Guest antishock82003 Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 I'm curious, with the ever changing landscape of Mormon doctrine, do Mormons still believe that Adam lived in America? Quote
elinz Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 I had a neighbor kid named Adam. He lived in America. Does that count? Quote
elinz Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Okay. The power of the imagination to make sense of the world is enormous. We watch tv and movies and also read books. They all communicate a message. Joseph Smith seems to be sending a message in all the things he wrote. Is that message always literal? Some might prefer that it is literally true. Others might admire the other aspects of his stories. It's up to you to decide if it's valuable to you. What might Joseph Smith be saying about the "new land" by revealing such a story? What if this "new land" was the "garden of eden". Wouldn't we be "home" then? Would all things make sense this way? Symbolism and literalism are opposite ends of the spectrum. Quote
Guest antishock82003 Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 So. That's a 'no' then? Quote
elinz Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 You must think for yourself. There is no official creed. Quote
Behunin Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by elinz@Feb 16 2004, 07:58 PM You must think for yourself.There is no official creed. Like I said before, I really like you. Quote
Tr2 Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 You must think for yourself.That is not a common LDS practice.Adam in America? There aren't words to describe how stupid that idea is. Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Actually, as strange as this might sound, I don't think the Adam in America theory is that much crazier than any other biblical story from before Abraham's time. I think the explanation for Eden being in America goes something like this: People who believe in a literal Adam and Eve also believe in the Flood as a literal event. So if Adam existed, the Flood existed (and covered the entire earth). So if at the beginning of time there was a Garden of Eden in America, Adam and his descendents would have lived there up until the Flood. Then, with the earth covered in water, Noah's ark went all the way across the earth to the Middle East, and the Flood stopped. So if you are a Bible fundamentalist, it can easily make sense that Adam could have been in Missouri, while the post-flood Hebrews lived in the Middle East. As for the mention of the Euphrates river flowing through Eden (or was it Tigris?)...I guess the apologist would say that the post-flood people named the present day river after the one in pre-flood America. I don't personally believe it. Do Mormons believe it? At least some do still believe it. I know this because my dad met a Mormon at work who told him that the Garden of Eden was in America. Quote
Paul Osborne Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Yes, I believe Adam lived in America. Paul O Quote
Guest Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 You must think for yourself.That is not a common LDS practice.Adam in America? There aren't words to describe how stupid that idea is.wow! I thought this was an LDS site... I must have been mistaken. I didn't know that people would make this a place to give and take low blows. I'm curious, with the ever changing landscape of Mormon doctrine, do Mormons still believe that Adam lived in America?Well, I don't believe that the landscape of Mormon doctrine is really 'ever changing'. In fact, I'm sometimes quite frustrated at how our church doesn't change even when it would be much easier if certain aspects of it did so! But that's just me being lazy! Oh, I have a long way to go to live with God don't I? Anyway, I believe that Adam did live in America. And as far as I know--not that I know all that much--so does our docrtine.I hope that answered your question. If not, sorry. I am, after all, just a kid, ehh? Quote
Paul Osborne Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Bug, The truth be told, former members of the Church and those who are still members by name who frequent this board can’t get Mormonism out of their blood. It fascinates them to no end and there is a good change that any one of them will realize they are drooping in sin and will once again accept Joseph Smith as their prophet. We just have to tolerate these people to some degree. They need us and they are lonely for our replies. Paul O Quote
Jenda Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 I believe that the Garden of Eden was in America. I have believed Tao's theory about the flood thing for a long, long time. Does that make me an apologist? Quote
Guest Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Actually I believe exactally the flood theory. It makes sense to me. I'm very interested in things like this. Quote
Guest TheProudDuck Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 If I remember right, there's no record of Joseph Smith ever having said Adam lived in America. he characterized Adam-ondi-Ahman, in Missouri, as the place where Adam will "judge his people," i.e. at the time of the Second Coming. Some of Joseph Smith's contemporaries, as well as most of the hard-core doctrinal conservatives like J. Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie, take this to mean that the Garden of Eden itself was in North America -- a theory which, like the idea of a global flood on which it relies to get our early humans from Missouri to Ararat, has to throw out pretty much the entire disciplines of geology, archaeology, chemistry, and physics to be accepted literally. I could be wrong. Maybe Joseph Smith really did teach that the original Eden was in Missouri. I just remember noticing that the passage used to say that he did, doesn't actually say that. Quote
Snow Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 16 2004, 07:19 PM Adam in America? There aren't words to describe how stupid that idea is. Could ya try though. We all know how smart d'art you are.This is the fun part. He has no trouble believing in a literal Adam, cause that's good solid thinking - but heaven verboten that you try to physically locate Adam in a place he hasn't dogmatically bought into. Quote
Paul Osborne Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Feb 16 2004, 08:42 PM I could be wrong. Maybe Joseph Smith really did teach that the original Eden was in Missouri. I just remember noticing that the passage used to say that he did, doesn't actually say that. D&C 107: 53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.D&C 116: 1 SPRING Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith; Section Four 1839-42, p.158“I saw Adam in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman. He called together his children and blessed them with a patriarchal blessing. The Lord appeared in their midst, and he (Adam) blessed them all, and foretold what should befall them to the latest generation.”Paul O Quote
Snow Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Feb 16 2004, 08:42 PM If I remember right, there's no record of Joseph Smith ever having said Adam lived in America. he characterized Adam-ondi-Ahman, in Missouri, as the place where Adam will "judge his people," i.e. at the time of the Second Coming. i just read the piece(s) that you may be referring to: D&C 116, 117, Hx of the Church 3:35 and you are correct. McKonike talks about it extensively in the Millenial Messiah. I don't know what his sources are. A quick scan shows lot of secondary and terciary info, but no primary sources. WW says JS told him so. Oliver Huntington reports on the altar there built by Adam but Oliver is the same guy that reports that JS believed Quakers lived on the moon and true to form, Oliver waits 50 years before mentioning it. Quote
Guest antishock82003 Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 D&C 117:8, God rebukes William Marks and Newell K. Whitney for coveting land in Kirtland and encourages them to come to Missouri: "Is there not room enough on the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman and on the plains of Olaha Shinehah, or the land where Adam dwelt, that you should covet that which is but the drop and neglect the more weighty matters?" Seems pretty clear to me....*AS8 squeals*...can't wait to see how Snow weasels out of this one. Joy! Quote
Tr2 Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 wow! I thought this was an LDS site... I must have been mistaken. I didn't know that people would make this a place to give and take low blows. It is an LDS web site, and there are many non-LDS here. This place would be very boring without non-LDS here. Quote
Guest curvette Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 16 2004, 05:07 PM I'm curious, with the ever changing landscape of Mormon doctrine, do Mormons still believe that Adam lived in America? I don't ever hear this taught at church, but my son was taught this in Seminary this year. Also that Noah lived in America before the flood. He was quite disturbed by the teaching and didn't believe a word of it. Quote
Lindy Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 16 2004, 05:07 PM I'm curious, with the ever changing landscape of Mormon doctrine, do Mormons still believe that Adam lived in America? If I answer....will I still be wrong no matter what I say? Quote
Guest TheProudDuck Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Ant -- I don't agree that D&C 117:8 is very clear at all. It's like many sections of the early Doctrine & Covenants -- full of portentous (almost bombastic) language and figurative expressions, thoroughly muddling what the section is trying to say. The section is essentially telling Marks and Whitney not to be so attached to Ohio (as if that took a revelation -- I mean, what's there to be attached to? The "Drew Carey Show" hadn't been invented yet), because there was plenty of land elsewhere. The specific "elsewhere" is identified as (1) the "mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman"; (2) the "plains of Olaha Shinehah" ("olaha" is a Hawaiian word, interestingly enough) and (3) "the land where Adam dwelt." These three places are listed disjunctively (i.e. using the word "or"), indicating that they're three separate places. Or, the word "or" could mean that "the land where Adam dwelt," was an alternative way of describing one of the previous places (kind of like you might say "a can of pop, or soda"). So maybe AOA and Olaha Shinehah are both other names for "the land where Adam dwelt," or maybe both are, or neither. What does "the land where Adam dwelt" refer to? Does it refer a particular place, or to the earth generally? Either meaning would make sense -- the Lord would be saying either "there's enough land here in Missouri" or "there's enough land in the world for you not to fuss over a little bit of Ohio real estate." Heaven knows Section 117 uses plenty of figurative language; it warns Whitney against the "Nicolaitans," of all things, and there weren't any literal Nicolaitans around. (It was the name of a heretical sect warned against in the Book of Revelation.) In short, if you're looking for a clear statement that the place in Missouri identified in the Doctrine & Covenants as Adam-ondi-Ahman is the same place where Adam dwelt, Section 117 isn't it. Ray -- There's no indication that D&C 107 and 116 are referring to the same place. Just as there are two distinct and different places named "Bountiful" in the Book of Mormon (i.e. in Arabia and America), why couldn't there be more than one place named Adam-ondi-Ahman? Namely, one place for Adam to judge his people the first time around (in Genesis) and another at the end of days? In fact, the text of Sections 107 and 116 themselves lend support to the conclusion that they're different places. Section 107 refers to Adam-ondi-Ahman as a valley. Section 116 calls it a hill. (Section 117 calls it "mountains.") Which is it -- a valley, hill, or mountain? One place can't be all three. Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 I don't see what the problem is.If you believe Adam is fictional, he could have lived anywhere because of the fictional flood.If you believe he was real, he could have lived anywhere...because of the real flood.For the latter group, I have heard a theory that the Tigris or Euphrates of the Bible was really the Mississipi River, and they named the present day Tigris or Euphrates after the pre-flood Mississipi.Also...I'm not sure about this...but some creationists may believe that the earth was all one big continent before the Flood (a very fast continental drift)...which could have placed Missouri not too far from the Middle East before the flood. Maybe even the present day Tigris or Euphrates could have flowed through Missouri at this time.Once you accept Creation, Eden, Adam and The Flood...anything is possible.If you think those things are just myths, then location doesn't matter. Quote
Jenda Posted February 17, 2004 Report Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by curvette+Feb 17 2004, 11:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 17 2004, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 16 2004, 05:07 PM I'm curious, with the ever changing landscape of Mormon doctrine, do Mormons still believe that Adam lived in America? I don't ever hear this taught at church, but my son was taught this in Seminary this year. Also that Noah lived in America before the flood. He was quite disturbed by the teaching and didn't believe a word of it. Why would something like that disturb him? What possible difference could it make? Quote
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