Ether 15:31

[StallionMcBeastly]

31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.

I've had this verse thrown at me to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, claiming that such a scenario is impossible.

FAIR has a good article:

Book of Mormon/Anachronisms/Shiz struggles to breathe - FAIRMormon

What do you conclude?

(I realize this is really an insignificant verse, but it's fun to look into it:))

[BenRaines]

People say that bodies do not spasm after having head removed have never pulled or cut the head off of a chicken. They spasm, jump around and the beak of the head pulled off opens and closes for a while as if sucking in breath. Tell them to get a life.

Ben Raines

[StallionMcBeastly]

lol good post.

I explained that yes, when the brain stem is disconnected from the brain the body can still move.

Then they go to say that they weren't arguing that, but they argue the point that a body without a head cannot breath.

They latch on to ONE small verse, to try to discount the WHOLE book.

Do they think a man living in the belly of a whale is more plausible?

[Seminarysnoozer]

verse says he struggled for breath, not that he took a breath.

[StallionMcBeastly]

Good point

[Justice]

It could have been his head he was looking at that caused him to have the impression he was struggling for breath. The way it is written it sounds as if the body struggled for breath. But, lately, when I read the Book of Mormon I've been able to look past the obvious and look for what the intention may have been. When I read that verse, it seems to me he may not have been saying the body struggled for breath, but the head.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You have to also realize that the Book of Mormon is a translation from a different language. The way things are said in one language can be totally different in another and may even sound silly in another. Let me give you one example: If I said the TV doesn't work. You wouldn't think that I was saying the TV doesn't labor or have a job. You would immediately understand that what I was trying to say is that the TV doesn't function. And if you were trying to say that in Portuguese, the direct translation from portuguese to English would be "the TV doesn't give" because in Portuguese the verb "to give" is another way of saying something doesn't function.

To attempt to take a breath may have been the way to say in the original language that the person looked like they took a long time to die. We don't know. That is why there are a lot of verses in the scriptures that say something to the effect of; "in other words" like when it says, "I have dreamed a dream, or in other words, I have seen a vision."

[Just_A_Guy]

Wasn't there a French scientist who went to the guillotine and beforehand told an assistant to watch how many times he blinked after his head was severed, and he blinked once a second for twenty seconds or so?

[juxtaposed]

i have also heard that the 'head' that was cut off was only a portion, and that the lower half that was attached sputtered a bit. gruesome topic. lol

[Moksha]

i have also heard that the 'head' that was cut off was only a portion, and that the lower half that was attached sputtered a bit. gruesome topic. lol

Where did this detail come from.

This raising up by Shiz's hands and struggling for breath, sounds more plausible than a talking donkey.

[juxtaposed]

i really don't have the slightest clue. just another random bit of info i've collected

[pam]

Then why don't we keep the gruesome details that have nothing to back them up with out of the conversation.

The subject has to do with how to respond to a claim that uses a scripture in the Book of Mormon to prove it's fallacy.

[juxtaposed]

because the details are what is at question. hence the discussing thereof

[pam]

However, you are embellishing details that don't exist. All based on supposed hearsay. Again...your little details do not answer the question of the OP.

[juxtaposed]

funny that others did similar yet you take the effort to discuss mine only. seems like a great many posts here have a lot of conjecture and opinion included. you have a lot of work on your hands if you want to point all those out too.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't see what the problem is with this scripture. If anything it points towards the veracity of the Book of Mormon. How would a farm boy in the early 1800s know that there are complex motor circuits in the spinal cord that drive reflexic movements, like jerking when you touch something hot or step on something sharp or catch your breath when you jump in cold water. How would he know of the complex neuroanatomy, that dopamanergic neurons from the motor circuits of the brain suppress those spinal cord reflexes and when let loose suddenly they act on their own, like a headless chicken (well that part he would know), the same phenomenon that causes restless leg syndrome. ... and that there are accessory muscles of breathing in the chest that are suddenly let loose when there is lack of dopamanergic inhibition. ... I don't see what the problem is with this scripture anyways, but even then we don't know if that was a figure of speech or an actual event or a commonly used phrase to describe someone who is taking a long time to die. It's insignificant.

[StallionMcBeastly]

I don't see what the problem is with this scripture. If anything it points towards the veracity of the Book of Mormon. How would a farm boy in the early 1800s know that there are complex motor circuits in the spinal cord that drive reflexic movements, like jerking when you touch something hot or step on something sharp or catch your breath when you jump in cold water. How would he know of the complex neuroanatomy, that dopamanergic neurons from the motor circuits of the brain suppress those spinal cord reflexes and when let loose suddenly they act on their own, like a headless chicken (well that part he would know), the same phenomenon that causes restless leg syndrome. ... and that there are accessory muscles of breathing in the chest that are suddenly let loose when there is lack of dopamanergic inhibition. ... I don't see what the problem is with this scripture anyways, but even then we don't know if that was a figure of speech or an actual event or a commonly used phrase to describe someone who is taking a long time to die. It's insignificant.

I agree!

I don't have any problem with the scripture, it certainly has no effect upon me. It's such a small insignificant verse yet for people who want to discredit the Book of Mormon they will latch onto ANYTHING they can get to discredit it. They treat it as if this one verse SO OBVIOUSLY proves the Book to be a work of fiction that you're an absolute fool if you don't believe it to be the word of God.

What I don't understand in their thought process is, is if Joseph Smith was trying to dupe everyone into believe his book, why would he include this verse? Because, to them, it's so obviously proves it's fiction?

[Seminarysnoozer]

If I had a friend that said that this was obvious proof that the work is fiction, then I would say its time to move on. I wouldn't waste my time discussing the gospel with people that are not humble enough to receive the truth. Just be their friend and a good example, then maybe they will soften their hearts. These are the people Jesus talks about "because, they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." ... its ok to move on without understanding why their hearts are hardened.

[StallionMcBeastly]

If I had a friend that said that this was obvious proof that the work is fiction, then I would say its time to move on. I wouldn't waste my time discussing the gospel with people that are not humble enough to receive the truth. Just be their friend and a good example, then maybe they will soften their hearts. These are the people Jesus talks about "because, they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." ... its ok to move on without understanding why their hearts are hardened.

I don't know the people. You won't be surprised to find they are members of CARM message board! lol.

Yeah, I don't waste my time arguing. Occasionally I'll go there and make a few comments, but their mindset isn't one that can produce respectable conversation it's one of "you're a fool for believing what you do and here's why".

It's seems so misguided to focus on one small verse and forget about the overall message of the book! I could pull one verse from the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, PoGP - from any of them that strikes me as odd.... but when you discount the whole message because one verse? That's not being fair to yourself.

[juxtaposed]

this argument to me is one of the weakest i have ever heard in an effort to 'disprove' the bom. it is such a non issue to me, but for some it is irrefutable proof i guess.

[StallionMcBeastly]

this argument to me is one of the weakest i have ever heard in an effort to 'disprove' the bom. it is such a non issue to me, but for some it is irrefutable proof i guess.

For those who want nothing more to disbelieve it, it is proof. Yes.