TruthSeekerToo Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Dang, I was really just trying to find out if you are a judge....I've often wondered. :) JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 It's not cease to exist, it's cease to be God.God must be just. If He is ever not just, then He is not God. Still don't understand how God would cease to be God. Is Man's defining fiat enough to obliterate his Godhood?Think I could go both ways on either mercy tempering justice or mercy trumping justice. For me, the Christian message of love and forgiveness stands above any previous conception of a harsh God that limits his love to one small group of people in the middle east and even then smites his chosen ones when they get out of hand.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Maybe think of it like this... would Christ have been able to perform the atonement had He sinned just once? No. It required a perfect sacrifice, or even one who was perfect. God is the same way. He is who He is because He is perfect. One act of unfairness will take away who and what He is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeekerToo Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Maybe think of it like this... would Christ have been able to perform the atonement had He sinned just once? No. It required a perfect sacrifice, or even one who was perfect.God is the same way. He is who He is because He is perfect. One act of unfairness will take away who and what He is.Could you give an example of what would be an unfair act? What would God have to do to be unjust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeekerToo Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 How about this - If Heavenly Father did not send Jesus to die, and then gave everyone eternal life. that would be unjust.True. But it would be merciful.Is there any action he could take that would be both unjust and unmerciful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Actually, the act described would be unmerciful to those who could not abide His presence. They would be forever cast out with no chance at redemption. At least with mortality, the atonement, and agency, those who would be cast out can choose a better place than outer darkness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeekerToo Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 So, granting eternal life to all his children is unjust and unmerciful. BTW, I was assuming that our agency remained intact in that scenario. Killing babies because their parents are pagan is...... Killing a man because he touched the ark is..... Taking away their mortality, agency and ability to repent (in the case of the man). so that should likewise be unjust and unmerciful. Therefore, it can't be something God would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 I really have no comment... other than we see it differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Still don't understand how God would cease to be God. Is Man's defining fiat enough to obliterate his Godhood?Think I could go both ways on either mercy tempering justice or mercy trumping justice. For me, the Christian message of love and forgiveness stands above any previous conception of a harsh God that limits his love to one small group of people in the middle east and even then smites his chosen ones when they get out of hand.:)It is because there are laws which govern being God. D&C 88 states one must abide by a celestial law in order to be celestial. This would hold true for God,as well. Can God lie? Can God thrust the righteous into outer darkness, or exalt Satan? No. These are not within the laws He has chosen to live by, which is what makes Him God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 What is God's justice during our earthly probation? I think that is where people get confused. A lot of Bible stories we have seem to be in conflict with justice and especially mercy. I am only talking about things that have been attributed to God in the scriptures-not the unfairness we see in the world.Is it equatable and just for God to command the children of Isreal (who struggled with idolatry) to slaughter an entire city of people accused of idolatry-including innocent children and animals?If so, how? And why would it be okay to wipe out one population for idolatry and not the other?Is it just for God to preserve the murderer Cain and strike the guy dead who tried to steady the ark of the covenant? If so, how?Is the death penalty JUST for adultery and fornication like it says in the law of Moses? If so, why wasn't Judah struck dead for sleeping with his daughter-in-law (he thought she was just a prostitute). Her husband was apparantly naughty enough to be struck dead by God and the brother was struck dead for not "raising up seed to his brother." Why weren't Hitler and some of these mass murderers and tyrants struck dead?Justice doesn't mean different penalties and rewards for the same works. That is unjust.At the judgement bar will God show favortism? Will some murderers be treated better than some who tried to "steady the ark?"I think "God's justice during our earthly probation" has more to do with his overall purposes and not an individual judgment. If it is something that will slow down or stop God's overall plan to bring about the eternal life of man then He may intervene and meet out judgment through His own actions our through the hands of His servants. But, I don't think those acts are final judgments or just done for punishment, they are for a bigger purpose, to continue the overall plan of God to continue and to provide opportunity for His children to carry out the purposes of this world. The judgments for sins in this world were never intended to be paid in full while we are still here, in fact I think you can only really pay them in full when a person completely understands the gravity of the sin. If someone hasn't repented then they will not fully understand the gravity of the sin until that is revealed to them in spirit prison. So, even if someone was "struck dead" for a sin here, the punishment is not over until they fully understand the gravity of their sin, not until the next life. And, I think, that would be worse than the death penalty itself. Remember what was said to Nephi, " 1 Nephi 4:13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." ... that would be a reason a person is struck dead by God, or delivered to one of His servants for punishment, there is a bigger reason, sometimes we don't know all the reasons, sometimes we find out in the scriptures. But even for Laban, his death in Nephi's hands is not the end of his punishment for stealing Lehi's possessions and not listening to the commandments from God. I don't think those things are for 'justice' they are just to keep the world on track with God's purposes for this world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 1 Nephi 4:13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes.Exactly. WHat we may see as murder, the Lord has a righteous purpose. The Lord's purposes give as many people the best chance for eternal life. We may not be able to see it.The Lord said bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man is His work and glory. Why would He do anything counter-productive to His own efforts?I guess it's something you either believe or don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Frankly, the doctrine of the Age of Accountability is one of the most difficult to support biblically. I can offer references, such as Jesus saying to "suffer the children to come unto me." Further, since we who believe in credo-baptism (baptism because of belief), do not believe sacraments confer salvation, we're left to conclude that those not mature enough to discern right from wrong are redeemed by Christ's blood. Not because they are sinless, but because they are too young understand what it means to make a turn around--to repent. BTW, yes, I can see that if such an approach were expanded, it would lead to many other groups of people being automatically saved...or at least could. So, I'd offer Romans 1, with it's declaration that "men are without excuse," to caution against over-applying this teaching. I agree in part with what you are saying - but I see things a little differently – little children are redeemed by Christ because they are sinless. The important point is that only the sinless can be redeemed. The rest of us that have sinned and are accountable must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins to become sinless like little children; before we can be redeemed and inherit the kingdom of heaven. I believe this doctrine is very well supported in the scriptures.The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I've never thought this through but I wonder what it would take for a child to sin? If he or she does anything against God like not honor your father or mother or anything else, would they still be sinless? I wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I've never thought this through but I wonder what it would take for a child to sin? If he or she does anything against God like not honor your father or mother or anything else, would they still be sinless? I wonder. See post #40 The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 So, granting eternal life to all his children is unjust and unmerciful. BTW, I was assuming that our agency remained intact in that scenario. Killing babies because their parents are pagan is......Killing a man because he touched the ark is.....Taking away their mortality, agency and ability to repent (in the case of the man). so that should likewise be unjust and unmerciful. Therefore, it can't be something God would do."Killing" as you put it, to God, is not the same as a person taking the life of someone else. Having the person return home, which is the better way of saying "killing" from an eternal perspective is more like having a child return home from college because they are not taking it seriously. Or if you are administering a test and you see a child just scribbling on the paper, you would say, "ok, the test is over." His specific reasons for ending any one persons mortal existence remain unknown to us. As I stated in an earlier post, Gods reasons for doing these things mostly have to do with keeping the world on track with His plans. The flood is a good example, it was so corrupt, even a good spirit would have struggled in that atmosphere, so He had to clean it up, for His purposes. And ... I agree with what Justice said, granting Eternal Life to all His children would be unmerciful. Besides the fact sending any unclean thing to the presence of Heavenly Father is impossible .... Like sending a 4 year old to Law School, it wouldn't mean anything to the 4 year old and it would be boring and painful to the 4 year old. It wouldn't be to the 4 year old's advantage to go to Law School at that age. Likewise God, like any father, would not give something to their child that they did not want or could be for their benefit. Eternal Life is of no benefit to those that do not want to be exactly like our Heavenly Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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