Non-mormon, But Great Examples!

[Snow]

Originally posted by john doe@Oct 24 2005, 06:39 AM

My great-grandfather crossed the plains with the Mormon pioneers a couple times, and he used to tell stories of how, after a long day of outriding for the companies, it would be so good to come into camp and have a nice hot cup of coffee. When asked about it, he said it was normal and not frowned upon at all by the others there. Today, it would be a rare occasion for a good Mormon to talk about how great a cup of coffee would taste. Sure, the WOW wasn't commandment then, but it wasn't unheard of among the Saints at the time, either. I would call that another cultural difference between then and now.

←

The Church was not rigorous at all in observing the WoW until the middle of the last century.

Joseph Smith Sr. had a drinking problem.

Joseph Smith Jr. drank wine on occasion and even in the Carthage Jail sent for a bottle of wine (as I recall - if necessary I can check his History of the Church)

Apostles even at the turn of the last century (1900) drank beer.

The Hotel Utah was paid for with the profit from it's bar, the largest in the Rocky Mountains.

[Fiannan]

Snow, if you want a rundown on how Protestants viewed birth control in the early part of the 19th. century then check the Comstock laws and the reactions against Socialist/Humanist birth control advocate Margaret Sanger. The Catholic Church did not make laws against birth control (struck down by the Warren Court in Griswald) it was Protestants. Catholics have maintained an orthodox view on birth control or family limitation, many Protestants have ignored or changed the doctrines of Protestantism, Mormons seem to try to say the same things (read the Proclaimation on the Family in spiritual manner) but with a kinder approach. The idea is to have a large family (did you read Elder Oak's General Conference quote from 1993?) but that factors may step in (genetic flaws, psychological conditions, health concerns) that might require limitation -- I will note that Brigham Young aslo recognized these things.

Some members look at the Bishop's Handbook (oh wait, the book is not out there for general readership so it has absolutely no spiritual weight behind it, now does it?) and try to interpret it the same way the ACLU tries to distort the 1st. Amendment's true meaning but that doesn't change the views of the Church. And since couples are urged to involve the Lord in the decision, and the Lord has pretty much revealed from Old Testament times on that a large family is a blessing and an ideal, then what does that lead us to conclude?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 24 2005, 09:04 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-john doe@Oct 24 2005, 06:39 AM

My great-grandfather crossed the plains with the Mormon pioneers a couple times, and he used to tell stories of how, after a long day of outriding for the companies, it would be so good to come into camp and have a nice hot cup of coffee. When asked about it, he said it was normal and not frowned upon at all by the others there. Today, it would be a rare occasion for a good Mormon to talk about how great a cup of coffee would taste. Sure, the WOW wasn't commandment then, but it wasn't unheard of among the Saints at the time, either. I would call that another cultural difference between then and now.

←

The Church was not rigorous at all in observing the WoW until the middle of the last century.

Joseph Smith Sr. had a drinking problem.

Joseph Smith Jr. drank wine on occasion and even in the Carthage Jail sent for a bottle of wine (as I recall - if necessary I can check his History of the Church)

Apostles even at the turn of the last century (1900) drank beer.

The Hotel Utah was paid for with the profit from it's bar, the largest in the Rocky Mountains.

←

A drinking problem? give us a break... snow... admit you have left the church's main stream and are now an apostate ... wolf in sheep's clothing...

Instead of searching to be born again ... you are searching to fill up your emptyness with things that will scratch your ears...

2 Tim. 4: 3

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please+Oct 25 2005, 10:17 AM-->

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 24 2005, 09:04 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-john doe@Oct 24 2005, 06:39 AM

My great-grandfather crossed the plains with the Mormon pioneers a couple times, and he used to tell stories of how, after a long day of outriding for the companies, it would be so good to come into camp and have a nice hot cup of coffee. When asked about it, he said it was normal and not frowned upon at all by the others there. Today, it would be a rare occasion for a good Mormon to talk about how great a cup of coffee would taste. Sure, the WOW wasn't commandment then, but it wasn't unheard of among the Saints at the time, either. I would call that another cultural difference between then and now.

←

The Church was not rigorous at all in observing the WoW until the middle of the last century.

Joseph Smith Sr. had a drinking problem.

Joseph Smith Jr. drank wine on occasion and even in the Carthage Jail sent for a bottle of wine (as I recall - if necessary I can check his History of the Church)

Apostles even at the turn of the last century (1900) drank beer.

The Hotel Utah was paid for with the profit from it's bar, the largest in the Rocky Mountains.

←

A drinking problem? give us a break... snow... admit you have left the church's main stream and are now an apostate ... wolf in sheep's clothing...

Instead of searching to be born again ... you are searching to fill up your emptyness with things that will scratch your ears...

2 Tim. 4: 3

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

←

I don't know about JS Sr, but Brigham Young sure liked his whiskey. Even after the move to Utah.

And please, what makes you think your in the "mainstream"? You're a right-wing conservative nut-job who think's she's being chased by the internet gestapo!

Give me a break.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 25 2005, 10:54 AM-->

Originally posted by Please@Oct 25 2005, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 24 2005, 09:04 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-john doe@Oct 24 2005, 06:39 AM

My great-grandfather crossed the plains with the Mormon pioneers a couple times, and he used to tell stories of how, after a long day of outriding for the companies, it would be so good to come into camp and have a nice hot cup of coffee. When asked about it, he said it was normal and not frowned upon at all by the others there. Today, it would be a rare occasion for a good Mormon to talk about how great a cup of coffee would taste. Sure, the WOW wasn't commandment then, but it wasn't unheard of among the Saints at the time, either. I would call that another cultural difference between then and now.

←

The Church was not rigorous at all in observing the WoW until the middle of the last century.

Joseph Smith Sr. had a drinking problem.

Joseph Smith Jr. drank wine on occasion and even in the Carthage Jail sent for a bottle of wine (as I recall - if necessary I can check his History of the Church)

Apostles even at the turn of the last century (1900) drank beer.

The Hotel Utah was paid for with the profit from it's bar, the largest in the Rocky Mountains.

←

A drinking problem? give us a break... snow... admit you have left the church's main stream and are now an apostate ... wolf in sheep's clothing...

Instead of searching to be born again ... you are searching to fill up your emptyness with things that will scratch your ears...

2 Tim. 4: 3

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

←

I don't know about JS Sr, but Brigham Young sure liked his whiskey. Even after the move to Utah.

And please, what makes you think your in the "mainstream"? You're a right-wing conservative nut-job who think's she's being chased by the internet gestapo!

Give me a break.

←

You are the one who dances from one religious belief to another... get a grip and stop using ignorance as your only weapon.

[Ray]

Snow’s testimony concerning Joseph Smith Sr. and Brigham Young and some other leaders of the Church isn’t based on a witness he has received from the Holy Ghost, and he doesn’t intend for anyone to assume that God has told him what he is telling us. He is merely sharing his understanding of some information he has read in some books which have been written.

And btw, although Snow appears to be way out there, I now know that he isn’t as bad as he appears to be.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 25 2005, 09:18 AM

You are the one who dances from one religious belief to another... get a grip and stop using ignorance as your only weapon.

←

That doesn't even make sense Peace. Jason didn't accuse you of moving from religion to religion. Besides which, Jason is one of the people on this board, contrasted to others on the board, that seems willing to confront and address just about any issue. He may be wrong or negative about some things but it not a matter of ignorance.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 25 2005, 08:17 AM

A drinking problem? give us a break... snow... admit you have left the church's main stream and are now an apostate ... wolf in sheep's clothing...

Instead of searching to be born again ... you are searching to fill up your emptyness with things that will scratch your ears...

2 Tim. 4: 3

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

←

Yes, drinking to the extent that it was a problem for him and his family. In 1821 he essentially abdicated leadership of the family to the eldest son Alvin. See page 42 of Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling. Bushman has it well documented.

As for the rest of your nonsense.... go tell it to the Spartans, wee lassie.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 25 2005, 06:26 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 25 2005, 09:18 AM

You are the one who dances from one religious belief to another... get a grip and stop using ignorance as your only weapon.

←

That doesn't even make sense Peace. Jason didn't accuse you of moving from religion to religion. Besides which, Jason is one of the people on this board, contrasted to others on the board, that seems willing to confront and address just about any issue. He may be wrong or negative about some things but it not a matter of ignorance.

←

It depends upon what you define ignorance as... I define it as the absence of light and truth...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 25 2005, 06:32 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 25 2005, 08:17 AM

A drinking problem? give us a break... snow... admit you have left the church's main stream and are now an apostate ... wolf in sheep's clothing...

Instead of searching to be born again ... you are searching to fill up your emptyness with things that will scratch your ears...

2 Tim. 4: 3

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

←

Yes, drinking to the extent that it was a problem for him and his family. In 1821 he essentially abdicated leadership of the family to the eldest son Alvin. See page 42 of Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling. Bushman has it well documented.

As for the rest of your nonsense.... go tell it to the Spartans, wee lassie.

←

Lack of light and truth here also...

JS was extremely open about his weaknesses.. yet in all of his writings there is not one where he says anything about having a weakness for drinking... maybe it was one of those things as a youth... where he said he did things he wasn't proud of....

[Fiannan]

All I can state here is:

http://members.cox.net/dogmatix/Thread%20Hijacked.JPG

[Snow]

Originally posted by Please+Oct 25 2005, 04:59 PM-->

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 25 2005, 06:32 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 25 2005, 08:17 AM

A drinking problem? give us a break... snow... admit you have left the church's main stream and are now an apostate ... wolf in sheep's clothing...

Instead of searching to be born again ... you are searching to fill up your emptyness with things that will scratch your ears...

2 Tim. 4: 3

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

←

Yes, drinking to the extent that it was a problem for him and his family. In 1821 he essentially abdicated leadership of the family to the eldest son Alvin. See page 42 of Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling. Bushman has it well documented.

As for the rest of your nonsense.... go tell it to the Spartans, wee lassie.

←

Lack of light and truth here also...

JS was extremely open about his weaknesses.. yet in all of his writings there is not one where he says anything about having a weakness for drinking... maybe it was one of those things as a youth... where he said he did things he wasn't proud of....

←

Pay attention. I said Joseph Smith Sr. not Joseph Smith Jr.

[Snow]

Lighten up Fiannan,

People talk about what people want to talk about. You're free to read or not read, post or not post as you choose.

Conversations in real life move from topic to topic to topic.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 25 2005, 11:48 PM

All I can state here is:

http://members.cox.net/dogmatix/Thread%20Hijacked.JPG

←

ROFL!!

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 23 2005, 11:32 AM

...I am not suggesting that every person or every LDS person try to raise a dozen kids or more.  I'd think the world would be better off though if healthy, intelligent, devout and married LDS couples had large families.  I'd also like to see healthy, intelligent, devout and married Christians also have large families.  The rest can do whatever.

Fiannan - How do you define large family? Some people think 4 kids in large enough and some think large means double digits. How many children do you have?

Happy homes come in a variety of appearances. Some feature large families with father, mother, brothers, and sisters living together in a spirit of love. Others consist of a single parent with one or two children, while other homes have but one occupant….

Thomas S. Monson, “Hallmarks of a Happy Home,” Liahona, Oct. 2001, 3

M.

[Fiannan]

I guess the definition varies according to where you are. In EU and Gomorrah having 3 kids is a large family while in Afghanistan (according to a woman I know from there) if a woman only has four kids people will feel sorry for her (assuming she must have a health problem since she could only have four).

I read an article once that said that if you have a hypothetical couple that only has two kids, and those kids only will be assumed to have 2 kids in ideal conditions, that variables such as infertility, non-marriage, mortality, etc. will probably insure that in 4 generations there will be NO genetic descendants from the original 2 parents. Three kids is actually mere replacement and may (depending on variables) lead to some growth. Maybe that's why one Church leader early in the 20th. Century said that couples who only have 2 or 3 kids are cheating themselves.

I would say 4 or 5 kids in today's post-Christian ethics world of the west should be the standard ideal for devout LDS, Bible-believing Protestants and Catholics. For the LDS, knowing the full story behind the pre-existence and the next life, one might feel that this would promote even higher fertility.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 27 2005, 03:13 AM

I read an article once that said that if you have a hypothetical couple that only has two kids, and those kids only will be assumed to have 2 kids in ideal conditions, that variables such as infertility, non-marriage, mortality, etc. will probably insure that in 4 generations there will be NO genetic descendants from the original 2 parents.

I have a REALLY hard time believing this. Would you please provide a source?

I guess you didn't want to answer Maureen's question about how many YOU have.

[Fiannan]

Not hard to believe the article -- sorry, it was in a biology book in a classroom of a friend that I was visiting a few years back.

I think we all know people who had only two kids and neither of those kids married and had children, or just one did and had only one kid. Then we can consider that 1 in 6 couples are infertile and only half will solve the problem, some kids die before reproducing, some people never marry, some people go homosexual and many others just decide kids are not their thing.

The four generations to extinction is not hard to believe at all.

As for kid numbers I am not into bragging but I have 7 beautiful, intelligent children.

[dizzysmiles]

people, people, people, I grew up in a large family would't change it. but that doesnt mean i want a LARGE family, but I do want more kids then i have now. I have two. Also its nobody's buisness if they decide they want their kids close or not, in the next life we only have family,. but yes i think you should be able to provide all aspects of emotional, spiritual, physical, and mentally for each child. the church does talk about puttin off children for school and other such is a sin .. dont believe me? read the miricle of forgivness by spencer w,. kimball. and you say you dont judge people for having a lot of kids, but sure sounds like we are..

[Maureen]

Originally posted by dizzysmiles@Oct 27 2005, 11:40 AM

...the church does talk about puttin off children for school and other such is a sin .. dont believe me? read the miricle of forgivness by spencer w,. kimball....

Hello dizzysmiles,

You're saying the leaders of your church have actually said that waiting to have children is a sin. Could you provide us with some quotes? Thanks!

M.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

I have known two children who came from the large families... and they were the oldest who were made literal slave baby sitters... One refused to even get married.. because she stated it was her turn to live.... and have a life...

The other one only had two boys and called it... she wasn't the best mom either.. sent her kids over to my husband's mother to babysit..

These two women came from families which had 14 children.

We have a women in our ward with 10 children. Her older children have been made to do all the baby sitting... or work in their dads metal shop business... free slave labor is what it looks like to me...

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Oct 27 2005, 04:53 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Fiannan@Oct 27 2005, 03:13 AM

I read an article once that said that if you have a hypothetical couple that only has two kids, and those kids only will be assumed to have 2 kids in ideal conditions, that variables such as infertility, non-marriage, mortality, etc. will probably insure that in 4 generations there will be NO genetic descendants from the original 2 parents.

I have a REALLY hard time believing this. Would you please provide a source?

I guess you didn't want to answer Maureen's question about how many YOU have.

←

Actually, in Italy, because of people not having as many kids, they are worried that within 50 to a hundred years (can't remember the exact number of years given), there will be no living full-blooded Italians living in Italy. It is because Italians have been having 1, maybe 2 kids, (the average was 1.2 kids per family) and so the population was dying off. No new kids coming along.

If you two kids per family, they are, in essence, taking the place of the parents when they die: 2 for 2. So in that case, the population would remain steady, no decrease, no increase. In order to increase, the average would have to be more than 3. As it is, they are only having 1 child per two people, so 2 people die, leaving only one behind, therefor, no population growth and a sharp decline. The population is decreasing very fast, and they are very serious that the Italian population could become extinct. The government is trying to encourage couples to have 3 or more children with more funding and tax incentives.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

My husband is the 11th of 13 children; I am 1 of 2. We live in California with our 5 kids, and we are considered to have a HUGE family. When we were pregnant with # 3, we were always being asked if we were done, because 3 is also considered to be fairly large.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Please,

In my hubby's very large family, they were never treated like slave labor. They all had chores to do, but their mother is the hardest working woman I have ever known. She is incredible. And yes, the older ones babysat when they were needed, but it was not excessive. All of them (with the exception of 2 who had to adopt, and 2 or 3 others whose husbands wanted small families) they all have 5 or more. In fact, is the older siblings who have the most kids. My husbands family grew up loving and appreciating each other, and loves babies and kids. Many of my brother-in-laws have grandchildren of their own now, but they love and adore my kids just as much as any of theirs.

Just thought I would tell the good points of having a large family.

[dizzysmiles]

Sure can do Maureen, If you get the book The Miracle Of Forgivness by our late prophet Spencer W. Kimball it states it in there. let me find it. Im not saying people are siners for putting off children, im just reading the book.. here we go..iT is chapter four talking about idolatry the name is These things doth the Lord hate " Young married couples who postpone parenthood until their degfrees are attained might be shocked if their expressed preference was labeled idolatry. their rationalization ives them degrees at the expense of children. Is it a justifable exchange? who do they love and worship- themselves or God? Other copuples, recognizing that life is not inteded primarily for comforts, ease, and luxuries, complete thtyeir educations while they move forward with full lives, having children and giving church and community service" (Miricle of Forgivness pg 41, second paragraph.) Sorry if it is mispelled my kids are trying to type as well. I am 3 out of 7 and I love kids to death , i loved babysitting all the time. THe oldest are twins and so i was pretty much stuck with the babysitting, and housework I used to call myself Cindy for cinderella, but i wouldn't trade anymoment of it. With a big family we were also taught for christmas that we didnt have a lot and when we didnt get much or gave to someone else ,. those were the best xmas's. Now my husband has 8 and he is number 6 he doesnt want a huge family he feels like he got the shaft when they had him so i guess it all depends.