Church Basketball and God

[Pegasus]

First of all, I will say first up that this thread is not exclusively for church basketball, but I am using the example to ask a question. I would like to hear people's opinions.

I remember growing up praying before basketball games for help to play well. Similarly asking for help to do well in tests in school, etc etc.

My question is - Is God fair if he helps me during a game of basketball to play well, while the other non-lds players have to do it on their own? Is it fair that God would give me special help during school exams while the other kids have to do the exam with only their own power? God is omniscient, so it is like the guy who has all the answers helping you during the exam, while everyone else does it on their own.

Or God who is all powerful giving you greater capacity to perform during a basketball game.

From God's point of view, is it fair to give someone an advantage when they pray to him?

[pam]

How do you know he is giving you special attention over the others? Isn't prayer also based on faith? Perhaps it is your faith that is allowing you to excel a bit more during those times and not necessary extra help from Heavenly Father. Perhaps psychologically knowing you have that faith you are moved to push yourself a bit more.

[Pegasus]

Well if that was the case then why even pray? If God doesn't actually help out and its just my faith allowing me to excel. Saying that having faith in God pushes you a bit more is arguable, since knowing that there is no God and having to do it all yourself could serve as inspiration to push yourself more.

If God doesn't actually help then I don't see how my faith in him makes me play better basketball, or helps me in a science exam.

[Moksha]

If God doesn't actually help then I don't see how my faith in him makes me play better basketball, or helps me in a science exam.

Faith gives you inspiration and hope.

[Misshalfway]

God only helps those who wear blue and white. Sorry to the rest of you.

[pam]

Okay let me put it this way as I understand what you are saying.

God doesn't help those that don't help themself. That being said..If I do nothing to prepare myself for that test but I pray about it..why would God help me? Now if I pray that God would help me to retain those things that I have studied so that I can perform better on the test...then I'm relying on myself and also on the faith that God will help me in the way that I asked.

We can't expect God to do all the work for us. The same with basketball. If I am lazy at practice, don't follow the coaches advice but pray that I am at my best in the game....What have we done for ourself?

I'm not saying that God doesn't assist in in those things..I think much of it has to do with how much effort we ourselves also put into reaching those goals.

[Pegasus]

I know that Moksha...but how does hope help you in a game of basketball? Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that in these situations that God doesn't actually help at all? It's all just psychological?

[Moksha]

God only helps those who wear blue and white. Sorry to the rest of you.

Ah, so that is why the BYU Cougars always walk away with a Moral Victory whether they won the game or not.

Wonder if they will end up with only Moral Victory this Saturday?

[Misshalfway]

I always think of the 2 Nephi scripture that talks about how if we pray God will consecrate our performance for our good. What does that mean exactly? I don't necessarily think it means winning. I mean maybe losing is good for the soul too. I do think that God visits His blessings onto the people who pray. The scriptures are full of examples. Membership isn't enough to acquire the blessings of the Lord. The scriptures do refer to slothful servants.

I believe that God has helped me give talks or sing songs or act better in plays. I have also had those days where I prayed like crazy and still forgot a line or hit a bad note. Help from the Lord doesn't exactly mean winning or favoritism.

[Moksha]

I know that Moksha...but how does hope help you in a game of basketball? Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that in these situations that God doesn't actually help at all? It's all just psychological?

As you know, God does not address all our requests. Bad things happen in spite of prayer. A diligent prayer may sometimes still result in a failing grade.

Psychological boosts are good for both our performance and our morale.

------

Still waiting for that Prayer Competition between Brigham Young and Orel Roberts University. No matter what, BYU will walk away with a Moral Victory.

:)

[Pegasus]

Yeah I know that prayers aren't all addressed like that. Otherwise I could just pray for a new Nissan 370Z to just appear in my driveway.

In this situation though, what do you think? Does God give people an advantage if they pray to him, and if he does, is that fair?

[Misshalfway]

An advantage? Yes. Go read the OT or the BofM. All over the BofM wars the text identifies when God's people went to battle with His strength or on their own power. I really do think the God supports the efforts of all who love Him.

[Dravin]

Is God fair if he helps me during a game of basketball to play well, while the other non-lds players have to do it on their own?

I'm fairly sure non-LDS pray and have their prayers answered. The option is open to both if they want to take it. The other usage of fair would be if it’s against the rules to pray/and or receive divine help (with various values of help kept in mind); I’ve not seen any games preclude such. Now if God is sending angels to block punts for BYU we may have an issue, but if he’s helping people focus/train/be their best I don’t see an issue. You may need to define the kind of help you are talking about here, as I’m thinking of God inspiring me to be better not making my rebounds for me Angels in the Outfield style. He could of course, but I don’t think he would, basically because I think it’d be unfair in that context. So I think we both agree at the end of the line of thought, I just think we may have a disagreement with the starting point.

I’ll take it one step further for you, if one keeps the Word of Wisdom and is blessed physically as a result of keeping God’s commandment is that unfair when in your basketball game that leads to you being a better player over one who doesn’t? Are divine blessings that aid you in the pursuit of a basketball game only unfair when they are directly asked for that purpose and not when those blessing are ancillary to that purpose but end up being of benefit anyway? What if we are talking about being blessed with talent? Michael Jordan was blessed with talent and ability, I was never blessed with them in that arena (basketball) or to that degree, did God help MJ unfairly by blessing him with such even if he didn't help him one wit on the court?

so it is like the guy who has all the answers helping you during the exam, while everyone else does it on their own.

God's omniscience is only an issue if he'd giving you answers, if help comes in other ways, such as inspiring you to remember your lessons his omniscience is moot. Anyway for fairness in tests, or its antithesis cheating, it comes down to following the rules, if the rules do not preclude divine aid it isn’t cheating. I’ve seen rules against talking with fellow students but not against talking with God. :) As far as advantage, once again it is open to both.

Personally I have no problem with seeking blessings from following God’s commandments or specifically petitioning for such resulting in advantage over not doing so. If following God didn’t give one any advantage there’d be no point to doing so. I know you put it in the context of a basketball game or a test, but it is something that applies generally.

P.S. We may have some placebo effect going on, but as I don’t know 100% for sure I’m inclined to default to giving God thanks, if nothing else he blessed me with a function brain, a significant advantage in both endeavors and something to be thankful for even if he isn’t helping me concentrate.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Dravin

[Justice]

We always prayed that no one would get seriously hurt.

[hordak]

The "problem with prayer" IMO is that we are selfish, forget that others have free will, and expect the world to revolve around us. When we pray for a job promotion, or to win a basketball game we are even selfish with the results, we win, we thank God, while forgetting that another has lost, we lose, we take it as a lesson in humility without considering that the other person, prayed harder/ better etc

Ultimately I believe prayers are answered not as "actions" but as inspiration. Praying for action is too late IMO. You don't pray to win the game, you pray for the strength to do 2 a day practices until your good enough to win the game, or to take the loss well. You don't pray for the job, you pray for the foresight and steadfastness to get through school and gain the skills to earn you that job.

God isn't some Gennie lamp we rub when needed.

[Guest Alana]

Didn't your parents tell you that life's not fair?

[Pegasus]

Yes, Justice. I pray for other things too. I was looking for someone to actually address my question. Thank you Misshalfway for your answer and also to Dravin for addressing the actual question.

Misshalfway: I also had in mind the stories in the scriptures of God helping those who prayed to him, like the stripling warriors of the Book of Mormon who were virtually invincible.

Dravin: If non-lds pray and have their prayers answered, then why does it matter who we pray to or how we pray? As an example, if a muslim prays to Allah in the way that a muslim is taught to pray, why would our God answer the prayer similarly? To take it a step further, if the believers or the priests of Ba'al prayed to Ba'al, would God answer their prayers similarly?

As far as definitions go of what help God gives people in these circumstances, I don't refer to any specific type of help, but any type at all.

In the case of the exam, even if God doesn't give you the answer, but helps you remember stuff, I would still say it is an unfair advantage. I personally think that for it to considered cheating or not does not depend on who you get the help from. The principle is the same.

Ah...my head hurts...

[Dravin]

The "problem with prayer" IMO is that we are selfish, forget that others have free will, and expect the world to revolve around us. When we pray for a job promotion, or to win a basketball game we are even selfish with the results, we win, we thank God, while forgetting that another has lost, we lose, we take it as a lesson in humility without considering that the other person, prayed harder/ better etc

There is that. It kinda reminds me of the scene from Otherside of Heaven when they are becalmed and the one counseler recommends that they pray for a good wind as their prayer for a tail wind may be at odds for against somebody's prayer for a 'head' wind. We often forget that our prayers are not the only ones in action. Not that I think Newton's laws apply to prayers, just that we often forget about other's and their agency and lives. Its like prayer for a spouse to change their heart, God isn't going to reach down and deny their agency for your benefit.

Furthermore:

Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

That's why I tend to think of any divine help given in the form of inspiration and the like as opposed to Angels in the Outfield. I doubt it's God's will that I make that three pointer, but it is his will that I perfect my talents, even if its just playing basketball. So he'll help me perfect that talent, he won't win the game for me.

[Misshalfway]

Misshalfway: I also had in mind the stories in the scriptures of God helping those who prayed to him, like the stripling warriors of the Book of Mormon who were virtually invincible.

Well, I don't know if I see them as invincible. They all had wounds and were worn to the edge. They suffered and experienced the realities of war. But they survived. Maybe its the way God supports our efforts. We see so little of how He supports us or the wisdom He uses to drive the way the blessings come.

I would still say it is an unfair advantage.

Why do you see it as an unfair advantage? If God covenants with me that He will support my life in exchange for my obedience....and I am diligent and perform my labors in faith not relying on the arm of the flesh while others who know better may not be so diligent, how is that unfair? How is it cheating? God doesn't bring the math answers to my memory if I haven't done the work to put them there in the first place.

What about the priest of Baal and Elijah and the whole fire thing? You think God should support falsehoods just to be fair?

[Pegasus]

Misshalfway,

Agreed on the point that they weren't invincible. I never said they were.

On unfair advantage. Replace the word God with the devil and tell me if its moral.

If the devil covenants with me that he will support my life in exchange for my obedience....and I am diligent and perform my labors in faith not relying on the arm of the flesh while others who know better may not be so diligent, how is that unfair? How is it cheating?

Extreme example, but I'm talking about the principle. If the devil prospered you for doing his bidding. Your transaction with him is fair. But your advantage over others is unfair.

On the priest of Ba'al. That's not the point I was making. It doesn't make sense to me, that is why I posed the question. It was in regards to Dravin's general statement that other people that are non-lds pray and have their prayers answered. The priest of Ba'al are non-lds. I raised the question because I thought the point was invalid, not because I personally think God should answer the priests of Ba'al's prayers to remain fair.

[Dravin]

Dravin: If non-lds pray and have their prayers answered, then why does it matter who we pray to or how we pray? As an example, if a muslim prays to Allah in the way that a muslim is taught to pray, why would our God answer the prayer similarly? To take it a step further, if the believers or the priests of Ba'al prayed to Ba'al, would God answer their prayers similarly?

I was thinking non-LDS Christian. No I don't think if you pray to Grengor the Magical Sky Unicorn for help that it will necessarily be beneficial. However, if people want to petition God in the proper way he will hear them.

In the case of the exam, even if God doesn't give you the answer, but helps you remember stuff, I would still say it is an unfair advantage.

Why? Is that advantage not available to others willing to do what is required to receive it? If not how is that unfair?

Main Entry: 1fair

Pronunciation: \ˈfer\

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English fager, fair, from Old English fæger; akin to Old High German fagar beautiful

Date: before 12th century

6 a: marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism <a very fair person to do business with>b (1): conforming with the established rules : allowed (2): consonant with merit or importance : due <a fair share>c: open to legitimate pursuit, attack, or ridicule <fair game>

The above is my understanding of fair. It isn't partial (anyone can apply), and it conforms to the rules. I suppose you could argue that it is aid that one hasn't merited, but that’s why I think you need to study first and apply for that aid, randomly received when one made no effort to learn does pose problems.

I personally think that for it to considered cheating or not does not depend on who you get the help from. The principle is the same.

So if a test precludes talking with the guy next to you but allows notes (notes don't have to be written by you, I can use photocopied notes, or use notes a teacher provides) then using notes is cheating? I daresay who and what the help comes from is extremely pertinent. I suppose you can ask the proctor if divine aid and communication is considered against the rules, but considering the jokes about praying over tests I don’t imagine most have issues with it.

On unfair advantage. Replace the word God with the devil and tell me if its moral.

"I worship the devil." Nope not moral, of course by that logic worship of God is immoral.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Dravin

[Pegasus]

Dravin:

1. So non-lds Christians can pray to their god and have their prayers answered, but other religions such as Hinduism and Islam do not get their prayers answered. To me that is not fair at all. If I was born in the heart of an Islamic society, then all I would know is Islam and I could never have a prayer answered. If I was the Pope however, although I am the leader of a church that is an abomination to the Lord, because it is a form of Christianity I will have my prayers answered. Never mind that the definitions of their gods, the way that they pray, and the way that they worship is completely removed from the true church. I would remind you that Grengor the magical sky unicorn is equally as real as any other god people have believed in, with the exception of Elohim.

2. I am not sure why you posted a definition of 'fair'. Everyone knows what 'fair' means.

3. I don't think using notes in an exam where notes are allowed is cheating. How can you compare that to being in an exam where everyone works on their own, but you get some kind of divine assistance? To me your example is a level playing field, my example is referring to one individual having an unfair advantage because of some kind of divine help, whatever form that comes in.

4. Please explain how my logic implies that the worship of God is immoral. My point is that cheating is cheating. If the extreme analogy that I gave was not clear enough I apologize. I offer another analogy for you.

Any criminal act will do for this example. I will use stealing. It is illegal to steal.

If you steal from your neighbor, it is illegal.

If you steal from a stranger, it is illegal.

If you steal from your grandmother it is illegal.

It is the principle itself. They don't permit stealing from certain individuals, or certain social groups. They do not permit stealing from anyone with the name "Joshua". The principle is wrong, with no respecter of persons. So it doesn't matter where the unfair advantage comes from...

I hope that clears things up.

[Dravin]

So non-lds Christians can pray to their god and have their prayers answered, but other religions such as Hinduism and Islam do not get their prayers answered. To me that is not fair at all.

How unfair of him to apply the same standard (of which being LDS is not one of them) to prayer. I daresay if you truly feel such is unfair then we have a sufficiently different concept of what is fair that mutual understanding on this topic is unlikely.

I am not sure why you posted a definition of 'fair'. Everyone knows what 'fair' means.

Yes, but they apply different meanings to it. If we had an identical understanding of the word we’d be in agreement, as we aren’t it means both of us have nuances that the other isn’t applying. It was a springboard not dictionary proof that I am right (which I fear you may have taken as my purpose in posting it).

Please explain how my logic implies that the worship of God is immoral.

Well if God helping you is immoral because replacing God with the devil doesn’t sound moral (the devil helped me), then worshiping God is immoral because replacing God with the devil doesn’t sound moral (I worship the devil).

You should have stuck with immoral = immoral, it is unassailable as far as it goes. You are still left explaining/convincing that something qualifies as immoral, but you have to do that anyway.

They do not permit stealing from anyone with the name "Joshua".

If the law is written that you may take items without permission from people named Joshua then stealing from Joshua is not illegal. Likewise if the rules say you can seek help (or do not forbid) from a source then seeking help from that source is not against the rules. Taking my math book into a test, which is closed book/notes, is cheating, taking my book with me to take my English test, which is open book, is not cheating. I feel tests are open God, not closed God, I suppose this is a fundemental disagreement.

The principle is wrong, with no respecter of persons. So it doesn't matter where the unfair advantage comes from...

Yep, but you have yet to demonstrate (at least to mine and other’s understanding) how it is an unfair advantage. You can say an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage and most will agree with you. If people disagree that what you are supposing is an unfair advantage is in fact such then repeating an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage doesn’t give any additional understanding. So yes cheating is cheating, we just disagree on what is cheating.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Dravin

[Seminarysnoozer]

Real Salt Lake Soccer team winning L.A. Galaxy is proof of the power of prayer, and unfair advantage...

(Just kidding). I was hoping for L.A. to win but it was a good game, and congrats to Salt Lake!

[Kishkumen_Called]

Is God fair? Fair? I pray that He is not, because if I get what I deserve ("conforming with the established rules "), I am hosed!! I want Mercy, thank you very much!!

From the Bible Dictionary,

The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

If you work for something and then are granted it - is that unfair? I don't see how it can be. IMHO, your questions seems to be attempting to confine a Celestial principle in a Telestial framework. Just me.

Cheers