Would you not consider Pres. Benson to be a prophet? Do you regard his teachings as being that of "McCarthyism"?

Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record

[boyando]

I'm not saying don't teach it. I think it's important to teach about the paranoia of the time and how people reacted to that.

I should point out that I can't intelligently comment on Skousen because I haven't read anything he's written, though I wouldn't mind picking up 'The 5000 year leap'. I should also point out that for every patriot/historian who agrees with you, there will be a patriot/historian who disagrees with you, Ari. You'll just dismiss them because they disagree with you.

As for Ezra Taft Benson, I can definitely say that he was an inspired member of the quorum of the 12 apostles. I can also definitely say that the majority of the Quorum didn't teach as much of an anti-Communist message.

We agree when you say that showing individuals from history, warts and all, is a good thing. But when you focus on the warts or even equate the warts with the good that an individual has done, to make your point of view, then you lose me.

I also wonder about what your point that the other 11 apostles didn't teach as much of an anti-communist message means.

I don't believe that you are trying to tell us that because they were not talking out as much about communism, that they believed it was OK. But it sure comes across that way to me.

There are a lot of evils in this world. And we do live in a time were men call evil good and good evil. You and I are stuck trying to figure out which is which.

[MrsAri]

I'm not saying don't teach it. I think it's important to teach about the paranoia of the time and how people reacted to that.

I should point out that I can't intelligently comment on Skousen because I haven't read anything he's written, though I wouldn't mind picking up 'The 5000 year leap'. I should also point out that for every patriot/historian who agrees with you, there will be a patriot/historian who disagrees with you, Ari. You'll just dismiss them because they disagree with you.

As for Ezra Taft Benson, I can definitely say that he was an inspired member of the quorum of the 12 apostles. I can also definitely say that the majority of the Quorum didn't teach as much of an anti-Communist message.

Actually, the reason I dismiss liberal propaganda is because it is wrong!

Have you read Pres. McKay's directive to the church in regard to communism?

Re: lds.org "communism"

LDS.org - Search

First Presidency Message, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942

[Maxel]

I'm gonna make my favorite argument for Benson's political views being correct:

Benson became the President, thereby immortalizing his political views in LDS culture and history. If he never had become the President, his stances against Communism wouldn't have been nearly as widely known.

Coincidence, or Godly wisdom...? It's open to interpretation, methinks.

Also- does anyone know if any of the GA's of Benson's time actually favored or supported Communism? Not just were silent on the issue, but preferred Communism over Constitutional Republicanism?

[Maxel]

Actually, the reason I dismiss liberal propaganda is because it is wrong!

Have you read Pres. McKay's directive to the church in regard to communism?

...

First Presidency Message, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942

Oh wow... I didn't know President McKay talked about this two! Here's the section about Communism for anyone who's interested:

False Political Isms

We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America. The proponents thereof are seeking to undermine our own form of government and to set up instead one of the forms of dictatorships now flourishing in other lands. These revolutionists are using a technique that is as old as the human race—a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate over whom they thus gain mastery and then enslave them.

They suit their approaches to the particular group they seek to deceive. Among the Latter-day Saints they speak of their philosophy and their plans under it as an ushering in of the United Order. Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan. Communism debases the individual and makes him the enslaved tool of the state to whom he must look for sustenance and religion; the United Order exalts the individual, leaves him his property, "according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs," (D&C 51:3) and provides a system by which he helps care for his less fortunate brethren; the United Order leaves every man free to choose his own religion as his conscience directs. Communism destroys man's God-given free agency; the United Order glorifies it. Latter-day Saints can not be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.

I thought the whole "Communism being Satan's counterfeit of the United Order" was just an astute observation among the Saints. I didn't know it came directly from a prophet of God!

[MrsAri]

Oh wow... I didn't know President McKay talked about this two! Here's the section about Communism for anyone who's interested:

I thought the whole "Communism being Satan's counterfeit of the United Order" was just an astute observation among the Saints. I didn't know it came directly from a prophet of God!

President McKay was very outspoken against communism. You can read his directive in Prophets, Principles and National Survival, p 210: Communism: The Position of the Church.

In fact, I would highly recommend this book to LDS patriots, if you can locate a copy.

Prophets, Principles and National Survival

[MrsAri]

Further testimony:

God will have a free people, and while we have a duty to perform to preach the Gospel, we have another to perform, that is, to stand up in the defence of human rights — in the defence of our own rights, the rights of our children, and in defence of the rights of this nation and of all men, no matter who they may he, and God being our helper to maintain those principles and to lift up a standard for the honorable of this and other nations to flock to, that they may be free from the tyranny and oppression that is sought to be crowded upon them. This is the duty we have to perform, and in the name of Israel's God we will do it.

President John Taylor, 1882, JD-23:239

Edited September 29, 2009 by GrandmaAri

[MrsAri]

"Will the Constitution be destroyed? No; it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, 'the time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At this critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.' It will be so."

President Brigham Young, 1854, JD-7:15

"In connection with the attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang as it were by a thread, and at that time, 'this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.' It is my conviction that the Elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will, at that crucial time, successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of Constitutional government. Now is the time to get ready."

Ezra Taft Benson, CR-10/61:70

Edited September 29, 2009 by GrandmaAri

[Moksha]

This Obama bashing seems so political.

[FunkyTown]

Yyyyyes, Ari. While this piece from general conference does say that Communism is a tool, it says to beware all false political isms.

Like Liberalism.

And Conservativism.

Communism, since it teaches that religion is the opiate of the masses and thus outlaws it, will always be at odds with the church. However, this piece you gave me has a one paragraph treaty saying not to follow it. It doesn't state that Communism is the source of all evil. In fact, you'll note that this is during World War II and he also would probably be terming Fascism in this particular talk.

I should also note that you don't dismiss liberal propaganda: You dismiss reality that doesn't agree with your political agenda.

Actually, the reason I dismiss liberal propaganda is because it is wrong!

Have you read Pres. McKay's directive to the church in regard to communism?

Re: lds.org "communism"

LDS.org - Search

First Presidency Message, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942

[Elphaba]

:animatedlol:

[talisyn]

*sigh*

/em shakes head and walk off.

[Maxel]

Is this Communism tangent too political, or can we discuss it as long as we leave living political figures out of the discussion? Because I have a point I want to make- but not if it goes against current forum policy.

[Moksha]

This Obama bashing seems so political.

So has this recent forum policy taken a turn about and we can get back to 80% politics 20% religion?