When You Post, Do You Post With Love?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Maureen+Sep 29 2005, 06:12 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 29 2005, 04:55 PM

As usual you missed it... I said they needed to understand the LDS point of view....in a straight talking way... it only enhances the agency when truth is clearly spoken...

I think I missed it because you never wrote it. This is what you said:

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 29 2005, 03:51 PM

You know ... this is one of those things I have always had difficulty understanding... that people equate God's love with tenderness... and indulgence... and stuff like that...

Where is that tenderness in this life?? Where was His tenderness in the cleansing of the temple...  or the calling the Pharasees and Saducees hypocrites and liers....??

I just want to know... cause I just don't see what you are seeing Heather...

I believe the kindest... (eternally speaking) thing I can do is set people straight... as straight forward as possible... because allowing them to think that it is okay to think and believe any way they choose.... (marking they are stating these beliefs on an LDS forum) is wrong.... ... there are young people lurking here... can they be allowed to think these statements of non belief and why.... are okay?

I guess what I am trying to say here is.... it isn't just the post I am responding for.... it is for all those peepers lurking in....

I don't see anywhere in your words where you said anything about understanding the LDS POV. All I see is not allowing them to think that it is okay to think and believe any way they choose.... Is there some hidden code I'm missing?

M.

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The idea is there if you would open you closed mind...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather+Sep 29 2005, 06:01 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 29 2005, 05:56 PM

So what you are saying is... that if false doctrine is being put out on this forum... no one unless it is their bishop who doesn't post here... is allowed to correct that???

You are so wrong Heather...

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<!--QuoteBegin-Heather@Sep 29 2005, 05:25 PM

So you're saying it's impossible to tell someone that they are wrong using empathy and understanding?   ...

The point I am trying to make is not that the message is wrong.  The message is completely right in my eyes.  It's the way the message is given, and I can tell the message was not given the best way it could've been, because of the anger in which it was received.

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Do you do face lifts also? (Just kidding!) I can't become you Heather... though I would love to... cause I am sure you are a much better person than me...as well as better looking...

If you can't not judge me as being condeming and judgmental...all my worts and all... then I guess I can't post here......

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 29 2005, 05:02 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Heather@Sep 29 2005, 05:25 PM

So you're saying it's impossible to tell someone that they are wrong using empathy and understanding?  

I will tell you this, when my parents said, "No, you're wrong!" I went right out and did it. :)  When they gave me guidance with love ("We love you. We don't want you to be hurt...") I was much more apt to listen.  I believe in the Love and Logic approach to child raising. Give children a lot of choices when they're little, choices which you can live with, and allow them to take responsibility for those choices.  So when they're 16 and you no longer have control, they will already have the experience to and the ability to make choices which will make them happy. (I won't go into this anymore, other than to say they're the best child raising books I've ever read.)

I said my bishop or anyone else above me.  No, I don't believe you personally have the gift of prophecy to call me to repentance.  I don't believe I have that right to call anyone here to repentance either.  The only rights I have are what I have been taught.  To teach by example--to allow others their free agency--to love one another.  I'm the type of personality if someone tells me I'm wrong, I will wave them along and find someone else who I feel can at least try and show some compassion and understanding for how I feel. 

Maybe that's just me.  Has anyone ever felt compelled to change because someone said point blank, "You're wrong"?

The point I am trying to make is not that the message is wrong.  The message is completely right in my eyes.  It's the way the message is given, and I can tell the message was not given the best way it could've been, because of the anger in which it was received.

We all have our different styles... of approach... and I really hate yours some days you sound so wishy washy and confused... because you are trying to present not only your side... but everyone elses... but I don't go around telling your that.... trying to make you get more like me...

You're kidding right? Of all the people on this message board Heather has to be one of the more perceptive, straightforward posters. She is concise and not at all conflicting. I'm absolutely baffled that you would say that.

what you do doesn't work for me... in fact I find it quite offensive to an intellilgent mind... who can see what you are doing...

I can see clearly what Heather is trying to say. She is a good communicator, I understand her completely.

She is saying: share your beliefs, teach what you know and above all play nice. How hard is that to understand?

M.

[Heather]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 29 2005, 05:56 PM

So what you are saying is... that if false doctrine is being put out on this forum... no one unless it is their bishop who doesn't post here... is allowed to correct that???

You are so wrong Heather...

←

How this could've been posted with love and understanding:

So what you are saying is... that if false doctrine is being put out on this forum... no one unless it is their bishop who doesn't post here... is allowed to correct that??? Maybe I misunderstood you, but I don't like the idea of having false doctrine posted on an LDS message board and having members of the board get away with it, simply because there isn't anyone who posts here that is allowed to judge them.

My response would be: Of course false doctrine should be deleted. My point is not to condemn those who believe differently than we do. My point is not to become a judge and ruler over everyone who grazes the board. I feel it is my responsibility to teach by example, to teach with love and compassion, as I believe the Savior would have me do. Please post what you believe, and please take consideration for others and their feelings.

I'm not saying that your beliefs are wrong. All I am saying is that feelings get hurt, and the message of truth isn't being received because it is hindered by contention in the manner it is stated. And that truly is very sad, because I believe it is important to have the truth stated. If you believe I'm wrong, then that's fine. There really isn't anything more I can do about that. I'm only attempting to make the board more harmonious, but it seems all I am doing is making it worse.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 29 2005, 05:21 PM

The idea is there if you would open you closed mind...

Has it ever occured to you Please that you are not a great communicator? There, now that is a judgement from me about you're communicating skills. Am I wrong?

M.

[Heather]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 29 2005, 06:02 PM

I don't claim to have any authority "over" you.  I simply claim to have the authority, or the "power", or the "ability", to know the truth and share what I know with others.

Perhaps it would help you to think a bit more about what "authority" really is.

←

I never said that you don't have the authority to know the truth and to state it. I said that I don't believe you have the authority to judge me. So it looks like we agree. You have the right to state what you know is true, in the manner you want. Everyone has that right. And it is just as important to me as it is to you that the truth be shared and spread through out the world. But it's very sad to me when I see the truth shared with condemnation and judgmental words, because I feel the only words that are heard are the words of passing judgment, and not the words of truth. I truly want you to know Ray that I'm not targeting you, although I'm sure it feels that way. I see the contention in many posts by many different users, and this the best way I can think of try to make the board better for everyone.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather+Sep 29 2005, 06:01 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 29 2005, 05:56 PM

So what you are saying is... that if false doctrine is being put out on this forum... no one unless it is their bishop who doesn't post here... is allowed to correct that???

You are so wrong Heather...

←

<!--QuoteBegin-Heather@Sep 29 2005, 05:25 PM

So you're saying it's impossible to tell someone that they are wrong using empathy and understanding?   ...

The point I am trying to make is not that the message is wrong.  The message is completely right in my eyes.  It's the way the message is given, and I can tell the message was not given the best way it could've been, because of the anger in which it was received.

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hmmm?

[pushka]

Dear, dear, dear...it seems that we will have to go round and round in circles, and just keep getting nowhere in this little dispute, doesn't it?

SF, Maureen and Heather...I salute you for your comments on this thread...

Please and Ray, I am very sorry that you still feel the need to post in the way in which you do, which Heather so correctly pointed out, prevents whatever truth in your messages from being heard, because your arrogance just overshadows everything else...

I hope that this site overcomes this problem, and that eventually EVERYONE who posts here will do so in the same manner in which they would speak to their parents...with respect and compassion.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by pushka@Sep 29 2005, 07:30 PM

Dear, dear, dear...it seems that we will have to go round and round in circles, and just keep getting nowhere in this little dispute, doesn't it?

SF, Maureen and Heather...I salute you for your comments on this thread...

Please and Ray, I am very sorry that you still feel the need to post in the way in which you do, which Heather so correctly pointed out, prevents whatever truth in your messages from being heard, because your arrogance just overshadows everything else...

I hope that this site overcomes this problem, and that eventually EVERYONE who posts here will do so in the same manner in which they would speak to their parents...with respect and compassion.

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So telling me and Ray that we have arragance... isn't condemning and judgmental... and because you said it... it is okay?

[pushka]

Hehehe...I just knew that was gonna wind you up!!! Sorry!!!

[begood2]

I'm not saying that your beliefs are wrong. All I am saying is that feelings get hurt, and the message of truth isn't being received because it is hindered by contention in the manner it is stated. And that truly is very sad, because I believe it is important to have the truth stated. If you believe I'm wrong, then that's fine. There really isn't anything more I can do about that. I'm only attempting to make the board more harmonious, but it seems all I am doing is making it worse.

Heather,

IMO ... I think that your idea is a good one. :) If the real purpose of the post is to convey the message of truth ... then why not present it in a less confrontational manner and not risk losing the essence of the post because of hurt feelings.

[shanstress70]

A message of what you guys perceive to be true, can be shared in a nice way. Is it not your duty as Latter Day Saints to get others to see what you believe is the truth?

I will tell you that if I were an investigator visiting this board, and I saw some of Ray's or Please's posts, I'd close the window without looking back. There would be no way I would keep reading, because I would know that I would not be interested in a religion in which people talk to each other this way.

However, I would think, "Wow, that SF, Heather, Lindy, etc. sure seem like nice people. I think I'll stay a while and see what exactly they believe."

I'm not picking favorites here, because I like you Please, and Ray, I know you mean well and only mean to help people here. But it's about delivery as well as content.

I think that someone's message of what they perceive to be true will still get through - even if done in a nice and respectful way... in fact, that may be the only way. Just MHO!

[Ray]

For clarity's sake, please quote one of my posts in which I was being judgmental or offensive, because at this point I think you're only talking about instances where I have stated that [something] is wrong, because God or one of His prophets has said that [something] is wrong, and that I also know it is wrong, because I also know God has said it is wrong.

And honestly, I don't see how it is wrong for me to state that I know that God has said that something is wrong.

And btw, I only say that something is flat out "Wrong" when it appears to me that all of my patient efforts to try to help people understand the truth have failed.

And furthermore, I think many of you are trying to make me responsible for you or other people who get upset when you or they are told you are they are wrong. And I do not see how it is right to try to make me responsible for the actions of other people!

And one more idea you may not have thought about, Heather, is that a lot of the people who become upset are people who once heard the gospel and rejected it, so it isn't as if they haven't heard all of what we are telling them before. They simply don't want to hear the truth again, and they don't want other people to hear the truth either.

For instance, we have Jason, who was once a missionary and endowed in the temple, who has now become blatantly and openly "against" the Church.

And then we have shanstress, who is also now "against" the Church.

And then we have pushka, who is also "against" the Church.

And then we have Disruptive, who is becoming more and more "against" the Church.

Or in other words, we're not talking to people who are sincerely interested in discovering the truth of the Church, but instead we are talking to people who have openly declared rebellion against the Church, and therefore we speak more openly against "them" because "they" are openly against the Church!!!

Or in other words, if you expect peace and love to prevail among people who are decidedly "against" each other, then you obviously have failed to see that we are at WAR!!!

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 10:55 AM

For clarity's sake, please quote one of my posts in which I was being judgmental or offensive, because at this point I think you're only talking about instances where I have stated that [something] is wrong, because God or one of His prophets has said that [something] is wrong, and that I also know it is wrong, because I also know God has said it is wrong. 

And honestly, I don't see how it is wrong for me to state that I know that God has said that something is wrong.

And btw, I only say that something is flat our "Wrong" when it appears to me that all of my patient efforts to try to help people understand the truth have failed.

And furthermore, I think many of you are trying to make me responsible for you or other people who get upset when you or they are told you are they are wrong.  And I do not see how it is right to try to make me responsible for the actions or outrages of other people!

And one more idea you may not have thought about, Heather, is that a lot of the people who become upset are people who once heard the gospel and rejected it, so it isn't as if they haven't heard all of what we are telling them before.  They simply don't want to hear the truth again, and they don't want other people to hear the truth either.

For instance, we have Jason, who was once a missionary and endowed in the temple, who has now become blatantly and openly "against" the Church.

And then we have shanstress, who is also now "against" the Church.

And then we have pushka, who is also "against" the Church.

And then we have Disruptive, who is becoming more and more "against" the Church.

Or in other words, we're not talking to people who are sincerely interested in discovering the truth of the Church, but instead we are talking to people who have openly declared rebellion against the Church, and therefore we speak more openly against "them" because "they" are openly against the Church!!!

Or in other words, if you expect peace and love to prevail among people who are decidedly "against" each other, then you obviously have failed to see that we are at WAR!!!

←

It is true....

It is the scripture story found in Nephi... all over again...

1 Ne. 16: 2

2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

Also...

1 Ne. 15: 8-9

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 11:55 AM

For clarity's sake, please quote one of my posts in which I was being judgmental or offensive, because at this point I think you're only talking about instances where I have stated that [something] is wrong, because God or one of His prophets has said that [something] is wrong, and that I also know it is wrong, because I also know God has said it is wrong. 

And honestly, I don't see how it is wrong for me to state that I know that God has said that something is wrong.

And btw, I only say that something is flat out "Wrong" when it appears to me that all of my patient efforts to try to help people understand the truth have failed.

And furthermore, I think many of you are trying to make me responsible for you or other people who get upset when you or they are told you are they are wrong.  And I do not see how it is right to try to make me responsible for the actions of other people!

And one more idea you may not have thought about, Heather, is that a lot of the people who become upset are people who once heard the gospel and rejected it, so it isn't as if they haven't heard all of what we are telling them before.  They simply don't want to hear the truth  again, and they don't want other people to hear the truth either.

For instance, we have Jason, who was once a missionary and endowed in the temple, who has now become blatantly and openly "against" the Church.

And then we have shanstress, who is also now "against" the Church.

And then we have pushka, who is also "against" the Church.

And then we have Disruptive, who is becoming more and more "against" the Church.

Or in other words, we're not talking to people who are sincerely interested in discovering the truth of the Church, but instead we are talking to people who have openly declared rebellion against the Church, and therefore we speak more openly against "them" because "they" are openly against the Church!!!

Or in other words, if you expect peace and love to prevail among people who are decidedly "against" each other, then you obviously have failed to see that we are at WAR!!!

←

Ray, you are wrong. I'm not 'against' the church. I simply do not believe it is true. I realize that some believe it is true, and actually, I believe could possibly be correct. I just don't THINK they are. I have friends and family who are LDS, and it works for them and that's great. I do not try to 'win them over' to my side of the 'war'. I don't see it as a war. I see it as a religion... a choice. I'm glad you are happy in your church, and I hope you never leave. Just like I hope my IL's never leave, because if they did, they would be heartbroken. It is great for them. It is great for you.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress

Ray, you are wrong. I'm not "against" the church. I simply do not believe it is true.

If I'm wrong about this, then I'll truly be happy to discover that I am wrong about this, but judging from many of the things you have said, I'm a little hestitant to believe that you truly are not "against" us. Personally, I think you just do not see how some of the things you have said and continue to say show that you truly are against the Church.

But again, if I'm wrong, once I see that I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit that I was wrong.

See there? I have no problem with being told I am wrong. And that still doesn't mean that I have to accept what someone else says as the truth, even though they may truly believe it is true.

[shanstress70]

Ray, YOU ARE WRONG! I'm not against the church. If you're speaking of the thread where I'm discussing why I left the LDS church, please remember that Setheus asked me to share, I said no, then he asked again, with SF asking as well.

If you'd like, I will ask Heather to move it to the Open forum... or maybe you have the rights to do.

I truly am NOT against the LDS religion!

I'm questioning ALL religion at this point, although I'm not AGAINST any of it.

I'm actually thinking seriously about going to a Christian church once again to just see if I can make myself believe. I WANT to be a Christian, honestly. I just can't stop questioning everything. I think I just need to stop trying to be so logical about it... you can't really do that with God.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 09:55 AM

For clarity's sake, please quote one of my posts in which I was being judgmental or offensive, because at this point I think you're only talking about instances where I have stated that [something] is wrong, because God or one of His prophets has said that [something] is wrong, and that I also know it is wrong, because I also know God has said it is wrong.

Wow, you made this easy Ray. Here are two statements that are judgemental opinions of 2 posters on this board by you:

And then we have shanstress, who is also now "against" the Church.

And then we have pushka, who is also "against" the Church.

Just because someone affiliated themselves with the LDS church in the past and then chose a different religious or non-religious path in the future does not automatically make them against their previous affiliate. As far as I can tell both pushka and shanstress have a "live and let live" philosophy. They neither preach vehemently for or against any organized religion. Your idea that they are "against" the LDS church is of your own dreaming. You are judging them falsely.

M.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray+Sep 30 2005, 10:58 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-shanstress

Ray, you are wrong. I'm not "against" the church. I simply do not believe it is true.

If I'm wrong about this, then I'll truly be happy to discover that I am wrong about this, but judging from many of the things you have said, I'm a little hestitant to believe that you truly are not "against" us. Personaly, I think you just do not see how some of the things you have said and continue to say show that you truly are against the Church.

But again, if I'm wrong, once I see that I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit that I was wrong.

See there? I have no problem with being told I am wrong. And that still doesn't mean that I have to accept what someone else says as the truth, even though they may truly believe it is true.

Ray, you made the accusation therefore the burden of proof is on you. Show us "many of the things" that shanstress has said that proves she is against the LDS church. And remember, a true statement of fact regarding history or doctrine doesn't qualify as being "against" the LDS church. Some kind of derogatory comment might make your case.

M.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Maureen+Sep 30 2005, 12:21 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 10:58 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-shanstress

Ray, you are wrong. I'm not "against" the church. I simply do not believe it is true.

If I'm wrong about this, then I'll truly be happy to discover that I am wrong about this, but judging from many of the things you have said, I'm a little hestitant to believe that you truly are not "against" us. Personaly, I think you just do not see how some of the things you have said and continue to say show that you truly are against the Church.

But again, if I'm wrong, once I see that I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit that I was wrong.

See there? I have no problem with being told I am wrong. And that still doesn't mean that I have to accept what someone else says as the truth, even though they may truly believe it is true.

Ray, you made the accusation therefore the burden of proof is on you. Show us "many of the things" that shanstress has said that proves she is against the LDS church. And remember, a true statement of fact regarding history or doctrine doesn't qualify as being "against" the LDS church. Some kind of derogatory comment might make your case.

M.

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LOL... I guerss is Maureen can butt in to Shanstress and Ray's conversation... so can I....

Here is just one post from Shanstress:

Since you asked, I'll give you a general answer (and for those who don't know, I was a convert to the LDS church in 1995, but had my name removed last year)...

If you had never heard of the LDS church, and someone told you that a young guy (who had some shifty practices to begin with) found some gold plates and translated them, then an angel took them back before anyone could see them (besides a select few).

If his first vision had many different versions...

If he secretly practiced polygamy and married other mens' wives, and some mens' young daughters, all the while keeping it a secret from his primary wife, then said that God commanded he do it.

And I could go on and on even to the present day, but I won't.

What makes this religion different from any other wierd sounding religion? Just that you guys have a testimony of its truthfulness?

It's difficult enough sometimes to have faith in God and Christ, but to also have to have faith in a third party with a shady past?... it's just too much.

Now if this is PRO lds.... I think we all best run for the hills....

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen+Sep 30 2005, 11:21 AM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 10:58 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-shanstress

Ray, you are wrong. I'm not "against" the church. I simply do not believe it is true.

If I'm wrong about this, then I'll truly be happy to discover that I am wrong about this, but judging from many of the things you have said, I'm a little hestitant to believe that you truly are not "against" us. Personaly, I think you just do not see how some of the things you have said and continue to say show that you truly are against the Church.

But again, if I'm wrong, once I see that I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit that I was wrong.

See there? I have no problem with being told I am wrong. And that still doesn't mean that I have to accept what someone else says as the truth, even though they may truly believe it is true.

Ray, you made the accusation therefore the burden of proof is on you. Show us "many of the things" that shanstress has said that proves she is against the LDS church. And remember, a true statement of fact regarding history or doctrine doesn't qualify as being "against" the LDS church. Some kind of derogatory comment might make your case.

M.

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If someone is not "for" something, personally, then they are either "against" it or "undecided", and clearly shanstress is not "undecided".

And it's as simple as that.

Or in other words, shanstress believes the Church is fine for other people, but not herself, because she does not "agree" with the Church, which shows that she is not "for" the Church.

And you really don't need me to quote all of those instances where shanstress has said that she does not "agree" with the Church (which means that she is not "for" the Church), because shanstress is more than happy to keep telling you that herself.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 30 2005, 01:36 PM

While i agree that Shanstress's post might not be LDS, to my knowledge it does have true facts.

Joseph Smith did have a checkered past including charges stemming from practices concerning scrying devices.

There is proof in journals and testimonies that there is more than one or two versions of the first visitation.

And again there is evidence in journals and testimonies about Joseph Smith and his practicing polygamy in secret for many years before the revelation.

While it might not be a glowing post for the Church, it also is a statement of proven truth.  Does it change any thing? THe church isn't only Joseph Smith,though he was a very important part, he was a human element of the church, and technicaly not one of these things disproves any church doctrine.

As said, you have to post the truth, it's just a matter of what you do with it.  To me these are very minor things, so i choose not to harp on them or try to turn them into anything larger.

If any of my facts are mistaken, do please let me know with actual literature references.

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It is all a matter of perspective... for what we know... from journals.. of those who were not happy.. I know one thing... whatever happened back then... it is impossible to know the 'whole truth'... except through one path... revelation... those who have left the church have stated without any harm... that they have not received any such revelation...

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen+Sep 30 2005, 11:14 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Sep 30 2005, 09:55 AM

For clarity's sake, please quote one of my posts in which I was being judgmental or offensive, because at this point I think you're only talking about instances where I have stated that [something] is wrong, because God or one of His prophets has said that [something] is wrong, and that I also know it is wrong, because I also know God has said it is wrong.

Wow, you made this easy Ray. Here are two statements that are judgemental opinions of 2 posters on this board by you:

And then we have shanstress, who is also now "against" the Church.

And then we have pushka, who is also "against" the Church.

Just because someone affiliated themselves with the LDS church in the past and then chose a different religious or non-religious path in the future does not automatically make them against their previous affiliate. As far as I can tell both pushka and shanstress have a "live and let live" philosophy. They neither preach vehemently for or against any organized religion. Your idea that they are "against" the LDS church is of your own dreaming. You are judging them falsely.

M.

←

Sorry, I was referring to "unrighteous" judgment, even though I left out the word "unrighteous".

We all judge, in the sense that we all make decisions, and making a judgment call in and of itself is not a bad thing. We should merely avoid making "unrighteous" judgments, meaning that we shoulid avoid deciding something without sufficient evidence to prove the case. And in this case, I believe shanstress has made her case sufficiently plain to all of us.

But if you don't think so, let's ask her once again.

shanstress,

It is proposed that we sustain the First Presidency, Quorum of Twelve Apostles, and other General Authorities of our Church as prophets, seers, and revelators of our Lord Jesus Christ. All in agreement please indicate by the uplifted hand.

Any opposed?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray+Sep 30 2005, 01:45 PM-->

Originally posted by Maureen@Sep 30 2005, 11:14 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Sep 30 2005, 09:55 AM

For clarity's sake, please quote one of my posts in which I was being judgmental or offensive, because at this point I think you're only talking about instances where I have stated that [something] is wrong, because God or one of His prophets has said that [something] is wrong, and that I also know it is wrong, because I also know God has said it is wrong.

Wow, you made this easy Ray. Here are two statements that are judgemental opinions of 2 posters on this board by you:

And then we have shanstress, who is also now "against" the Church.

And then we have pushka, who is also "against" the Church.

Just because someone affiliated themselves with the LDS church in the past and then chose a different religious or non-religious path in the future does not automatically make them against their previous affiliate. As far as I can tell both pushka and shanstress have a "live and let live" philosophy. They neither preach vehemently for or against any organized religion. Your idea that they are "against" the LDS church is of your own dreaming. You are judging them falsely.

M.

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Sorry, I was referring to "unrighteous" judgment, even though I left out the word "unrighteous".

We all judge, in the sense that we all make decisions, and making a judgment call in and of itself is not a bad thing. We should merely avoid making "unrighteous" judgments, meaning that we shoulid avoid deciding something without sufficient evidence to prove the case. And in this case, I believe shanstress has made her case sufficiently plain to all of us.

But if you don't think so, let's ask her once again.

shanstress,

It is proposed that we sustain the First Presidency, Quorum of Twelve Apostles, and other General Authorities of our Church as prophets, seers, and revelators of our Lord Jesus Christ. All in agreement please indicate by the uplifted hand.

Any opposed?

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LOL... this would make a good POLL ...

[Heather]

My concern is the motivation behind the words. For me personally, I don’t feel I have the right, nor do I feel comfortable chastising anyone for their sins. I don't care how well I follow the commandments and the Church leaders. It doesn't matter how well I know the doctrine, because I, like everyone else who has walked this earth (except Christ) has sinned. For me to pick up a stone and start throwing it at others, makes me a complete hypocrite.

A lot of times I don't feel the motivation of posts on this board are coming out of a desire to help others feel the love of God and find the way that they can live this life in happiness. I feel the motivation is coming out of a sense of, "I have to be right and I have to prove you wrong." Does anyone really think they can convert anyone? I have to say that the person speaking about the gospel has very little to do with the conversion process. Nothing I say or anyone says is going to matter to the person we're talking to if it's not said out of love and respect. Only then will the person consider the words being said and ponder them, and then have that desire to change. Everyone has the Light of Christ, and can know right from wrong for themselves. Just because someone says it, doesn’t make it true for anyone.

So when that happens, what has been gained? Has the sinner realized their evil ways and changed? No, they have become angry and pushed even further away from the message. What has been gained, other than the speakers to be filled with a sense of pride with a false realization that they have done their job and preached to the wicked?

Time and time again I have said the message is not wrong. Time and time again I have said that the message needs to be delivered to everyone; yet some still feel that they must take up the sword of truth and thrust it directly into the heart of those they deem wicked. Who are we to judge anyone and their sins? I don’t believe those receiving the message are angry because they’ve “had to hear the truth again, and the truth hurts.” For the most part, I believe a lot of them already know the truth, but like anyone, no one wants to be put into a corner and forced to do anything. That is Satan’s plan. I truly don’t believe anyone can make a difference in anyone’s life by spreading a hostile message. God can condemn and judge and do whatever he sees fit, but for me, I have yet to be called to go out and condemn those who have fallen away. For me, my calling is still to show others the happiness that comes from living a Christ-like life. I can’t force anyone to reap the same benefits and enjoy the same happiness I have. I can only hope that they can see it, and want to try it out themselves.