Personal Level of Atonement for Apostles...

[MaMeeshkaMow]

I have the highest respect for the prophet and apostles. They breathe worthiness, the light of Christ shines through their eyes...how "deep" into the Atonement did they have to go through to attain that righteousness? What I'm asking is do you think any of them have gone through painful repentance experiences (for more serious sins) to personally experience the Atonement or do you think it's mostly helping others (as former Bishops, Stake Presidents) go through repentance that give them more understanding of the atonement?

I guess the second part of that questions is do you need to go through the lows of lows (of sin) to understand the high of highs (feeling connected to God through the atonement)? Do you have to experience personal anguish because of personal bad choices of sin to understand God's higher purpose?

Please discuss...

[beefche]

I think the scriptures are clear on your questions. Paul was a pretty bad dude, yet he became an apostle.

Nephi was a pretty good dude and he knew was sin was and how real repentance is.

[ploomf]

I don't think you need to commit "big" sins to appreciate the healing power of the atonement. Even the smaller sins we commit every day can add up and bring spiritual pain. And really when you compare our lives to Jesus’ life, we’re all in pretty bad shape and we all need the atonement.

[sixpacktr]

Just read that today in Jesus the Christ. In discussing the Prodigal Son, Talmadge discusses the false belief that we have to 'experience bad sin' in order to really understand the atonement.

My personal opinion is that all of us need to experience the absolute reality of the atonement, as we all are in need of its purifying power. We all know that we fall short of the glory of God as He cannot tolerate even the slightest degree of sin, and we are thus beholden to Christ to be our Advocate and Redeemer. As such, whether we commit 'major' sins or minor ones, we all need to know that the Atonement is real and applicable to our lives.

So no, I don't think that they did anything 'major'. They just realized that even the 'small' sins kept them from having the Spirit fully and thus exercised the cleansing of the Atonement in their own lives and therefore have a strong and powerful testimony of its reality.

Edited October 6, 2009 by sixpacktr

[silvermoon]

I don't think I would want to know to what degree their sins might have been. I don't believe it matters. What matters is that today they are Apostles for the Lord and leaders of His church.

Also, the Lord does not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. So, it doesn't matter if we sin a little one or a big one because they both keep us out of God's presence. All sin needs to be repented of.

[bytor2112]

The Light of Christ that shines through their eyes is there because of obedience. Valiant service and obedience. As for repentance......it means to change. They are great examples of the miracle of the Atonement and the change that occurs over time by partaking of the Living Waters.

[Snow]

What I'm asking is do you think any of them have gone through painful repentance experiences (for more serious sins) to personally experience the Atonement...?

Oh yes. Yes indeed.

Elder Claudio Costa engaged in hooliganism solely in order to personally experience the atonement.

Emeritus Elder Gene R. Cook, it is believed, committed petty misdemeanors in his heart.

Elder Robert Hales once lost $20 in an ill-fated attempt at money laundering.

The list goes on and on.

[MaMeeshkaMow]

Thanks for the responses!

[rameumptom]

The righteous go through a "Trial of Abraham", through which testing they experience the lowest of the lows. D&C 132 tells us that those who receive all their covenants and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise will yet have to be "buffeted by Satan" before their exaltation. I view this as being tested and tried, even as Job or Abraham was. Whether it occurs in this life, or in the Spirit World, or both, we don't know.

In this manner do all of us learn/experience the depths of hell, so that we also may be able to succor those around us, even as Christ does.

We often don't realize that atoning for sins is just one part of the Atonement of Christ. The resurrection of the dead falls upon all, good and evil. And as Andrew Skinner notes, the atonement of Christ brings about both mercy and justice. Mercy for our sins and faults. Justice to compensate for the unfair things that have happened to us in this life. The atonement heals our mental, emotional, and physical afflications - even if they were imposed upon us.

Edited October 6, 2009 by rameumptom

[Universeman]

I could care less if my sins are worse than a general authority’s or yours or anyone else’s, so long as I repent of my sins it makes no difference. Sometimes I screw up and I have to repent, that’s life, while President Monson may be better at not sinning then we are that’s completely irrelevant to our salvation.

Even the worst sins can be fully repented of except for the unpardonable sin, if you screw up really bad, think of the most horrible crime you have ever heard of, that person can fully repent of his sins and receive exaltation, it surely will not be an easy road for that person but that’s the atonement if you think otherwise (or someone you know) then you(they) don't understand the gospel. I love the gospel, it fills my jar with warm fuzzys!

[Universeman]

I’m not sure how sinning and repenting or living righteously affects ones understanding of the atonement, I feel like I have a very good grasp on the true meaning of the atonement and the love the savior has for me even when I sin. However the more consistent I am at being obedient and righteous the more in tune I am with the spirit. That’s the big difference I think, any of us can have unlimited access to personal revelation if we strive our best to be obedient and live the gospel the best we are able to, I don’t think the general authorities have special access to revelation except where it comes to governing the lords kingdom, in other words all of us are entitled to the same level of understanding of the atonement and to have a testimony of the truthfulness of the restoration.