A Sin Question

[Dravin]

Dravin, if you read the verse in context of the previous verses reason tells you that Paul's use of the word "all" does not mean every atom or molecule that has ever existed. In verse 21 Paul writes "all who believe". That gives us an idea about who Paul is referring to. If you actually think that because Paul writes "all" he literally mean "everything including God" then show me evidence where your interpretation of the word "all" is correct.

I don't think it/he means that, but that isn't what the verse says. I can say, "I only meet jerks." and mean, "The overwhelming majority of the people I meet are jerks." However what I mean and what was actually said differ. Which is my point, we assign meaning beyond or different to what is actually stated.

Are you actually asking me to define what the English word all means? Do you disagree that all means all? Divorce it from any scriptures. If somebody asked you if all has inherent exceptions built into its meaning would you say it does? If I said, "All Canadians are evil." you can not turn around and say that I said, "All Canadians, except for the non-evil ones, are evil." You might however, if such was the case and you knew me well, say that I meant, "All Canadians, except for the non-evil ones, are evil." but that doesn't change what I said.

Main Entry: 1all

Pronunciation: \ˈȯl\

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English all, al, from Old English eall; akin to Old High German all all

Date: before 12th century

1 a : the whole amount, quantity, or extent of <needed all the courage they had> <sat up all night> b : as much as possible <spoke in all seriousness>

2 : every member or individual component of <all men will go> <all five children were present>

3 : the whole number or sum of <all the angles of a triangle are equal to two right angles>

4 : every <all manner of hardship>

5 : any whatever <beyond all doubt>

6 : nothing but : only: a : completely taken up with, given to, or absorbed by <became all attention> b : having or seeming to have (some physical feature) in conspicuous excess or prominence <all legs> c : paying full attention with <all ears>

7 dialect : used up : entirely consumed —used especially of food and drink

8 : being more than one person or thing <who all is coming> synonyms see whole

— all the : as much of…as : as much of a…as <all the home I ever had>

You want evidence that Paul said all (or rather that we attribute to him having said all) as opposed to having said, all except *insert choice of exceptions*?

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

You can corroborate that with your English bible of choice. What he meant when he said it is an entirely differen't matter and one you seem to be unable to divorce from what was actually said. But he never said "all have sinned, except those incapable of doing such (or excluding diety), and come short of the glory of God;". At least I've never seen that version or anything simular to it in any Bible I've read. What he may have meant is immaterial to whether he said it or not. He did not list any exceptions, he stated an absolute. The scripture says all regardless of what meaning you might wish to apply to it.

Edit: Amusingly enough, by maintaining that he didn't mean all when he said all you pretty much conceed my point.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Dravin

[Maureen]

What he may have meant is immaterial to whether he said it or not.

What he meant is material to the context of his message. The meaning of a word in context of the how it is used is important. By giving a word a "general" meaning all the time without looking at how it is used in the context of the statements is not reasonable.

Amusingly enough, by maintaining that he didn't mean all when he said all you pretty much conceed my point.

I did not maintain any such thing because we see the definition of the word "all" used in Paul's statements differently. You seem to think it should be read "literally" even if Paul is specific on how he is using it. A little reading comprehension goes along way.

[lattelady]

Snow,

Correction: I actually DO believe that I'm guilty of something related to original sin--as unfortunate as it is, Adam's sin cursed mankind (and womankind--I am a woman. So that includes me).

Romans 5:12-15;18

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--(For until the law sin was in the world , but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who is to come. BUt the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 18 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous."

As a side note to Dravin: even in this verse it says, "thus death spread to all men"--I take that literally, but I also understand that when it says men, it is in the sense of MANKIND (including man and women). You're trying to split hairs over the verse I quoted earlier "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God", and I take that literally as well but I understand that God, being who He is, doesn't fall short of His own glory.

Edited October 15, 2009 by lattelady

[Dravin]

What he meant is material to the context of his message. The meaning of a word in context of the how it is used is important. By giving a word a "general" meaning all the time without looking at how it is used in the context of the statements is not reasonable.

Nope which is why neither you nor I bind ourselvess to what the scripture literally reads (e.i., says), acknowleding that its meaning is different than what it literally says. So we interpert the verse to mean there are exceptions to all, but the verse does not say such.

I did not maintain any such thing because we see the definition of the word "all" used in Paul's statements differently.

Yes you do, all is an absolute, unless exceptions are included in the sentence (and they aren't in the verse in question), the word all means all, as in no exceptions. You maintain that there are exceptions, meaning that what Paul says, all, is different than what he means, there are exceptions if only one.

You seem to think it should be read "literally" even if Paul is specific on how he is using it. A little reading comprehension goes along way.

Yes, reading comprehension is important. For instance I don't think it should be read literally. Funny, I've expressed that point but it seems to keep evading you. Does Romans 3:23 use the term all? Does Romans 3:23 contain expressed, stated or in other words said exceptions to all? Despite the use of a universal term (all), do you believe that there are exceptions, that not literally all have sinned and fallen short?

If so how can you say it means what it says? As it says one thing (no exceptions) and you believe it means another (it does not apply to all) then to say you believe the scripture means what it says is falicious. It goes back to my previous examples, if I say "All people are jerks.", you can not say I mean, "Most people are jerks." and maintain that I said what I mean as such is not the case. The only way I said what I mean in that case is if I meant all people are jerks, any other meaning is different from what was said.

So:

1. Paul says all. All is universal, absolute, its use does not broke exceptions unless they are noted, none are noted in the scripture.

2. One believes Paul doesn't mean all.

3. Ergo one does not believe the scripture means what it says.

4. What that meaning is (as long as it differs from what was said) is irrelvant to this point (though not to understanding the scripture).

5. If a literal meaning makes sense or is reasonable is irrelevant to this point (again, for the record I don't think it is reasonable).

For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God", and I take that literally as well but I understand that God, being who He is, doesn't fall short of His own glory.

You just contradicted yourself.

Literal phrase 1: All have fallen short.

Literal phrase 2: God did not fall short.

Both can not be literally true, as taken literally all includes God. Its fine that you don't take the verse literally, I doubt anyone does. I wonder why the resistance to acknowleding that.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Dravin

[Misshalfway]

Latte, I really think a lot of what you have posted about this issue is very close if not exactly mormon doctrine. The only peice that parts us is the idea that we will not be punished for Adams transgression. We agree that we all fall short and that all mankind is lost and in desperate need of the Atonement. In fact I was just reading in the BofM with my kids and we read a passage from King Benjamin (prophet) as he was trying to teach the people that no matter what good they do they will ALWAYs be unprofitable servants. Another passage of our modern scriptures talks about how Moses (same OT dude) learns directly from God that man is nothing. But for the LDS we are taught that we are literally spirit children of God and if God can't create anything evil, it would stand to reason that the spirit parts of us are of divine heritage while the flesh parts of us are a result of the fall. Do you believe we each have a spirit? That we are spirits having a mortal experience?

[lattelady]

Dravin, I take the verse literally--I understand it to mean that "all' is in reference to the readers---people. All PEOPLE sin and fall short of GOD'S glory. Before that part, in verse 22, it uses the word "all" again: (I'll start in vs.21) "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." It says God's righteousness is revealed to all and on all who believe, and that it happens through their faith in Jesus. Was God including Himself there? Does ALL mean that He is revealing his righteousness to himself?--would that make ANY sense? He's talking about people...

[Dravin]

Dravin, I take the verse literally--I understand it to mean that "all' is in reference to the readers---people. All PEOPLE sin and fall short of GOD'S glory.

It does not say that. If you take the verse to mean that, then you do not take it to mean what it says. I think it is perfectly reasonable to not read the verse literally, but don't claim you are if you aren't.

Does ALL mean that He is revealing his righteousness to himself?

You keep on conflating what is meant and what is said, considering you yourself made that distinction earlier why the confusion? The verse says all it makes no exceptions. Is it reasonable to take it to mean he isn't talking about God? Certainly, but the verse does not state such, we are interpreting the scripture to mean such.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Dravin

[Maureen]

Dravin, all I can say is that the concept of reading in context has eluded you.

[pam]

I'm going to close this thread. After 156 posts I think both sides have had the opportunity to voice their opinion. We are just going in circles here. Thanks to everyone that participated.