Rider Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Wow, Rider,So what this really comes down to is that you don't believe LDS people to be christian, right?!?!Wow, it's nice to finally hear what you've been implicating all along. Thanks for sharing! All this beating around the bush, the cat and mouse game, the cornering, etc., etc., and this all comes down to your belief that we are not christian. LOLSo what else is new? As so many have said, we are well aware of all the people who disbelieve our christianity......Any other points?!What have I said that makes you think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Everything you've written on this subject points to that. If you want me to, I can pick this apart thread by thread to supports this.....How many references/quotes do you want from this topic? Why is it so difficult for you to openly admit this?! How easy for you to point your fingers at those of us who are LDS, but not consider the three pointing back at you! This strikes me as comical. Please tell what you do believe, if this is not it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Rider, I have been going through all your threads. What I understand your argument to be, is how can two conflicting religions who claim Christ both be truly christian? Isn't this what you're postulating? That one has to be in error? That one is wrong while the other is correct? And between your religion and ours, you don't believe we're the correct one; hence, we are not christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Everything you've written on this subject points to that. If you want me to, I can pick this apart thread by thread to supports this.....How many references/quotes do you want from this topic?Why is it so difficult for you to openly admit this?! How easy for you to point your fingers at those of us who are LDS, but not consider the three pointing back at you! This strikes me as comical.Please tell what you do believe, if this is not it.....My point with this thread is discuss the question of whether or not LDS and Protestants can both be Christian. It was never meant to prove LDS aren't Christian, or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Rider, I have been going through all your threads. What I understand your argument to be, is how can two conflicting religions who claim Christ both be truly christian? Isn't this what you're postulating? That one has to be in error? That one is wrong while the other is correct? And between your religion and ours, you don't believe we're the correct one; hence, we are not christian?Yes, I believe that. But the thread is only about the bolded part, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Well, I think you've done quite a detailed work here in proving that..... And you're right, with conflicting beliefs, either one is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong. Would you agree? You certainly have put a lot of effort into this thread.....is there something about this that bothers you? In other words, why is this so important to you that you would go at length to bring this point out? Is there something else you are trying to bring out other than the above point? I'm surprised, you say that the thread is only about the part you bolded out of my quote......the surprise is that this whole thread has been about who qualifies as a christian. Of course, if you believe we're in error, given all that you've said here, wouldn't that mean we're not christian? or still are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Well, I think you've done quite a detailed work here in proving that.....And you're right, with conflicting beliefs, either one is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong. Would you agree?Yes, I agree. So if one group is wrong about how to follow Christ, what are they following? If they're not follow Christ, are they still ChristianYou certainly have put a lot of effort into this thread.....is there something about this that bothers you? In other words, why is this so important to you that you would go at length to bring this point out? Is there something else you are trying to bring out other than the above point?There are a variety of reasons. For one, I recently graduated college with a journalism degree and I enjoy writing about religious topics. Talking about stuff like this is a good way to get a better idea of what Mormons believe and how they think. Plus, I like debates anyway.I'm surprised, you say that the thread is only about the part you bolded out of my quote......the surprise is that this whole thread has been about who qualifies as a christian. Of course, if you believe we're in error, given all that you've said here, wouldn't that mean we're not christian? or still are?I would word it more like 'the thread is about how broad the term Christian is.' If I wanted to argue Mormons aren't Christian, I would quote various Bible verses and show why I believe LDS doctrine contradicts them. But I haven't done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorman Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Well, I believe you have your answer from most of us then. The term Christian refers to those who strive to be followers of Christ. We may not agree on the exact best way to do it, the specifics of what has to be done to accomplish the task, but, we all strive to follow him in our own way. Hence, we are Followers of Christ. You can inject all the contradictions, objections, theories, conspiracies, or any other specifics you wish to use. But, I have stated why we believe we are all Christians. The answer is, frankly, that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Rider-You can run in this circle all you want without getting answers. Everything in this conversation- everything- depends on where a person stands before God, and the situation they were given in this life. To understand why the LDS believe that non-Mormons can still be followers of Christ without being Mormon requires a deeper understanding of the Atonement of Christ, the nature of God, and more complex LDS doctrine. The simple answer is that Christ honors all honest seekers of truth, regardless of their personal situations.Man is an eternal being, of the same divine species of God. We have all fallen short through weakness and sin, but through Christ's atonement we can be perfected and become co-inheritors with Christ, who will receive all that the Father has. Through faith in Christ, we can become like him and be returned to holy righteousness. That is the Gospel; that is the path and the doctrine that Christ taught.I'm not inclined to answer your examples where others believe my faith teaches things contrary to the Bible, other than a terse "we'll see who is right at the judgment bar of God". On that day, my hope is that they and I will be on the right hand of Christ, and not on His left. I do not dictate others' actions, however- I am the captain of my own soul, and only mine.Consider these questions: is a man attempts to serve his master with all diligence, but through the servant's own weakness and the wekness of others, does not receive and follow all of his master's instructions, is he therefore no longer a servant of his master? Will a perfect and merciful master disown the servant who seeks to do the master's will- or will a perfect and merciful master understand the situation and the weakness of the servant and show patience and charity? Will the master cast the servant off, not paying the servant for his work, until the servant is able to overcome his own weaknesses? If the master does not pay the servant, how will the servant survive to become more perfect at following the master's commands?If you say that a perfect and merciful master will cast out an obedient yet imperfect servant, then you say that Christ does not honor those who seek to do His will but do it imperfectly. If you say that the perfect and merciful master will show patience to the servant, then you say that Christ honors those who honor Him as well as they can- no matter their religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 I feel I understand a little bit better your come from with this..... I appreciate that you haven't argued whether or not LDS are christian, with Bible verses and all. Simply because we could what LDS at times term "Bible Bashing" all the day long. A lot of people (mostly LDS) believe the Bible supports our claim the Christ's church had to be restored....that the Bible prophesied of this. I started reading Elder Wirthlin's talk that you referenced.....I can see where this would bring you to start this thread, especially if you enjoy debate, LOL......I have thought about this and am strongly tempted to contact lds.org to explain this thread there and ask for Elder Wirthlin to address this himself.....I may just do so......although I don't know if you are truly interested in finding out whether or not the LDS church is all it claims to be, or if you have already chosen your beliefs and this is all about debating the point...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Elder Wirthlin won't be able to address this. He passed away a few months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Well, I believe you have your answer from most of us then. The term Christian refers to those who strive to be followers of Christ. We may not agree on the exact best way to do it, the specifics of what has to be done to accomplish the task, but, we all strive to follow him in our own way. Hence, we are Followers of Christ. You can inject all the contradictions, objections, theories, conspiracies, or any other specifics you wish to use. But, I have stated why we believe we are all Christians. The answer is, frankly, that simple.Why does striving to following Christ equal following Christ? Striving isn't the same as doing. If you're striving to do something, you may or may not actually do it.I started reading Elder Wirthlin's talk that you referenced.....I can see where this would bring you to start this thread, especially if you enjoy debate, LOL......I have thought about this and am strongly tempted to contact lds.org to explain this thread there and ask for Elder Wirthlin to address this himself.....I may just do so......although I don't know if you are truly interested in finding out whether or not the LDS church is all it claims to be, or if you have already chosen your beliefs and this is all about debating the point......Even if Wirthlin can't respond, I would still love to hear what someone else from the church has to say about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorman Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Why does striving to following Christ equal following Christ? Striving isn't the same as doing. If you're striving to do something, you may or may not actually do it.Even if Wirthlin can't respond, I would still love to hear what someone else from the church has to say about this.Because, we are not perfect and we can not perfectly following him. :) We are all STRIVING to follow him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Even if Wirthlin can't respond, I would still love to hear what someone else from the church has to say about this. To be honest, the only response if a response is received, would probably be to inquire of local leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Because, we are not perfect and we can not perfectly following him. :) We are all STRIVING to follow him.I'm not talking about being perfect. There's no way we could completely stop sinning. I'm talking about accurately following Christ. If you're accurately following Him, you may not be perfect, but at least you're going in the right direction. However, if you're not accurately following Him, then you're not heading in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Why not go to mormon.org. You can actually chat live with someone and ask questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 I'm not talking about being perfect. There's no way we could completely stop sinning. I'm talking about accurately following Christ. If you're accurately following Him, you may not be perfect, but at least you're going in the right direction. However, if you're not accurately following Him, then you're not heading in the right direction. Rider, I believe this leads into self accountability.....I may sound like a broken record with this, but who are we to decide for another if their accurately following/heading in the right direction?I understand/believe/strongly feel you don't believe Mormonism to be "the right direction." I respect your right/choice to feel that way. However, I know "mormonism" is my right path, I have felt this confirmed to me strongly by the Holy Spirit......yet it's not mine to tell you that you have to do the same. Are you concerned we are all headed in the wrong direction? One of the great commandments in our beliefs is to pray "always." Can you believe in our sincerity enough to trust that we are in God's hands, and that He hears and answers our prayers, as well as yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 There are a variety of reasons. For one, I recently graduated college with a journalism degree and I enjoy writing about religious topics. Talking about stuff like this is a good way to get a better idea of what Mormons believe and how they think. Plus, I like debates anyway.Yeah. Well, just so you know, circular thinking is not well regarded in journalistic writings. Most editors will insist you make a valid point that can be backed up by facts within the first 1000 words or so in an article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Why does striving to following Christ equal following Christ? Striving isn't the same as doing. If you're striving to do something, you may or may not actually do it.Even if Wirthlin can't respond, I would still love to hear what someone else from the church has to say about this.What, after 134 responses you don't believe us? Then why are you wasting the bandwidth to go through this charade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 · Hidden Hidden What, after 134 responses you don't believe us? Then why are you wasting the bandwidth to go through this charade? Whoa, John Doe!Would you please sheathe you claws?! Link to comment
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 · Hidden Hidden What, after 134 responses you don't believe us? Then why are you wasting the bandwidth to go through this charade? John Doe,Why be so harsh? Your response smacks of flippancy and disregard for Rider's point of view.....After reading Elder Wirthlin's talk, I'm inclined to hear Rider out.... Link to comment
Rider Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Rider, I believe this leads into self accountability.....I may sound like a broken record with this, but who are we to decide for another if their accurately following/heading in the right direction?You don't have to decide. You believe you're heading in the right direction. Ask someone what they believe about some the basics of following Christ. If they're heading in a different direction then you, then it must be wrong. I understand/believe/strongly feel you don't believe Mormonism to be "the right direction." I respect your right/choice to feel that way. However, I know "mormonism" is my right path, I have felt this confirmed to me strongly by the Holy Spirit......yet it's not mine to tell you that you have to do the same.I'm curious, why did you call Mormonism "my right path?" Do you believe it's THE right path, or do you believe it's a path for some people and not for others?Are you concerned we are all headed in the wrong direction? One of the great commandments in our beliefs is to pray "always." Can you believe in our sincerity enough to trust that we are in God's hands, and that He hears and answers our prayers, as well as yours?I'm concerned people in all faiths contrary to mine are headed in the wrong direction, and we also believe strongly in prayer. But that doesn't mean we should sit back and hope those other people find the right path. Christ commanded us to go into all nations, not pray that they'll get it right.What, after 134 responses you don't believe us? Then why are you wasting the bandwidth to go through this charade?I don't go to forums to just see a few responses to my questions. I go to have a discussion, to get a better idea of how you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 You don't have to decide. You believe you're heading in the right direction. Ask someone what they believe about some the basics of following Christ. If they're heading in a different direction then you, then it must be wrong. Thank you.... I'm curious, why did you call Mormonism "my right path?" Do you believe it's THE right path, or do you believe it's a path for some people and not for others?I believe strongly in people's agency......perhaps I'm tiptoeing around the issue.....Yes, I do believe the Church of Jesus Christ is the right path in the sense that I do believe what it teaches, that it does require the covenant of baptism amongst other covenants, and then living true to those covenants, to be able to enter into God's presence in the next life.I'm concerned people in all faiths contrary to mine are headed in the wrong direction, and we also believe strongly in prayer. But that doesn't mean we should sit back and hope those other people find the right path. Christ commanded us to go into all nations, not pray that they'll get it right.Yes, we too strongly believe in proselytizing the gospel message. My concern is something I have seen all too often happen. Something like the terrorist groups believe to do, or what happened in the crusades. That we presume to force anyone to believe/act/worship as we do. This is just dead wrong. I do strongly believe the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS to be everything it claims to be. But I don't believe in making anyone else hear that or believe it if they don't want to. Like I said in a prior thread, I offer to share it or if they invite me to, I will..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Yes, we too strongly believe in proselytizing the gospel message. My concern is something I have seen all too often happen. Something like the terrorist groups believe to do, or what happened in the crusades. That we presume to force anyone to believe/act/worship as we do. This is just dead wrong. I do strongly believe the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS to be everything it claims to be. But I don't believe in making anyone else hear that or believe it if they don't want to. Like I said in a prior thread, I offer to share it or if they invite me to, I will.....I think it's a huge leap to compare aggressive proselytizing, like coming out and telling someone you believe they're not following Christ, to the crusades. It may be offensive and over the line at times, but it doesn't force anyone to do anything. I don't see how it could interfere with anyone's agency or freewill. We strongly believe any religious decision must must be a personal choice, or it's probably not a real choice. For instance, I don't believe parents should force their teenagers to go to church. They're old enough to make a religious decision and forcing them to go to church might make them hate church later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 I think it's a huge leap to compare aggressive proselytizing, like coming out and telling someone you believe they're not following Christ, to the crusades. It may be offensive and over the line at times, but it doesn't force anyone to do anything. I don't see how it could interfere with anyone's agency or freewill. Hmmm, good point.....I admit, I'm a sucker for "acceptance" and "positive feedback" from others around me. Frankly, I'm hypersensitive to offending others by being aggressive, especially when it comes to talking about my beliefs in God. So often, when I've been honest about my experiences, I've met with ridicule or mockery or negation.....especially as a missionary. So much so that I'd rather not tell, at least in depth, my personal beliefs if it invites this to happen......I'm not saying this is "correct," just my personal weakness.....Also, if a person doesn't respect/appreciate what I have to share, why tell them?We strongly believe any religious decision must must be a personal choice, or it's probably not a real choice. For instance, I don't believe parents should force their teenagers to go to church. They're old enough to make a religious decision and forcing them to go to church might make them hate church later on. I certainly agree with you on this. I think that's what I've been trying to say all along, that it is a personal choice.One of my closest friends renounced mormonism and became a "mainstream" christian. Honestly, it broke my heart....I mourned it for awhile. However, we are still close friends. We respect each others' beliefs and listen to each other's experiences, including the spiritual. I love her dearly. While I talk often of God's communications with me, I also listen to her experiences with Him as well......If you are interested in finding out more about our beliefs on the afterlife and how we are judged, I would suggest you read some of the sections in our Doctrine and Covenants. (D&C 76) Also, another section in that book goes over how one is to present the truth to another. (D&C 121:35-46) These passages would be more clear than anything written on this thread about our beliefs on one's standing with God..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts