Question... Asked By One Close To Me..

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 17 2005, 11:04 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 17 2005, 10:54 AM

Look at it this way, Miller was to White, what Smith was to Young.

Yet... the scriptures came from Joseph... not Brigham Young...

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Ellen White is probably the closest thing to Joseph Smith that you're going to find. If you want to do some indepth research on it, then go ahead. You asked, and I believe that this is the answer.

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Thank you for your imput.... I really appreciate it..

[Traveler]

Please: I think the theory of dueling genius is more consequence than it is fact. History is sprinkled with rare genius often surrounded by very smart but lesser talent that bring the genius to public awareness by ether using the genius to advance society or opposing the genius to keep it before the public until someone takes advantages of the offering. If not for the lesser intellect, both pro and con, it appears to me that genius will go unknown and become forgotten.

Take for example the modern field of electrical theory. Many tout the genius of Edison and Marconi but they were minor minions that took credit from the real contemporary genius of a little known figure, Nicola Tesla. Marconi used 17 of Nicola Tesla’s patents in his radio and finely the Smithsonian has recognized Tesla as the real inventor of the radio (most history books have yet to catch up). Edison spent much of his life and fortune trying to either take credit for Tesla inventions or to prove them inferior. The electric chair was built by Edison in attempt to dispel Tesla’s notion of a relative safe simple single AC electrical power source for all electrical needs.

In the last 100 years Tesla’s theories of electrical generation high voltage transmission, distribution, transformers, steppers and compactors for electrical use in factories and homes has remained unchanged and unimproved. Tesla’s claimed to have developed method to transmit electrical power without power lines but Westinghouse having barely spent millions in high voltage transmission infrastructure (that at the time financed and owned the Tesla’s research) destroyed the results and stopped development.

60 years before computers were manufactured, Tesla patented the “and-gate, or-gate and exclusive-or-gate” that is the essence of the modern electrical computer and the reason no one was able to patent the computer. There is much more but I will end here.

The big difference with Tesla is that he left no benefactors to his genus except humanity in general whereas others (Edison and Marconi) left heirs to their legacy to reap large financial benefit by touting their benefactors. It would seem that without worldly benefit few will tout or demean the genus of their generation – thus the obscurity of Nicola Tesla.

The point I would like to make about genus is that unless that genus has its friends to tout the genus or the enemies to scoff and ridicule the genus it will go unnoticed. For the religious, intellectual and theocratic theories, the genus of Joseph Smith Jr is maintained by both those that recognize the eternal connections of his contributions and those that malign his contributions in every way possible. Which was precisely prophesied while Joseph was still an unknown and obscure farm boy.

I am grateful for both the friends and enemies of the teachings of Joseph Smith that use their abilities and fortunes to publish and keep Joseph Smith’s contributions ever before the public that those that seek truth and make an effort to separate truth from error may find the truth (or error) they seek.

The Traveler

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 17 2005, 10:49 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 17 2005, 10:46 AM

Also... Joseph never denied the totally work to be of God... where as this woman admitted she used other's works...

IOWs a testimony from JS... brings in the difference... here.

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Let's be fair here. Joseph Smith gathered ideas from many sources, specifically people like Sidney Rigdon, or that dude that taught Smith Hebrew, and we all know that the Egyptian Book of Breathings was clearly only a thought stimulus for his Book of Abraham.

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Yet in the end... we have validated scripture... not just someones book...they wrote from their deep feelings...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Traveler@Oct 17 2005, 12:15 PM

Please:  I think the theory of dueling genius is more consequence than it is fact.  History is sprinkled with rare genius often surrounded by very smart but lesser talent that bring the genius to public awareness by ether using the genius to advance society or opposing the genius to keep it before the public until someone takes advantages of the offering.  If not for the lesser intellect, both pro and con, it appears to me that genius will go unknown and become forgotten.

Take for example the modern field of electrical theory.  Many tout the genius of Edison and Marconi but they were minor minions that took credit from the real contemporary genius of a little known figure, Nicola Tesla.  Marconi used 17 of Nicola Tesla’s patents in his radio and finely the Smithsonian has recognized Tesla as the real inventor of the radio (most history books have yet to catch up).  Edison spent much of his life and fortune trying to either take credit for Tesla inventions or to prove them inferior.  The electric chair was built by Edison in attempt to dispel Tesla’s notion of a relative safe simple single AC electrical power source for all electrical needs. 

In the last 100 years Tesla’s theories of electrical generation high voltage transmission, distribution, transformers, steppers and compactors for electrical use in factories and homes has remained unchanged and unimproved.  Tesla’s claimed to have developed method to transmit electrical power without power lines but Westinghouse having barely spent millions in high voltage transmission infrastructure (that at the time financed and owned the Tesla’s research) destroyed the results and stopped development.

60 years before computers were manufactured, Tesla patented the “and-gate, or-gate and exclusive-or-gate” that is the essence of the modern electrical computer and the reason no one was able to patent the computer.  There is much more but I will end here.

The big difference with Tesla is that he left no benefactors to his genus except humanity in general whereas others (Edison and Marconi) left heirs to their legacy to reap large financial benefit by touting their benefactors.  It would seem that without worldly benefit few will tout or demean the genus of their generation – thus the obscurity of Nicola Tesla.

The point I would like to make about genus is that unless that genus has its friends to tout the genus or the enemies to scoff and ridicule the genus it will go unnoticed.  For the religious, intellectual and theocratic theories, the genus of Joseph Smith Jr is maintained by both those that recognize the eternal connections of his contributions and those that malign his contributions in every way possible.  Which was precisely prophesied while Joseph was still an unknown and obscure farm boy.

I am grateful for both the friends and enemies of the teachings of Joseph Smith that use their abilities and fortunes to publish and keep Joseph Smith’s contributions ever before the public that those that seek truth and make an effort to separate truth from error may find the truth (or error) they seek.

The Traveler

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So true. Thank you.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 17 2005, 04:02 PM

Yet in the end... we have validated scripture... not just someones book...they wrote from their deep feelings...

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What do you mean "validated"?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 17 2005, 07:51 AM

But as for the Adventist... I will have to study up on that one... thanks Jason..

Not sure if you've found everything you were looking for on the Adventists, Please - and this is probably repeating a lot of what Jason has already said but here's some info. from wikipedia:

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is an evangelical Christian denomination that grew out of the prophetic Millerite movement in the United States during the middle part of the 19th century.

Origins

According to historians of the movement, this group gained its more recent name from the teaching that the expected return of Jesus on October 22, 1844 had been fulfilled in a way that had not previously been understood. This was termed "the Great Disappointment." Further Bible study led to the belief that Jesus in that year had entered into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary, and began an "investigative judgment" of the world: a process through which there is an examination of the heavenly records to "determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement"¹ after which Jesus will return to earth. According to the church's teaching, the return of Christ may occur very soon, though nobody knows the exact date of that event (Matthew 24:36).

For about 20 years, the Adventist movement was a rather unorganized group of people who held to this message. Among its greatest supporters were James White, Ellen G. White and Joseph Bates. Later, a formally organized church called the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists was established in Battle Creek, Michigan, in May 1863, with a membership of 3,500. Through the evangelism and inspiration of Ellen G. White, the church quickly grew and established a presence beyond North America during the later part of the 1800s. In 1903, the denominational headquarters were moved from Battle Creek to Washington D.C. (and the immediately neighboring community of Takoma Park, Maryland). In 1989, the headquarters was moved again, this time to Silver Spring, Maryland.

Doctrine

Seventh-day Adventist doctrine is based on the Anabaptist protestant tradition. Adventist doctrine resembles mainstream orthodox trinitarian Protestant theology, with the exception of several areas.

· Saturday as Sabbath. Seventh-day Adventists observe a 24-hour sunset-to-sunset Sabbath commencing Friday evening. Justification for this belief is garnered from the creation account in Genesis in which God rested on the seventh-day, an approach later immortalised in the Ten Commandments. Seventh-day Adventists maintain that there is no biblical mandate for the change from the "true Sabbath" to Sunday observance, which is to say that Sunday-keeping is merely a "tradition of men."

· State of the Dead. Seventh-day Adventists believe that death is a sleep during which the "dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). This view maintains that the person has no conscious form of existence until the resurrection, either at the second coming of Jesus (in the case of the righteous) or after the millennium of Revelation 20 (in the case of the wicked). Because of this view, Seventh-day Adventists do not believe hell currently exists and believe further that the wicked will be destroyed at the end of time.

· Baptism. Seventh-day Adventists practice adult baptism by full immersion in a similar manner to the Baptists. Infants are dedicated rather than baptized, as it is argued that baptism requires knowing consent and moral responsibility.

· Belief in an imminent, pre-millennial, universally visible second advent, preceded by a time of trouble when the righteous will be persecuted and a false second coming where Satan impersonates the Messiah.

· Teaching that the "Spirit of Prophecy," an identifying mark of the remnant church, was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White, whom Adventists recognize as the Lord's messenger. Her "writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction" (28 Fundamental Beliefs).

· Avoidance of unclean meat such as pork.

Seventh-day Adventists oppose the formulation of credal statements. Seventh-day Adventists prefer to view the fundamental beliefs as descriptors rather than prescriptors. However divergence from the published position is frowned upon. Missionary outreach of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is aimed on both unbelievers and other Christian Churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Day_Adventists#Origins

M.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Maureen+Oct 17 2005, 06:19 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 17 2005, 07:51 AM

But as for the Adventist... I will have to study up on that one... thanks Jason..

Not sure if you've found everything you were looking for on the Adventists, Please - and this is probably repeating a lot of what Jason has already said but here's some info. from wikipedia:

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is an evangelical Christian denomination that grew out of the prophetic Millerite movement in the United States during the middle part of the 19th century.

Origins

According to historians of the movement, this group gained its more recent name from the teaching that the expected return of Jesus on October 22, 1844 had been fulfilled in a way that had not previously been understood. This was termed "the Great Disappointment." Further Bible study led to the belief that Jesus in that year had entered into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary, and began an "investigative judgment" of the world: a process through which there is an examination of the heavenly records to "determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement"¹ after which Jesus will return to earth. According to the church's teaching, the return of Christ may occur very soon, though nobody knows the exact date of that event (Matthew 24:36).

For about 20 years, the Adventist movement was a rather unorganized group of people who held to this message. Among its greatest supporters were James White, Ellen G. White and Joseph Bates. Later, a formally organized church called the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists was established in Battle Creek, Michigan, in May 1863, with a membership of 3,500. Through the evangelism and inspiration of Ellen G. White, the church quickly grew and established a presence beyond North America during the later part of the 1800s. In 1903, the denominational headquarters were moved from Battle Creek to Washington D.C. (and the immediately neighboring community of Takoma Park, Maryland). In 1989, the headquarters was moved again, this time to Silver Spring, Maryland.

Doctrine

Seventh-day Adventist doctrine is based on the Anabaptist protestant tradition. Adventist doctrine resembles mainstream orthodox trinitarian Protestant theology, with the exception of several areas.

· Saturday as Sabbath. Seventh-day Adventists observe a 24-hour sunset-to-sunset Sabbath commencing Friday evening. Justification for this belief is garnered from the creation account in Genesis in which God rested on the seventh-day, an approach later immortalised in the Ten Commandments. Seventh-day Adventists maintain that there is no biblical mandate for the change from the "true Sabbath" to Sunday observance, which is to say that Sunday-keeping is merely a "tradition of men."

· State of the Dead. Seventh-day Adventists believe that death is a sleep during which the "dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). This view maintains that the person has no conscious form of existence until the resurrection, either at the second coming of Jesus (in the case of the righteous) or after the millennium of Revelation 20 (in the case of the wicked). Because of this view, Seventh-day Adventists do not believe hell currently exists and believe further that the wicked will be destroyed at the end of time.

· Baptism. Seventh-day Adventists practice adult baptism by full immersion in a similar manner to the Baptists. Infants are dedicated rather than baptized, as it is argued that baptism requires knowing consent and moral responsibility.

· Belief in an imminent, pre-millennial, universally visible second advent, preceded by a time of trouble when the righteous will be persecuted and a false second coming where Satan impersonates the Messiah.

· Teaching that the "Spirit of Prophecy," an identifying mark of the remnant church, was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White, whom Adventists recognize as the Lord's messenger. Her "writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction" (28 Fundamental Beliefs).

· Avoidance of unclean meat such as pork.

Seventh-day Adventists oppose the formulation of credal statements. Seventh-day Adventists prefer to view the fundamental beliefs as descriptors rather than prescriptors. However divergence from the published position is frowned upon. Missionary outreach of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is aimed on both unbelievers and other Christian Churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Day_Adventists#Origins

M.

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Thank you. This was very informative...

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 17 2005, 08:12 AM

  I wonder how SDA's and LDS stack up in Tithing receipts? 

the same accusations are launched against Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon if you recall.

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Estimated at 4 to 5+ billion.